Alignment settings differences

[55EXX]

i got a wheel alignment today and from info on ozhonda i went 0 toe front and 1mm total toe rear. now the funny thing on the readings is that is i have 0.7 and 1 degree more camber on the right side front and rear respectively.

the even more weird thing is it says that my front RHS caster angle is +0.52 degrees and the LHS -0.07 degrees. is this just wrong?

[JohnL]

i got a wheel alignment today and from info on ozhonda i went 0 toe front and 1mm total toe rear. now the funny thing on the readings is that is i have 0.7 and 1 degree more camber on the right side front and rear respectively.

Camber should be 0.5° (preferably less) difference side to side at each axle line.


the even more weird thing is it says that my front RHS caster angle is +0.52 degrees and the LHS -0.07 degrees. is this just wrong?

"Wrong" in what sense? It's wrong for the car to have those caster numbers, i.e. very little caster on the side with the most caster, and for all intents and purposes zero caster on the other side. You have almost no 'trail' because you have almost no caster. I'll bet your steering is very light and vague...?

Less likely but not impossible is that the aligment was performed wrongly and/or the equipment was faulty.

Really, you want as much caster as you can get (and less than 0.5° difference side to side). In most cases the limit to increased caster isn't dynamic, but rather is down to the mechanical limitations of the suspension, i.e. how much is physically possible to achieve (i.e. caster) without virtually redesigning the suspension or causing mechanical problems not directly related to the actual caster angle, but rather what was needed to be done to achieve that caster angle (this may include such things as bushing misalignment and introduction of bump-steer etc).

High caster angle gives more precise and responsive steering with a stronger 'on-centre' feel, and better steered camber angles at both the left and right front wheels (i.e. the caster causes steered camber changes that are advantageous, more so with more caster).

The more caster you can run the less static neg camber is generally required, which is a good thing because a lot of static neg camber isn't all good. High static neg camber can impair front wheel grip under brakes, and cause the IF camber to be very poor indeed when cornering (static neg camber + body roll angle = IF on corner of the tread), affecting front grip in such a manner that it may cause / contribute to corner entry understeer.

But before you do anything, fix any suspect parts and re-check the alignment settings...

[55EXX]

my steering does feel light but i have a centre pull in the wheel. i assume the test wasn't correctly done as this reading does not feel true to me as i drive. if there is anything i know a fair share about it is suspension. next mods are rear sway and more front caster angle using the whiteline shim system.

what are your opinions on this KCA301 whiteline kit (http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/instructs/158_KCA301.pdf)

my question is it worth replacing bushes first as from my reading on the net most info says it is not really worth getting a too detailed alignment with gone bushes but what bushes would be most important to replace as instead of all of them?

sorry 1 last question but to the alignment settings what would you suggest?

i am a fairly laid back daily driver with alot of highway stuff but love a little sprint through some roundabouts and corners etc. i love enjoying my car on mainly mountainy runs, no track, where i cautiously slow up for corners but power hard out of them once i see the track ahead. fast cornering speed is non top priority but more so turn in and aliveness.

the settings i am contemplating but are am unsure of are .5 degree front camber .8 rear. approx +2 degrees castor using whiteline shim kit. front total toe 0 and rear 1mm due to plenty of highway driving and the want to be stable at high speeds, although i know this kills the aliveness. suspension will comprimise of pedders red low springs (unknown rate) kyb agx adjustable shocks whiteline 24mm solid front sway and 24mm solid adjustable asr with brace rear. i will be getting adjustable camber kit too not sure of what yet tho... any suggestions?

[JohnL]

next mods are rear sway and more front caster angle using the whiteline shim system. what are your opinions on this

I have no experience of this product, but see no reason why it wouldn't work (though in theory the shims ideally ought to be tapered and not 'flat' to allow for angular change between the lateral and longitudinal suspension arms as the caster angle is increased).

I would suggest using the full set of shims to get as much caster as possible. Note that increased caster will increase steering weight, but unless you've disabled the power steering it shouldn't be an issue.

Note that on some Hondas the upper wishbone isn't symmetric (as viewed from the side), with the upper ball joint being a bit forward in the WB. Because of this, if you swap the upper WBs side to side then the upper ball joints will be farther back (relative to the lower ball joints) than stock, resulting in an increase in caster angle.

