spark plugs + wires. NGK?

[xenonkuraz]

I'm looking into replacing my sparkies and the wires. I have found NGK iridium plugs and ngk wires. But I'm wondering is it worth it to spend more for the NGK branded wires?

[dsp26]

if you get it at these prices i got em for then yes they are worth it :p

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82980&highlight=plugs

[CRXer]

how much were the leads ron,save me popping links everywhere?

i want some bling blue

[dsp26]

how much were the leads ron,save me popping links everywhere?

i want some bling blue

i ordered both sets (as the ngk set went in the mrs dc4) and the vision 10.2mm measured lower resistance per foot (tested cyl1 and cyl4 lead).

Vision one is cheaper at only US$49.99 WITH x4 ngk iridum BKR6EIX-11.

from memory shipping is around US$29.99 for most small items but i rarely order only one item from that shop... that shop alone is my source for:
- camber kits
- gates racing silicon hoses and belts
- ignition
- fuelling
- cam gears
- reservoir covers
- low temp fan switch & thermo
- towhooks

direct shop link is since the links in the other thread are dead:
http://stores.ebay.com/autodinamics_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsQ3amesstQQt Zkm

[CRXer]

that is quite cheap,thanx man,been on the PC all day & its starting to give me a headache.......

[dsp26]

that is quite cheap,thanx man,been on the PC all day & its starting to give me a headache.......

no worries:thumbsup:

in case you haven't checked out the store yet the ngk lead + plug set is like US$77

[CRXer]

does he def ship to aust,is this who you used,it just says US?

[dsp26]

does he def ship to aust,is this who you used,it just says US?

definite.

at the top it says Ships to Worldwide but he only quotes actual shipping cost to US at the bottom as shipping to other countries vary.

best ask the seller, he's usually punctual with his replies.. but like i said most single items ship for around US$29.

When i paid US$49 shipping i had ordered:
- camber kit for front + rear (heavy)
- gear knob
- external coil dizzy cap setup
- reservoir covers

this seller is probably the only honest shop i've come across when it comes to shipping as it is very consistent to a specific size and weight limit... whatever he can fix in a certain box size/weight combo you pay the one shipping price.. he doesn't do dodgy discounted shipping like other stores.

[cristian]

d15 and d16's use the same kits yea?!?

[dsp26]

d15 and d16's use the same kits yea?!?
sorry neighbour can't answer that one for ya....

best to just check out the top gun or ngk website to see if part numbers are the same.. then off you go and order from that online store.

[VTec1987]

Hey dsp26

so 10.2mm vision spark leads not good?

[dsp26]

Hey dsp26

so 10.2mm vision spark leads not good?

they are good.. measured lower impedance/resistance than NGK.. though not by much... point is its cheaper and performs the same.

[IZY-10]

the only problem is when you increase the diameter of the line you decrease the line impedance. Honda designed the ignition system with a set impedance. So since the line impedance has now changed you will fowl the spark plug arching area

[VTec1987]

So its better than using oem leads? Or would brand new Oem leads will work better?

[IZY-10]

So its better than using oem leads? Or would brand new Oem leads will work better?

oem work best. However people only get them for looks. They look pretty cool in the engine bay

[dsp26]

oem work best. However people only get them for looks. They look pretty cool in the engine bay

thats true most times but when it comes to leads.. the visions have lower resistance so oem isn't best in this case.

but either way, for the price.. think of it as "Buy Ngk plugs, get free leads"

[CRXer]

cheers ronny,i'll look in to it.


the only problem is when you increase the diameter of the line you decrease the line impedance. Honda designed the ignition system with a set impedance. So since the line impedance has now changed you will fowl the spark plug arching area

Larger diameter leads are not necessarily directly proportional to a decrease in line impedance.

You have to take into consideration the construction of the leads.

