wheel alignment - toe settings

[gbang007]

i got new tyres put on after my last ones were chewed through at the front.

i got an alignment done and the guy suggested i get a camber kit to stop the wear. the inner shoulder of the fronts were worn down. the rear tyres wear seemed even and fine. they quoted me about $1600 for a front kit installed.
anyways, here is the printout of the alignment.
from researching, my camber is bad, but my toe is even worse hence the inner shoulder wear at the front?
i am also lowered on koni yellows on the lower perch and eibach pro kit.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc104/gbang007/al.gif


p.s. - got the tyres damn cheap - $909 fitted balanced and aligned for re-001 215/40/17

[chargeR]

Your camber is not that bad. Was that alignment printout after they had done their work? It appears nothing has changed.

With -2 camber at the front and zero toe uneven wear should be negligible. I am currently at around 25,000 Kms on a set of RE001 with half of the ks at -1.5 front camber and the other half at -4.6 and they should last another 10,000kms. Camber is good:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8688/cambersigpu2.jpg

Also the price they quoted for fitting parts to correct the camber is way too high.



from researching, my camber is bad, but my toe is even worse hence the inner shoulder wear at the front?


You are correct in thinking that fixing the toe is your primary issue.

[Zdster]

They are quoting how much for a camber kit???? That is a scam and a half! Consider that you can pick up most camber kits for a few hundred dollars and labour might cost you $100 . . .

Its hard to tell, but your camber doesnt look that bad. Take it somewhere with a good knowledge of what they are doing and get them to set you toe as close as possible to zero - that will aleviate most of your wear then all you need to do is rotate the tyres.

[gbang007]

yeh i know the quote was ridiculous.

they also put in the wrong vehicle type

[eg5civic]

they did the same with mine man

put in 1.5L and 89-92... and they left the rer left toe at +3mm and told me it couldn't be adjusted on their as there were no adjusters on my Eg

[gbang007]

so the toe is adjustable? coz other than shocks and springs, everything else is stock.


They are quoting how much for a camber kit???? That is a scam and a half! Consider that you can pick up most camber kits for a few hundred dollars and labour might cost you $100 . . .

Its hard to tell, but your camber doesnt look that bad. Take it somewhere with a good knowledge of what they are doing and get them to set you toe as close as possible to zero - that will aleviate most of your wear then all you need to do is rotate the tyres.

[vinnY]

toe? yes
camber? no

front toe is controlled by the tie rods afaik
and the rear adjustment is connected to the trailing arms i think
i hope you didn't pay for work that wasn't done properly
if you did then i'd be taking it back and demanding the job be done properly

[gbang007]

im fairly noob with toe n camber stuff. from the print-out though, doesn't look like anything has changed in the toe setting but is the target difference the amount they tried to adjust it by? im gonna go elsewhere anyway, somewhere where they know what they are doing more

[iced]

rear camber is too much.

there is too much toe in at the back.
you dont need that much toe in.
for stability you probably 1mm toe in. 2mm total toe in

front has too much toe out.
toe out makes the front of the car wander around like shit.
set it to zero toe.

BTW from the sheet it looks like they didnt touch shit.
its same before and after.
thats whacked mate.


rep me if i was of help :)

[aaronng]

im fairly noob with toe n camber stuff. from the print-out though, doesn't look like anything has changed in the toe setting but is the target difference the amount they tried to adjust it by? im gonna go elsewhere anyway, somewhere where they know what they are doing more

I hope you didn't pay for that alignment, because the before and after readings are almost the same!!!! :thumbdwn:
Ask for 0mm total toe at the front, and +1mm total toe in at the rear. You can't adjust camber without a camber kit.

[Zdster]

I hope you didn't pay for that alignment, because the before and after readings are almost the same!!!! :thumbdwn:
Ask for 0mm total toe at the front, and +1mm total toe in at the rear. You can't adjust camber without a camber kit.

I agree with aaronng. Try to get your toe as close to zero as possible to avoid uneven tyre wear.

[gbang007]

yeh i paid for that alignment, not going back there again - bridgestone tyre centre. i dont have a camber kit but thinking of getting one - but not from bridgestone as they quoted me 1700 including install lol. i am gonna go to fulcrum to get them to adjust the toe first. you reckon i should get a camber kit? or should just getting the toe correct and rotating be enough?

[aaronng]

yeh i paid for that alignment, not going back there again - bridgestone tyre centre. i dont have a camber kit but thinking of getting one - but not from bridgestone as they quoted me 1700 including install lol. i am gonna go to fulcrum to get them to adjust the toe first. you reckon i should get a camber kit? or should just getting the toe correct and rotating be enough?

