how to tell if my car is running rich?

[johnny5]

i know this is a really noob question but how do i tell if my car is running rich? i'm changing spark plugs to NGK iridium but from what i've read it's no point if my car's running rich as it would still burn out or not be as effective anyway?

i'm guessing there will be white smoke from my exhaust? black smoke? i've got a apexi vafc which came with the car when i bought it. does that have anything to do with it? thats an air fuel ratio controller rite?

also, i'm guessing that it is NOT a good thing if my car is running rich? will the apexi vafc i have be able to rectify some of these problems?

[uniorj]

It's not a bad thing if its running rich either. Just too rich can put a hole in the pocket.

Yeah alot of black smoke(I'm guessing its black due to all the black stuff on the rear of my car) will probably come out. Cold starts could also be a problem depending on how rich its running (know this from experience, car is currently running quite rich and have to wash it nearly every week)

[johnny5]

actually, come to think of it, the car doesnt always start the first time (engine starts and then chokes and dies) which prolly means that my car is indeed running rich. i see white smoke when i start up the car in the mornings (could be due to the cold though). but my friend's car behind me when i hit vtec commented that the petrol/oil smell was quite strong. is that normal too?


It's not a bad thing if its running rich either. Just too rich can put a hole in the pocket.

Yeah alot of black smoke(I'm guessing its black due to all the black stuff on the rear of my car) will probably come out. Cold starts could also be a problem depending on how rich its running (know this from experience, car is currently running quite rich and have to wash it nearly every week)

[uniorj]

actually, come to think of it, the car doesnt always start the first time (engine starts and then chokes and dies) which prolly means that my car is indeed running rich. i see white smoke when i start up the car in the mornings (could be due to the cold though). but my friend's car behind me when i hit vtec commented that the petrol/oil smell was quite strong. is that normal too?

Same thing happens to me. Car chugs alittle on cold cold starts. People use to say it was my starter motor that made the start up abit funny but a guy from work commented on the fact that when it makes that clicking noise it means the starter motor is working(went abit off topic).

I vtec'd infront of my girlfriend two days ago and she said that heaps of stuff came out of my exhaust. I guess for a car that's running rich it could be normal but I have only had one car that has been tuned so I'm unsure. Other people should be able to put input into this thread.

[vinnY]

cross check the condition of your spark plugs with this guide (http://www.partsamerica.com/Maintenance/MaintenanceSparkPlugTips.aspx) and it should tell you a bit about how your engines health

[Nepolian]

You could unplug the vafc to see if its affecting the running rich or run a diagnosis on it.

[souperman]

take out your spark plugs and have a look
if they're really black, then you're prob running rich.

and smell your exhaust fumes...if u smell petrol..prob running rich. (dont sniff petrol on purpose though, it kills your brain:p)
but on cold starts it's normal for your engine to run a little rich

not sure about this last point. If you run rich, i'd assume your fuel consumption would be higher than normal.

[johnny5]

so far the car's in tip top condition. i did a compression test which was positive (phew) and the spark plugs were still good. but i did a full service just last month and when i went in last week to the workshop to change my suspension, the mechanic checked my engine oil levels and had to top up 1L!!! either kmart didnt top up the engine oil or my car is leaking a lot of oil. would my car running rich have anything to do with it at all??!??

[johnny5]

cross check the condition of your spark plugs with this guide (http://www.partsamerica.com/Maintenance/MaintenanceSparkPlugTips.aspx) and it should tell you a bit about how your engines health

i did a compression test which indicated it was all good and the spark plugs were still in good condition. however, its still pretty new (one month old) so i guess we'll have to wait and see eh.

I do not know if this is a related issue but i just did a full service at k-mart last month and when i went to fix up my new suspension last week the workshop guys randomly checked my engine oil level and was shocked to find that it was only half full! he had to top up 1litre! also, he told me that the wrong oil filter was used. would that be the reason why the engine oil level dropped so much? or is it because my car is running rich? or is it because kmart simply forgot to top up even though they said they did??!??

[schuebyTeG]

BUMP!

can some honda nerds :D plz continue. this is very interesting as im looking at a car with black smoke all over the back.....Its got a Skunk2 chipped ECU.....i duno if its bad or not....engine will last me ?

[dsp26]

BUMP!

can some honda nerds :D plz continue. this is very interesting as im looking at a car with black smoke all over the back.....Its got a Skunk2 chipped ECU.....i duno if its bad or not....engine will last me ?

****.... THAT.... SHIT!!!

thats your problem right there... i know coz i did it once upon a time for 6 months and kept getting ~300km out of 42litres even on cruising

that as well as all those other race chips out there like spoon/mugen, etc disable the O2 sensor and makes your car run in closed loop which is what you car runs on at WOT.

just take it out. if you think its cool that you can rev to 9200rpm then i'll tell you it's pointless.. i have dyno graphs of that chip versus stock showing a massive loss in midrange from the lower vtec x-over at 5200rpm and NO GAIN anywhere in the entire dyno curve.