This particular mod will also result in the outer ends of the steering tie-rods being lowered slightly, which in theory could introduce some degree of bump steer. I don't know if this would be a significant issue as I haven't tried the WB swap mod (I would expect any such problem to be slight), but if it were significant then it's easy to swap the WBs back.


my question is it worth replacing bushes first as from my reading on the net most info says it is not really worth getting a too detailed alignment with gone bushes but what bushes would be most important to replace as instead of all of them?

It's not worth doing any mods if the bushes are flogged out, but you only need to replace bushes that are in poor condition. There's no point in replacing a bush that is in good nick unless you are wanting to replace it with an alternative bush with different properties (e.g. replace rubber with polyurethane etc). I'm not recommending that you replace rubber for poly, rubber is best for hassle free road use.

IMO, about the only place where you might want to use poly bushes on a road car would be for ARB bushes, which will make the ARBs act 'earlier' (i.e. the ARB itself will begin deflecting sooner and the chassis will 'see' it sooner, rather than the soft rubber 'delaying' things), and make the chassis a bit more responsive, as well as reducing roll angle somewhat.


sorry 1 last question but to the alignment settings what would you suggest? i am a fairly laid back daily driver with alot of highway stuff but love a little sprint through some roundabouts and corners etc. i love enjoying my car on mainly mountainy runs, no track, where i cautiously slow up for corners but power hard out of them once i see the track ahead. fast cornering speed is non top priority but more so turn in and aliveness.

You sound somewhat similar to me in the sort of road driving you want to do. I want a road car with a responsive 'sports' car type of handling, not a race car that can generate massive G forces (having said that, I do like to be able to maintain a reasonably fast corner speed). Racing is what karts are for...


the settings i am contemplating but are am unsure of are .5 degree front camber .8 rear.

Typically, you want less neg camber on the rear than the front, which helps with reducing understeer. However IMO you want to be careful of having too much front camber, but -0.5° isn't much at all. I'm running about -1.5° (front) on my CB7 (rear about -0.8°, which is stock). Just be relatively conservative for a road car and you can't really go wrong, race car settings are another animal (race cars on the road can be occasional fun, but are a total pain most of the time).

Caster is one setting where more is generally better. Many 'performance' cars will have around 10° or so, and some racing sedans have up to 20° of caster (which is massive). Caster increases steering weight, the thing that makes high caster angles possible is good power steering...


approx +2 degrees castor using whiteline shim kit. front total toe 0 and rear 1mm due to plenty of highway driving and the want to be stable at high speeds, although i know this kills the aliveness. suspension will comprimise of pedders red low springs (unknown rate) kyb agx adjustable shocks whiteline 24mm solid front sway and 24mm solid adjustable asr with brace rear. i will be getting adjustable camber kit too not sure of what yet tho... any suggestions?

I have front and rear toe both at zero. I haven't played with this much, but the car is far from unstable, i.e. zero rear toe won't make the car unstable and is the ideal setting for wear. My steering is very nice at zero front / rear toe, the car is quite responsive with good steering feel, but not 'darty'.

A very important consideration here is tyre pressure, don't be afraid to try high psi, I run my tyres at 45psi (near stock size tyres on my car = 185/65/15, stock = 195/60/15).

I think you want significantly more than 2° caster if you can get it. I don't actually know what my caster angle is now, but it's at least 5° (about double stock), and probably a bit more. I've done several things to increase the caster, and one of them includes mods to the front radius rod rubber bushes (and associated crush tubes) which increases how much the bushes compress when the front nuts are tightened, but I don't know by how much (this affects the position of the lower ball joint and thus the caster angle).

The most important thing for stability (other than toe and caster settings) is strong damping action from the 'shocks'. Dampers are fundamentally important (i.e. it's more important to have good dampers than good springs), only use good quality ones (I'd recommend Koni or Bilstein, much better than KYB or any other).

That's a monster rear ARB, are you really sure that you want such a big stiffie? It will be hugely stiff (i.e. nearly rigid) and will affect ride quality, might cause snap oversteer in some situations, and may tear the subframe. I'd be thinking more along the lines of a 19mm rear ARB with the stock front ARB, it's not wise to be extreme when setting up a road car.