If u do indeed have your own science lab at home to formulate the reactive component of impedance,taking into consideration the different permeabilities,reluctances to different flux densities of different materials( which even change at different rates with changing frequency) present in the differently manufactured leads,made up of even differently laid up layers of different materials,then i'll take your word for it.

they arent all straight say copper cables,where even the number of strands & different grades of copper can work against your reasoning.

The easiest way to measure impedance is too.....well.......measure it.So do u have all the different impedances listed for all the different leads that we can have a look at?

boy...........have i really got a headache now...........

[IZY-10]

well in this case the impedance is lower. And lower impedance does not mean they are better. That is like saying a RL of 8ohms is better then 32ohm when in fact it can cause damage to your system if it is designed for a load impedance of 32ohms. trust when once you change the Zo you alter all the calculations of the system

[Limbo]

d15 and d16's use the same kits yea?!?


no but they have D series kits. It got mine from there also

[CRXer]

well in this case the impedance is lower. And lower impedance does not mean they are better. That is like saying a RL of 8ohms is better then 32ohm when in fact it can cause damage to your system if it is designed for a load impedance of 32ohms. trust when once you change the Zo you alter all the calculations of the system

hmmmmmmm........just as i suspected......an audio guy with overgeneralised understanding of line impedance.....

i repeat...........how do you know the reactive component present in each DIFFERENTLY CONSTRUCTED lead?

or are u basing this all on a simple,yet insignificant drop in line resistance?

[dsp26]

hold up hang on.. so IZY-10 is using the basis of audio? that is understandable in that case but completely wrong for for high voltage (like 40,000v) ignition systems.

now i'm not an electrician and nor do i have access to that equipment that they have to check voltage pulses but CRXer is right.

larger diameter leads do not neccesarily mean a decrease in impedence.. heck if the vision lines were produced the same thickness as the ngk they will PROBABLY have higher line impedance because i measured them only slightly lower for the extra 1.2mm. Also the thickness measure is for the whole thing and not just the internal conductor. thicker silicon covers provide other performance benefits such as heat resistance and probably prevent possible static pulses in the ignition.

But when you look at the case of an ignition system.. the lowest impedance possible is the most desired.. a high impedance on leads leads to deterioration of components within the entire ignition system from coil to the icm to plug fouling. As an audio person you should know that energy that has been 'resisted' gets converted to heat and that heat converted energy is wasted energy. This is also why there are aftermarket coils that provide bigger spark

you will want as much of the voltage from the coil as possible to reach the plugs so that quicker ionisation between the tips is achieved sooner and more complete to provide the best possible spark possible from the oem ignition system. better spark equals better combustion, greater torque and better fuel efficiency even by that poofteenth amount

this is why sellers sell 'low impedance performance leads' advertsing stuff like 60% increase in power.. not neccesarily wrong.

lets say your average joe leads... oem may provide 1hp extra.. but the performance leads may provide 1.6hp on top of the average joe's. lower impedance, more voltage to make a better spark... better combustion of air/fuel ratios.

at the end of the day i am recommending the cheaper VISION leads that have the lower impedance because like i said:
- Think of the sale item as "buy plugs get free leads"

sure they have lower impedance but they MAY deteriorate quicker and build resistance quicker

[IZY-10]

hmmmmmmm........just as i suspected......an audio guy with overgeneralised understanding of line impedance.....

i repeat...........how do you know the reactive component present in each DIFFERENTLY CONSTRUCTED lead?

or are u basing this all on a simple,yet insignificant drop in line resistance?

no actually i'm that electronic/electrical guy. If you know much about engineering you will now what i am talking about. I have had thicker leads. And yes they where a lower impedance than oem. However if dsp26 is right and the core is of similar diameter and the rest is silicon then the change in impedance may be negligible. At the end of the day you cant go wrong with oem

[CRXer]

no actually i'm that electronic/electrical guy. If you know much about engineering you will now what i am talking about. I have had thicker leads. And yes they where a lower impedance than oem. However if dsp26 is right and the core is of similar diameter and the rest is silicon then the change in impedance may be negligible. At the end of the day you cant go wrong with oem

well in that case,remind me not to hire u then

engineering?????

impedance is electromagnetism & alternating current principles 101 for beginners

i repeat for the third time...........how did you know they were lower impedance???