***EDIT***
see the dip in the middle... BIG NO NO!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/dsp26/Maintenance/DSC00035.jpg

[dsp26]

To fix it either remove the actual chip AND disconnect J1.. diagram here:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91844&highlight=chipping


or get someone to provide you with a decent oem rom. i recommend the P30-J02 from the JDM B16a... very smooooth! PM ECU-MAN


OR get someone with CROME to burn you a new rom tuned to your car...

[dsp26]

I do not know if this is a related issue but i just did a full service at k-mart last month and when i went to fix up my new suspension last week the workshop guys randomly checked my engine oil level and was shocked to find that it was only half full! he had to top up 1litre! also, he told me that the wrong oil filter was used. would that be the reason why the engine oil level dropped so much? or is it because my car is running rich? or is it because kmart simply forgot to top up even though they said they did??!??

how much oil have you lost since? know where the loss in oil is going to?

and how do you know your car is running rich without going to a dyno or emissions test?

[VTECMACHINE]

Rich is good. More Torque, engine runs cooler, and it's much safer up high in the rev range. Also if you track, your car lasts longer during each session. Doesn't run out of steam after 2-3 laps like a lean tune does.
Do you know what A/F ratio you are running? I'm running 10.8 it's FTW!

[beeza]

Great to know.

[johnny5]

Rich is good. More Torque, engine runs cooler, and it's much safer up high in the rev range. Also if you track, your car lasts longer during each session. Doesn't run out of steam after 2-3 laps like a lean tune does.
Do you know what A/F ratio you are running? I'm running 10.8 it's FTW!

i'm not sure what A/F ration i'm running as the car came with the VAFC when i bought it. having said that, my car runs very cool and temp hardly goes up. maybe thats an indication of running rich?

Also, i read on another thread about the engine running cool but that had to do with the temp sensors, cold weather, etc... going off tangent here. lol!

I looking for a place that will tune my vafc for me as its currently set to engage vtec at 6000, 5500! Anyone in WA know a good place to recommend? also anyone know how much it would cost to tune? about $200/hour? and the job would take about 2 1/2 hours?






how much oil have you lost since? know where the loss in oil is going to?

and how do you know your car is running rich without going to a dyno or emissions test?



i really have no idea where the oil is going to as i have been placing cardboards under my car to see where its leaking but there is nothing. Two seperate mechanics have checked the underbody and found no leak or trace of a leak.

I'm not sure if my car is running rich thats why i started this thread lol. someone made a passing comment to me that it may be that my car is running rich and just wanted to check on the forum for your opinions.

[beeza]

You could PM 'scyt7e',David,he is over there and will know a good place to tune.

[johnny5]

You could PM 'scyt7e',David,he is over there and will know a good place to tune.

haha yea i know david. thanks. was just wondering if there was anyone else in WA who could help me out as well.

[beeza]

Yeah,top bloke!

[schuebyTeG]

hmmm

I hope its the chip......not the engine screwed or anthing ..? ( cos its stripped and been raped abit im guessing ).

I just dont wanna buy problems.... and the exhaust all over the back end dosnt look good at all.

hmmmm i cant rly uninstall the chip without buying it 1st ...

[94dc2tegz]

running rich isn't a bad thing like people have said. your engine is actually running at a slightly lower temp probably because the fuel isn't burning as efficiently as it should thus not producing as much thermo-energy as it potentially can. but at the end of the day that just = more petrol down the drain, not the end of the world.

this has completely nothing to do with the cool your talking about. your thermostat meter should not move at all! it should warm up in 5mins or so, even longer then for the oil in various places ie gear box and etc etc but lets just say it's a normal day, start it up drive for about 5mins and ur temp gauge should go from it's resting place and creep upto about or just past the 1/4 mark (for me it just sits at the very edge of the water temp picture just touching it) anyway once it's there it doesn't budge unless your over heating. so if ur temp is going up and down depending wen ur driving or stopped at the lights then yes, u need a new thermo. cuz wen ur's is broken ur engine thinks it's always needing to warm up and never allows it to reach full potential so that may be a reason y ur always running slightly rich.

anyway, it's normal to have shit coming of the exhaust during vtec and of course ur running 'rich' during vtec cuz... well thats exactly what it is.. ur dumping even MORE fuel into the engine during vtec. so alot of ppl get a puff of black smoke here and there - nothing to be worried about.

as for oil levels, yes yours are ridiculously low so either they didn't fill up enough or an oil fairy is stealing it from u at night lol. but vtec burns oil like no tomorrow so if your engine is old and ur vtecing at every light ur guna lose a bit of oil so always check it on regular intervals. you don't have to wait till the work shop guys randomly check ur oil levels for you.

end of the day dont' goto k mart man. go find a honda specialist.