I doubt you'll need a camber kit. IMO you might need a camber kit if you drop the car on it's guts (well, any substantial lowering), but you sound too sensible to do that...

[55EXX]

I would suggest using the full set of shims to get as much caster as possible. Note that increased caster will increase steering weight, but unless you've disabled the power steering it shouldn't be an issue.

so you wouldn't try the lower sttings and go the full 11 shims with the kit and not try other settings. i want harder steering! power steering take alot of the fedd back out of it and so to the fun.


Note that on some Hondas the upper wishbone isn't symmetric (as viewed from the side), with the upper ball joint being a bit forward in the WB. Because of this, if you swap the upper WBs side to side then the upper ball joints will be farther back (relative to the lower ball joints) than stock, resulting in an increase in caster angle.

on my list of mods to do when i get a weekend day free to do that and install the caster kit in one go save having to get the wheel alignment twice for toe after each time.


There's no point in replacing a bush that is in good nick unless you are wanting to replace it with an alternative bush with different properties (e.g. replace rubber with polyurethane etc). I'm not recommending that you replace rubber for poly, rubber is best for hassle free road use.

what i was leaning towards was nolathane or poly bushes. what is cons besides increase noise and vibrations? the sway poly bushes come with the sway kit ;)


I want a road car with a responsive 'sports' car type of handling, not a race car that can generate massive G forces (having said that, I do like to be able to maintain a reasonably fast corner speed). Racing is what karts are for...

agreed... or your track dedicated pig with the trims teared out alignment setting that would chew tires for everyday driving etc. a noisy hot unpleasant car to be in but great to thrash. not a road car.




Typically, you want less neg camber on the rear than the front, which helps with reducing understeer.

hence the larger rear sway. i found in past cars more neg camber in the rear better for controlling oversteer and hence the toe in on the rear also ( in addition to highway stability). quite the opposite of the conventional toe out and less camber to increase over steer i have just uprated the rear sway and calmed it down using alignment. what are the flaws in my theory?


Caster is one setting where more is generally better. Many 'performance' cars will have around 10° or so, and some racing sedans have up to 20° of caster (which is massive). Caster increases steering weight, the thing that makes high caster angles possible is good power steering...

it also increases feed back to me through the wheel as you can feel the tyres grip. the steering lightens during understeer etc the more feed back the better! good to let go of the wheel and it straighten itself up.

rally cars are in the 30's for particular courses!




I have front and rear toe both at zero. I haven't played with this much

try the toe out in the rear. at .8 degrees neg camber it shouldn't be too tyre scrubbing


A very important consideration here is tyre pressure, don't be afraid to try high psi

i have 215/45/15s and run 39 front and 37 rear due to weight and am happy with this for the feel/comfort. would the tire pressures be to increase/decrease over/understeer, say increase over steer overinflate the rears to decrease the contact patch etc would there be better ways tho? i would understand tyre tread temp but that doesn't apply so much for street tyres and road as it is high g's any plenty of consecutive turns.


The most important thing for stability (other than toe and caster settings) is strong damping action from the 'shocks'. Dampers are fundamentally important (i.e. it's more important to have good dampers than good springs), only use good quality ones (I'd recommend Koni or Bilstein, much better than KYB or any other).

i will look into that at a much later date when i wear these kyb's out.


That's a monster rear ARB, are you really sure that you want such a big stiffie? It will be hugely stiff (i.e. nearly rigid) and will affect ride quality, might cause snap oversteer in some situations, and may tear the subframe. I'd be thinking more along the lines of a 19mm rear ARB with the stock front ARB, it's not wise to be extreme when setting up a road car.

i had a 24mm front and 22mm rear on hardest setting on my last civic and was happy with that. i am from the school of street cars = soft spring stiff sways. wheels followed the undulations in the road with soft spring but roll roll is reduced dramatically.

i liked the off throttle oversteer coming out of roundabouts and other slower speed corners. never gone fast enough to get too sideways. power on weight shift has always saved the day.

scary tho when you need to stop quick mid corner tho! hence the cautiously slow up for corners and power out lol. was thinking of a 27mm front item like that of the ctr etc to balance it out. i love the rear sitting completely flat out of corners and having it there to throw around little fun stuff. tight corners are much quicker and fun to off throttle mid corner and step your arse out in line for the straight.

ride quality i don't mind so much. still on soft stock eg5 seats and plenty on tyre between rim and road to suck up bumps enough for me.

thanks John been tons of help now and in the threads i've been reading!