[CB7_OWNER]

For my particular make/model F22a engine.... some guy on a forum (not from here) did some test's with NGk/ Ebay generics/ OEM / Multi Core Wires...

And results came out that the OEM wires provided the best spark...

As for Spark plugs...i'd use anything that platinum..ngk/denso/woteva lol

[dsp26]

For my particular make/model F22a engine.... some guy on a forum (not from here) did some test's with NGk/ Ebay generics/ OEM / Multi Core Wires...

And results came out that the OEM wires provided the best spark...

As for Spark plugs...i'd use anything that platinum..ngk/denso/woteva lol


what kind of testing? details?

only valid test would be direct voltage readings from the leads on a high voltage AVR oscilliscope because:
- it will read the exact coil/spark voltage of upto 40,000volts
- the oscilliscope shows the ignition pattern in like a graph format so you can even diagnose, ionisation, arc, etc...

[IZY-10]

well in that case,remind me not to hire u then

engineering?????

impedance is electromagnetism & alternating current principles 101 for beginners

i repeat for the third time...........how did you know they were lower impedance???

i have had a set of these leads for the THIRD time. I have measured the impedance and I measured a set of oem leads and I noticed the impedance was lower on the larger leads.

Tell me then what is the purpose of these leads if they dont offer a lower impedance then??? For bling?? and why do the companies adverties that it is eg. 11 strand core??

[IZY-10]

what kind of testing? details?

only valid test would be direct voltage readings from the leads on a high voltage AVR oscilliscope because:
- it will read the exact coil/spark voltage of upto 40,000volts
- the oscilliscope shows the ignition pattern in like a graph format so you can even diagnose, ionisation, arc, etc...

yes you are right this will be the only valid way of properly testing these leads

[dsp26]

i have had a set of these leads for the THIRD time. I have measured the impedance and I measured a set of oem leads and I noticed the impedance was lower on the larger leads.

Tell me then what is the purpose of these leads if they dont offer a lower impedance then??? For bling?? and why do the companies adverties that it is eg. 11 strand core??

i think the benefit of multi-core systems is only realised with upgraded ignition systems.

instead of the one strand deteriorating the multi-cores spread flow path and if say only one of the strands was deteriorating then the overall and gradual impedance loss isn't as severe.

IF i had the $$$ and had a choice between Spoon or Nology leads i would pick the nology simply because of dyno proven performance from the in-built capacitor system... the one big flaw was that these are known to have the quickest deterioration rate of any leads.. with many cases only having a 1yr lifespan... i had them for a short time with another car and quickly offloaded them with less than 1000km's because of this fact.. would have been more expensive in the end.. an aftermarket coil was used instead to achieve a similar thing.

[IZY-10]

i think the benefit of multi-core systems is only realised with upgraded ignition systems.

instead of the one strand deteriorating the multi-cores spread flow path and if say only one of the strands was deteriorating then the overall and gradual impedance loss isn't as severe.

IF i had the $$$ and had a choice between Spoon or Nology leads i would pick the nology simply because of dyno proven performance from the in-built capacitor system... the one big flaw was that these are known to have the quickest deterioration rate of any leads.. with many cases only having a 1yr lifespan... i had them for a short time with another car and quickly offloaded them with less than 1000km's because of this fact.. would have been more expensive in the end.. an aftermarket coil was used instead to achieve a similar thing.


that proves my point they are not designed for a oem ignition system. If you upgrade the ignition system however i beleive that they will be benefits

[dsp26]

^^but it's not detrimental and still provides benefits to a stock system.. it's given that any leads will always deteriorate over time and increase in impedance.

if anything it's still actually beneficial to have the multi-cores as it will probably deteriorate slower for that reason.

at the end of the day just a reminder to all... the VISIONS are a cheap replacement with no detrimental effects, but only possible benefits in the long run.. damn i should be their salesperson

[CRXer]

i have had a set of these leads for the THIRD time. I have measured the impedance and I measured a set of oem leads and I noticed the impedance was lower on the larger leads.