You realise that when you ask for a wheel alignment, you should also tell them that you want them to use your own alignment settings? I did this at a Bridgestone Tyre Centre, and they adjusted it to what I wanted, with me standing near the adjustment monitor screen.

Get your own camber kit and get it installed at a workshop. Not at Bridgestone.

[Eclipsor]

I said it in your other thread too but check out Goodyear at Northgate. Ask for Caleb. He's been doing mine for the last few years while I've been going through all sorts of issues. He has also done a few mates with various caster/camber kits and very low civics.

I wouldn't worry about the camber kit. That shouldn't be too bad.

[gbang007]

yeh alright. i am going to get an alignment with them tomorrow morning. will have a talk to them.

[55EXX]

so my eg would have oem adjustable toe on the rear then? and your suggestion for setting would be 0 toe front and +1mm total rear? so to my understanding the 0 front provides best wear and the rear promtes more oversteer so how much does 1mm total or .5mm really make a difference handling vs. wear?

[TALEB TYRES]

what was their reason for not doing any adjustments?

I know that if we cannot do a proper w/alignment, we tell the customer why, is something bent?did they tell you it was all good?

go back and show them the printout and ask the mechanic that did the work what happened exactly and why he didnt adjust it.

even if he was working off the computer specs, which is the main thing to do unless you give your own specs, they havent done anything really.
do it asap

[chargeR]

so my eg would have oem adjustable toe on the rear then? and your suggestion for setting would be 0 toe front and +1mm total rear? so to my understanding the 0 front provides best wear and the rear promtes more oversteer so how much does 1mm total or .5mm really make a difference handling vs. wear?

Yes your EG will have adjustable rear toe. Zero toe at the front should give good tyre wear and toe in at the rear generally gives straight line stability. I agree with aaronng's toe recommendations, and I would not bother with a camber kit for less than -3 degrees. Having more camber front than rear will probably make your car handle better anyway.

[55EXX]

so is that 1mm toe in or out when you say +1mm toe?

i understand toe in more stable/straight line and toe out more unstable for better turn in and better to create over steer in the rear.

so for street you would have ned toe front and toe in on the rear?

and how much difference does 1 mm toe in on the rear make?

[aaronng]

+1mm means toe in. -1mm means toe out.
Stock Hondas usually have +2mm total toe in on the rear for stability. I just reduced mine to +1mm total toe in (+0.5mm on each side) and that small reduction of 0.5mm on each side makes the car feel more willing to turn.

[hotout]

did this at a Bridgestone Tyre Centre, and they adjusted it to what I wanted, with me standing near the adjustment monitor screen.


need an alignment, which branch would u recommend?

[gbang007]

i got my alignment done again. my rear toe is now +1mm total and the front is +2.9mm total. He said that if i were to go 0mm at the front and +1mm at the rear, it would wear the inner shoulders like no tomorrow, he said he would put those settings if i really wanted, but then i told him to just set what he reckons is best for a short while. Camber is still the same, FL is -.34, FR is -1.36, RL is - -2.2 and RR is -2.5

The inner shoulder of the right is gonna wear first so i can either rotate continue to rotate or get a camber kit which i am leaning towards. what do you guys reckon?

[aaronng]

i got my alignment done again. my rear toe is now +1mm total and the front is +2.9mm total. He said that if i were to go 0mm at the front and +1mm at the rear, it would wear the inner shoulders like no tomorrow, he said he would put those settings if i really wanted, but then i told him to just set what he reckons is best for a short while. Camber is still the same, FL is -.34, FR is -1.36, RL is - -2.2 and RR is -2.5

The inner shoulder of the right is gonna wear first so i can either rotate continue to rotate or get a camber kit which i am leaning towards. what do you guys reckon?

I would have asked for 0mm front toe regardless. Another tyre shop told me the same thing, if he put 0.5mm toe out at the front like I asked him to, the tyre would wear prematurely. I told him to do it and 6 months and 10000km later, the wear is even.

[aaronng]

need an alignment, which branch would u recommend?

I used the blacktown branch. Store owner is Steve, good stuff. Call him up on the day to ask if you need to make an appointment and tell him you want your own settings. When you reach there, just tell him you called earlier about the alignment using your own settings. He will remember. The guy who does the alignment (dude with long hair, a little quirky) is good at it. And he will set it up ask you asked him to. When it is all done, he will ask you first if you are happy with the settings before taking off the alignment equipment. :thumbsup:

Also, Trivett Honda at Blacktown send any alignment work out to them to do.