[JohnL]

so you wouldn't try the lower sttings and go the full 11 shims with the kit and not try other settings. i want harder steering! power steering take alot of the fedd back out of it and so to the fun.

I can only speak from my personal experience with increased caster on my CB7 Accord. The more I managed to get the better the steering became (with power steer working), and I have a lot more than a 2.5° increase. I'm happy with the steering weight and feel as it now, and would expect it to become very heavy without PS.

Keep in mind that there are two factors affecting steering weight with increased caster; the increase in trail that also occurs with increased caster, and the fact that increased caster causes the IF wheel to lower more (relative to the chassis) as the steering is turned. This 'lowering' means that the driver is physically lifting the front of the car through the steering (which takes a force input from the driver). This 'rising' affect is also invoved with self centring action (as well as weight and feel) because the chassis mass is always trying to find it's lowest point ('pulled' down by gravity), which occurs when both front wheels are pointing straight ahead.

The OF also rises with steering input (more so with more caster), but because of the KPI angle the OF 'rises' less than the IF 'lowers' (KPI causes both front wheels to 'lower', and Ackerman causes the IF to steer more than the OF, thus lessening this jacking effect further at the OF). This means we have a lowering effect at the IF that consists of the caster effect + the KPI, but at the OF it's the caster effect - the KPI effect, and the sum wheel lowering affect is a lot stronger at the IF than wheel rising effect at the OF.

I have a friend who's just bought an EG Civic hatch, and we intend playing with the caster on that once we've sorted the other suspension issues. As it stands the steering is very very light / vague and could do with a substantial increase in weight and on centre feel. I think we'll do the caster first, and then might see what happens if we disable the power steer. It might become onerously heavy...?

One of the nice things about high caster angle is that it promotes a kind of auto opposite lock effect, i.e. when you get oversteer the front end almost on it's own counter steers into the corner that assists the driver to better correct the oversteer.


on my list of mods to do when i get a weekend day free to do that and install the caster kit in one go save having to get the wheel alignment twice for toe after each time.

If you're just experimenting to find how much this might affect steering weight etc, then you could just do it to get an idea, then align it or return it to stock depending on how you like it. I'm fairly sure that slightly lowering the end of the steering arm (as will occur if you move the upper ball joint backward to increase caster) will result in some slight increase in toe-out (or less toe-in), but not much(?).


what i was leaning towards was nolathane or poly bushes. what is cons besides increase noise and vibrations? the sway poly bushes come with the sway kit ;)

Squeaking/creaking, and the need for maintenance, i.e. cleaning and relubrication occasionally. Keep in mind that poly bushes (that actually pivot/articulate) should be fitted with zero play, but also zero preloading of the bush material, ie. not squashed in any way as this at the very least tends to squeeze out the lube.


agreed... or your track dedicated pig with the trims teared out alignment setting that would chew tires for everyday driving etc. a noisy hot unpleasant car to be in but great to thrash. not a road car.

But the bills for a track kart pale in comparison to the bills for a track car, which isn't to imply that karting can't become very expensive if you get the 'serious' bug (and you will if you're any good at it!).


hence the larger rear sway. i found in past cars more neg camber in the rear better for controlling oversteer and hence the toe in on the rear also ( in addition to highway stability). quite the opposite of the conventional toe out and less camber to increase over steer i have just uprated the rear sway and calmed it down using alignment. what are the flaws in my theory?

Whatever actually works (more than one to flay a cat), but some solutions work better even if more than one solution is effective.


it also increases feed back to me through the wheel as you can feel the tyres grip. the steering lightens during understeer etc the more feed back the better! good to let go of the wheel and it straighten itself up.

IMO, for a road car it's all about how the car feels to drive, not haw fast it actually is, i.e. does it put a smile on your face or is it hard work.


rally cars are in the 30's for particular courses!