Tell me then what is the purpose of these leads if they dont offer a lower impedance then??? For bling?? and why do the companies adverties that it is eg. 11 strand core??

in no case have i argued the point of why companies market there leads in any manner whatsoever or what is the benefit of whatever specs your throwing out there.U were the one who seemed so intent on certain leads having lower impedance figures,so i asked how you knew this.

So for the FOURTH TIME how did you measure the impedances u are so sure about.

Like i said im keen to learn..........

[IZY-10]

in no case have i argued the point of why companies market there leads in any manner whatsoever or what is the benefit of whatever specs your throwing out there.U were the one who seemed so intent on certain leads having lower impedance figures,so i asked how you knew this.

So for the FOURTH TIME how did you measure the impedances u are so sure about.

Like i said im keen to learn..........

With a fcuken multimeter. How else do you measrure resistance?

[CRXer]

With a fcuken multimeter. How else do you measrure resistance?

hahaha,lol.

u measured impedance for spark plug leads with a multimeter............ohhhhh please stop...........my stomachs starting to hurt.........

i repeat for the FIFTH TIME how did you determine the reactive component of said impedance with a multimeter?

[cristian]

damn...unleashed the fury...

[CRXer]

no fury........just a simple case of avoidance of question asked

[F.O.B Squad]

Whoa!! Damn this thread technical. :confused: And I do electronics.

[IZY-10]

hahaha,lol.

u measured impedance for spark plug leads with a multimeter............ohhhhh please stop...........my stomachs starting to hurt.........

i repeat for the FIFTH TIME how did you determine the reactive component of said impedance with a multimeter?

its not the most conventional way to measure characteristic impedance of a line but when you take it into proportion with that of oem you will know what i am talking about. The only way to gain the absolute correct Zo is to obtain the data from the data sheet

just ti prove my point taken from the ngk website

Excellent Conductivity
The lower resistance (2-8 kΩ/m compared to 16 kΩ/m for common leads) offers superior conductivity.

http://www.ngkspark.com.au/tech_index.htm?http://www.ngkspark.com.au/pages/tech_info_leads_index.htm

what have you got say now crxer???

[dsp26]

^^ok specs... just fyi though, although their measured in meters, leads that exceed 10kohm per foot is considered dead/hindrance to performance

[CRXer]

its not the most conventional way to measure characteristic impedance of a line but when you take it into proportion with that of oem you will know what i am talking about. The only way to gain the absolute correct Zo is to obtain the data from the data sheet

just ti prove my point taken from the ngk website

Excellent Conductivity
The lower resistance (2-8 kΩ/m compared to 16 kΩ/m for common leads) offers superior conductivity.

http://www.ngkspark.com.au/tech_index.htm?http://www.ngkspark.com.au/pages/tech_info_leads_index.htm

what have you got say now crxer???

fark me................i give up...........i tried 5 times

my question has nothing to do with your perception/"falling for" marketing spiel(no dig at ngk or any other company intended as i dont have any facts,like this guy seems to have)

im simply doubting your understanding of impedance seeing as though u brought it up in the first instance,so if u want to just keep babbling in resistance figures then go right ahead,believe anything they market to you..........

[IZY-10]

fark me................i give up...........i tried 5 times

my question has nothing to do with your perception/"falling for" marketing spiel(no dig at ngk or any other company intended as i dont have any facts,like this guy seems to have)

im simply doubting your understanding of impedance seeing as though u brought it up in the first instance,so if u want to just keep babbling in resistance figures then go right ahead,believe anything they market to you..........


Yeah whatever, you can get a proper Zo by using a network analyzer and shorting the end so you get a reflected wave (assuming that it has a similar output impedance) .