[gbang007]

yeh.dammit! anways, so my question is, do you guys think i should get a camber kit for the front or just get the toe set again to 0 front and like 1mm in at the rears and just leave it at that and rotate the tyres? i dont want to have to be rotating tyres every month but i don't mind doing it like every 5000kms or something like that if my camber isn't that bad. otherwise i will get ingalls camber kit. so many decisions - i just dont want to have to replace my tyres again. and i got good ones too this time and im a poor uni student lol

i will probably just get it aligned again but with the settings you guys said. hopefully the wear should be indifferent with the camber. Can they adjust the camber to make it worse or even it up? ie make the front left more even with the front right?



I would have asked for 0mm front toe regardless. Another tyre shop told me the same thing, if he put 0.5mm toe out at the front like I asked him to, the tyre would wear prematurely. I told him to do it and 6 months and 10000km later, the wear is even.

[dynosaur]

so , does anybody know what is the best (aftermarket) camber & toe settting for dc2r ? (Front & Rear)

(mainly for last longer the tyres)

thanks

[vinnY]

go stock if you just want good tyre wear

[gbang007]

i know camber is not adjustable but can they alter it slightly to make it more even? ie my FL-.34 and FR is -1.36 and i want it more even for more even wear

[aaronng]

i know camber is not adjustable but can they alter it slightly to make it more even? ie my FL-.34 and FR is -1.36 and i want it more even for more even wear

No camber kit, no camber adjustment. Have you considered adjusting the height of the front corners to see if it changes the camber?

[JohnL]

i know camber is not adjustable but can they alter it slightly to make it more even? ie my FL-.34 and FR is -1.36 and i want it more even for more even wear

'Not adjustable' does mean not adjustable without modification of some sort.

1° is a lot of difference side to side, has the car ever been in an accident? Short of fitting camber kits, it is possible to change the camber angle by modifying the upper wishbones by means of elongating the holes where the WB attaches to the chassis bushes (i.e. the holes in the WBs not the bushes).

The WB mounting holes can be filed with a 'rats tail' file to increase or decrease either negative or positive camber (allowing the WB to be moved in or out, in effect shortening or lengthening the WB). The degree to which the holes must be elongated to achieve X change in camber is dependant upon the distance between the upper and lower ball joints.

As an e.g., on my CB7 Accord the distance between upper and lower ball joint centres is 470mm (not an exact measurement as the locations of each ball joint centre must be estimated, which is good enough for this purpose), and the camber will change by 1° if the upper wishbone is (in effect) lengthened or shortened by 8mm.

Note that this also works for changing the caster angle, i.e. if you move either the upper or lower ball joint backward or forward by 8mm then caster will change by 1° (or very close to it), so long as the distance between upper and lower ball joints is 470mm.

Don't assume that these numbers will be the same for your car, you will need to measure the distance between ball joint centres, then you need to do some drawings to discover how much of a change in effective WB length will result in what camber angle change. Note that any angular change in the KPI angle will result in an identical change in the camber angle (KPI being the inward lean of a line drawn between upper and lower ball joints, as caster is the rearward lean).

When modifying upper WBs in this way (i.e. elongating the mounting holes), you may find that additional filing / grinding on the WB may be needed to allow clearance to the chassis bushes (or rather, the metal housings in which the bushes are housed), and possibly clearance to the chassis itself.

[55EXX]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JohnL again.

i'd rep you but i can't. gold info again man! what alighnment setting would you advise someone to get in a civic for street and track use? camber toe and castor?

[string]

You might be able to wiggle the rear crossmember a few mm across to even out the front camber - it's highly likely that if it has ever been removed it hasn't been centred perfectly, the bolt holes are huge! Combined with moving the front crossmember you can make small adjustments to all the "hard-coded" alignment settings but it's a pain in the butt.

[gbang007]

okay i got a wheel alignment today again to 0 front toe and 1mm total rear. How come the readings from todays settings prior to the alignment being done are nowhere close to the previous alignment done two days ago? ie total rear toe was like 3mm after alignment on sat but back to something crazy like 7mm total today again. the also said a couple of my bushes need to be replaced. may that contribute to it?

[JohnL]

Wasting your time and money doing alignment with flogged out bushes. In other words, yes that's why the two alignments showed different numbers.

[mocchi]

so whats the toe, camber, caster setting on an eg? stock

[yuentinlon]

i am going to do the wheels alignment tomorow and i really want to know

is it a good setting for a stock EG with king superlow springs

front [L & R] +/- 0.00mm and 0.00mm

rear [L & R] + 0.5mm and +0.5mm

is that right ???