I'm surprised it's that much! You can often see the rearward lean of the strut on many rally cars, and it's certainly a lot in most cases!


try the toe out in the rear. at .8 degrees neg camber it shouldn't be too tyre scrubbing

Some time. What my car really needs is a stiffer rear ARB more than anything else. I'm currently running minus the front ARB, which works very well and causes less roll motion than you'd expect (Konis set quite stiff help here, at least in non 'roundabout' type corners). Once I have the rear ARB I'll try refitting the front one.


i have 215/45/15s and run 39 front and 37 rear due to weight and am happy with this for the feel/comfort. would the tire pressures be to increase/decrease over/understeer, say increase over steer overinflate the rears to decrease the contact patch etc would there be better ways tho? i would understand tyre tread temp but that doesn't apply so much for street tyres and road as it is high g's any plenty of consecutive turns.

I use the higher psi mostly to improve steering response, but haven't found any unwanted affect on grip or wear. Keep in mind that I don't have what could be called 'low profile' tyres (bigger car budget required!). What psi works best for you and your car depends on personal preferance and lots of experimentation with the particular tyres fitted.

My tyres have a fairly soft sidewalls (hard / impossible to find 'sportier' tyres in the stock size), and the only way to make soft sidewalls behave acceptably is to pump them up.


i will look into that at a much later date when i wear these kyb's out.

Of course if the current dampers are reasonably good and not worn out, I wouldn't be replacing them in a hurry either! I have Konis because it made the most sense when it came time to replace all four 15 year old originals, new ones from Honda quoted about $1400, lesser quality replacements about $700, or Konis at $850 ($100 under list). What's known as a 'no brainer'...


i had a 24mm front and 22mm rear on hardest setting on my last civic and was happy with that. i am from the school of street cars = soft spring stiff sways. wheels followed the undulations in the road with soft spring but roll roll is reduced dramatically.

Agreed (though my stock CB7 springs are very soft, could easily be half a stiff again I think without being too stiff), but 24mm still seems a LOT of rear ARB for a road car...


i liked the off throttle oversteer coming out of roundabouts and other slower speed corners. never gone fast enough to get too sideways. power on weight shift has always saved the day.

IMO could still be dodgy mid corner on less than smooth roads...


scary tho when you need to stop quick mid corner tho! hence the cautiously slow up for corners and power out lol.

I rest my case Your Honour...


was thinking of a 27mm front item like that of the ctr etc to balance it out. i love the rear sitting completely flat out of corners and having it there to throw around little fun stuff. tight corners are much quicker and fun to off throttle mid corner and step your arse out in line for the straight.

Some body roll is a good thing. It gives driver feedback and warning of impending grip loss. Super roll stiff set ups can be very unforgiving...


ride quality i don't mind so much. still on soft stock eg5 seats and plenty on tyre between rim and road to suck up bumps enough for me.

I agree with avoiding very low profile tyres. Racing cars (and very high performance road cars) that do use very low profile tyres do so mostly in order to fit very large diameter rims, in order to be able to fit very large rotors, not because the low profile tyre is inherantly better then a more conservative profile (not too high a sidewall though). It's a compromise designed to allow very strong braking perdformance

Problem is that very low profile tyres have become a strong fashion that some customers insist upon for looks and a misguided perception of higher performance, so many car manufacturers pander for the sake of sales (probably against the advice of the engineers, i.e. the marketing department has more clout...). How many cars do you see with huge rims wrapped in rubber bands, but tiny little rotors lost in the wheel void? Silly!

[55EXX]

thanks John i'll digest this all and re assess my plans i think. i've already thinkin of down sizing my rear sway to the 22mm asr rear 24mm front like my whiteline setup on my last car, which i enjoyed. i can use the adjustable rear sway, dampers and alignment to fine tune thereafter. caster increase is a definate go and stock bushes except for the sways is the go.

i really don't like big rim + rubber band tyres. i'd rather see a set of lightweight wheels with semi slick rubber :) i can still remember this stock everything evo at the car wash. not totally sleeper status car but it had semis on and it just made the car! made you think man this thing must be a total scalp claimer.

thanks again man! been a great hand! i've repped you and anyone else reading this rep the man!

[Alexx]

Great thread guys, very informative. leant alot here.

tried to rep you both but i have to spread it around :o

[string]

Increasing caster increases steering effort not "feel". In fact the opposite is true. More caster will make it more difficult to detect slipping in the tyres.

[JohnL]

Increasing caster increases steering effort not "feel". In fact the opposite is true. More caster will make it more difficult to detect slipping in the tyres.

My understanding is that 'on the limit' steering feel is created at least partially by changes in pnuematic trail, and it can be argued that a lessening of steering feel can be caused by a lessening of steering weight as lateral grip loss is approached (i.e. it's this change in steering weight as a result of decrease in pneumatic trail near / at the limit of lateral adhesion that creates the 'on the limit' steering feel).

Adding a lot of mechanical trail (as will occur when caster is significantly increased) may create enough steering weight that the lessening of steering weight caused by the reducing pneumatic trail (as lateral grip loss is approached) may be masked, so in this respect it may be that higher levels of caster might reduce 'on the limit' steering feel (i.e. by masking steering weight changes).

However, 'on the limit' isn't the only sort of feel. Increased caster (and the increased mechanical trail that accompanies it) causes the steering to feel more communicative at less than racing speeds, so tends to make the steering feel more 'sporty' in real world driving.

I have maybe triple the stock caster on my CB7, and the steering feel in normal use is certainly way better than with the stock caster angles. 'On the limit' I have no trouble feeling the onset of understeer, though there is somewhat less 'warning' of grip loss than stock. However, the steering response with more caster is also much better than stock, everything is a compromise...

Keep in mind that high levels of caster have a real and beneficial affect on steered camber angles, and that even say 10° of caster isn't much in a racing application these days, and a reasonably common sort of level in 'sportier' road cars...

[55EXX]

an increase over my stock near zero caster is going to increase feel dramatically in my car at the moment! the pushing back to straight of the wheel round corners is what i want. whether you call that feed back or sportier feel it what my car needs. to me the push back is lessened during under steer hence why i call it feed back. i know the wheels are slipping because i now feel it it the wheel and more so if i were to increase caster to a point no doubt.

[JohnL]

The 'mechanism' of the increase in weight is mostly a function of the increase in 'trail' that accompanies an increase in caster.

Think of a shopping trolley 'caster' (which in fact has no caster angle whatsoever, but does have a lot of trail). The 'steering axis' (the axis around which the wheel turns when the wheel is turned) relative to the nominal centre of the contact patch creates a 'virtual lever arm' starting from the point at which the SA intersects the ground to the centre of the contact patch, and the longer this virtual lever arm (i.e. the greater the trail) the stronger will be the tendency for the contact patch to follow behind behind the point where the steering axis intersects the road.

This also means that the effort required to deflect the contact patch from this position behind the steering axis / road intersection point will need to be greater, hence the increase in steering weight and the stronger the self centring action. the steering will feel like it's more 'springy' at / near the straight ahead, 'wanting' to more strongly remain at the straight ahead position.

Because the contact patch(es) has grip on the road, this affect of trail (i.e. the 'virtual lever arm') means that a steering input must not only turn the wheel but also physically move the front of the chassis laterally toward the direction in which the car has been steered, which requires a greater force input from the driver at the steering wheel. This affect is stronger the greater the trail (i.e. the longer the lever arm) happens to be, and tends to sharpen up steering response (though in very slippery conditions may instead cause the contact patch to slip sideways as low contact patch grip pushes against the lateral inertia of chassis mass, so may be a 'bad thing' in very slippery conditions, possibly causing some loss of front grip at turn in).

When cornering (i.e whan a lateral acceleration exists) so long as the front contact patches retain grip the lateral forces involved (to keep the front wheels at X position) will be fed into the steering to the steering wheel through the virtual lever arm, creating weight at the steering wheel. When lateral grip starts to drop away the lateral force being fed into the steering through the lever arm lessens and the driver feels a lessening of steering weight, which is what the more sensitive driver interprets as approaching grip loss at the front wheels.

[string]

What do you value more, feeling you are under-steering or feeling that you are approaching that limit but not quite there yet?

The feedback from the total trail is proportional to the lateral force. You'll get to the limit then BAM, under-steer. That's great and all but if you need the steering wheel to feel that you are under-steering then you have problems bigger than your car.

The aligning torque from pneumatic trail peaks before the lateral force does. Lateral force can still have a little bit left and you are given warning.

55EXX: The feeling you are describing simply "just happens" unless something is wrong with your car (and stock caster is not something wrong). You don't need excessive caster, you just need to be producing a decent amount of lateral force. No offense, but realistically your car is either just slow around corners, or you are giving it hackish inputs. All cars will under-steer horribly and generally feel nasty around corners, if you don't drive it well - especially a front-wheel drive.

I don't think you should be worrying about caster. It's not going to make your car magically handle well - if you aren't disappointed after all the hyping JohnL has given you then you have way too low expectations for handling :D
Camber force for street tyres is pathetic. Get load on the right tyres then worry about a few degrees of camber.

But fix up your caster. Anywhere from 1-5 it won't matter just make sure they are even left and right.

[JohnL]

We seem to have a difference of opinion on this. I do know from personal experience how much substabntially increasing caster angle has improved the handling and pleasure of driving my car.

Many car manufacturers are using much higher levels of caster than they were even a few years ago (especially on 'high performance' variants), only possible with the use of power steering. Many suspension / steering specialists increase caster as a means of improving steering feel and increasing the steered camber changes that occur when the front wheels are steered. Serious racing sedans and rally cars typically run large caster angles.

I recall that there's an article on the Whiteline site to do with the benefits of increasing caster angle.

[55EXX]

that feed back john was talking about is what i am talking about. i can feel without that i am understeering but it is multiplied by the caster i feel. the spring back to centre and increased steering effort also adds to the sportier feel.

as for performance "Get load on the right tyres then worry about a few degrees of camber" by this do you mean with roll resistance?

[string]

You are both right, well, we all are because we aren't really arguing with each other; however I am guilty for arguing for the sake of arguing, it is simply my nature. Clearly each of our vehicles have a different focus. I am not particularly interested in street performance, if it happens it is a side-effect of track performance (though usually the two don't go hand in hand - a fun street car won't be fun on the track and vice-versa).


We seem to have a difference of opinion on this. I do know from personal experience how much substabntially increasing caster angle has improved the handling and pleasure of driving my car.

After thinking about your specific vehicle I can see why this happens. In your car you have more weight transfer at the front than the rear, and with stock springs, it will be quite high in magnitude? Either way you have more front body roll (and thus camber loss) than a rear-stiff setup which is less sensitive to camber change (as front weight transfer is minimized). If your suspension is anything like mine, the roll centre becomes so horribly low near full compression that tyre-rollover is inevitable in standard trim (that nasty under-steer 'grind' that is felt, and probably what 55EXX is feeling).



Many car manufacturers are using much higher levels of caster than they were even a few years ago (especially on 'high performance' variants), only possible with the use of power steering. Many suspension / steering specialists increase caster as a means of improving steering feel and increasing the steered camber changes that occur when the front wheels are steered. Serious racing sedans and rally cars typically run large caster angles.

I recall that there's an article on the Whiteline site to do with the benefits of increasing caster angle.
In terms of FWD race cars, still shots show only small ammounts of negative camber under full roll. Those cars run so close to the bump stops at the front that you get excessive body roll and thus camber loss. Caster is a beautiful thing then as you can just gain it back.



as for performance "Get load on the right tyres then worry about a few degrees of camber" by this do you mean with roll resistance?

I mean that it is far more important to have the correct load over the correct tyres than to worry about camber angle. You can gain far more lateral force by optimally distributing the load over the tyres than anything else if your starting with a stock car.

My point is that camber isn't some magical property that gives you huge grip. On a street tyre you simply want it to be vertical under load. On a stock-ish FWD Honda, any extra grip you can get on the front is great, but only if that's all you want. You need to define your requirements before you make any decisions. In the end, caster is just a tool to get the tyres and load where you want it and when.

[55EXX]

yeah i agree camber is the last point of call and should be used to optimise grip once all areas have been maximised. hence once my springs dampers arb's are done and sufficent i then use alignment to 'fine tune' by changing alignment angles to increase/decrease usable contact patch and toe to create livelyness at either ends but in my instance keep at zero for wear.

the other reason i want more caster is i scrub the very outer edge away from the throwing her through tight turns and understeer and tyre roll. will see how this goes once the rear sway is fitted for the amount of understeer and tyre's wear. increasing dynamic camber will hopefully lessen this while increasing turn in.

24mm rear sway is what i decided now just gotta find one online. no oz sellers. will decide on front sway once it is on.