[migoreng]

i notice my exhaust tips can't stay shiny for more than 2 weeks...
does it happen to you guys?
lol

[94dc2tegz]

thats so random?

[VTECMACHINE]

running rich isn't a bad thing like people have said. your engine is actually running at a slightly lower temp probably because the fuel isn't burning as efficiently as it should thus not producing as much thermo-energy as it potentially can. but at the end of the day that just = more petrol down the drain, not the end of the world.

this has completely nothing to do with the cool your talking about. your thermostat meter should not move at all! it should warm up in 5mins or so, even longer then for the oil in various places ie gear box and etc etc but lets just say it's a normal day, start it up drive for about 5mins and ur temp gauge should go from it's resting place and creep upto about or just past the 1/4 mark (for me it just sits at the very edge of the water temp picture just touching it) anyway once it's there it doesn't budge unless your over heating. so if ur temp is going up and down depending wen ur driving or stopped at the lights then yes, u need a new thermo. cuz wen ur's is broken ur engine thinks it's always needing to warm up and never allows it to reach full potential so that may be a reason y ur always running slightly rich.

anyway, it's normal to have shit coming of the exhaust during vtec and of course ur running 'rich' during vtec cuz... well thats exactly what it is.. ur dumping even MORE fuel into the engine during vtec. so alot of ppl get a puff of black smoke here and there - nothing to be worried about.

as for oil levels, yes yours are ridiculously low so either they didn't fill up enough or an oil fairy is stealing it from u at night lol. but vtec burns oil like no tomorrow so if your engine is old and ur vtecing at every light ur guna lose a bit of oil so always check it on regular intervals. you don't have to wait till the work shop guys randomly check ur oil levels for you.

end of the day dont' goto k mart man. go find a honda specialist.

Your stock water temp gauge should move around. If it does move, you thermostat is definately NOT broken. Who told you that man?

If you were to look at a Water temperature gauge, it would go up when sitting in traffic up to around 90 degrees (in DC2R), and then when your driving depending on temperature, it will go down to sayd 75-80 degrees. Same thing applies with the stock guage on the clutser. Depending if it's summer or winter, the water temp can vary alot, and the needle will move.

Also VTEC is not a mechanism for dumping fuel into the engine.
And, not all VTEC engines burn oil... only screwed ones. My DC2R on 105,000km's doesn't burn a drop of oil - even on track days. If your burning oil, it's either PCV system, piston rings or leaky oil filter/sump plug/ sump gasket. Take the car to Honda man.

Generally if you are running VERY rich, you can tell. It's normal to blow a bit of black smoke out of the exhaust in VTEC. Not Blue or White though.

[johnny5]

Your stock water temp gauge should move around. If it does move, you thermostat is definately NOT broken. Who told you that man?

If you were to look at a Water temperature gauge, it would go up when sitting in traffic up to around 90 degrees (in DC2R), and then when your driving depending on temperature, it will go down to sayd 75-80 degrees. Same thing applies with the stock guage on the clutser. Depending if it's summer or winter, the water temp can vary alot, and the needle will move.

Also VTEC is not a mechanism for dumping fuel into the engine.
And, not all VTEC engines burn oil... only screwed ones. My DC2R on 105,000km's doesn't burn a drop of oil - even on track days. If your burning oil, it's either PCV system, piston rings or leaky oil filter/sump plug/ sump gasket. Take the car to Honda man.

Generally if you are running VERY rich, you can tell. It's normal to blow a bit of black smoke out of the exhaust in VTEC. Not Blue or White though.


Ok, this confirms that water temp gauge is not broken as it does go up when i'm sitting at the lights and goes back down again once i start crusing again. Also, i've been closely monitoring my engine oil levels and i'm NOT losing any. I have been putting cardboard lining beneath my entire car in my garage after every drive and not a sign of oil leak anywhere. THATS A HUGE RELIEF!

I got a OEM Map Sensor over the weekend [THANKS DAVID! :thumbsup: ] Shouldnt be too hard since its just a matter of screws? I have been told to be careful when installing it as the lining or something beneath the map sensor breaks easily or something like that? Will update you all again once i've replaced it. *fingers crossed* :D

[VTECMACHINE]

Ok, this confirms that water temp gauge is not broken as it does go up when i'm sitting at the lights and goes back down again once i start crusing again. Also, i've been closely monitoring my engine oil levels and i'm NOT losing any. I have been putting cardboard lining beneath my entire car in my garage after every drive and not a sign of oil leak anywhere. THATS A HUGE RELIEF!

If the water temp guage was broken it would just sit at the bottom. ir it would be stuck somewhere. If it's moving that's good... it's working. If the thermostat is screwed the engine will either over heat, or over cool. Over cooling isn't a real bad thing IMHO.

[bfeboi]

u idiot of course over cooling is bad
the whole point of a thermostat is to raise the engine temperature to Normal Operating Temperature as fast as possible and maintain it at that temperature till the car is truned off. the reason why manufacturers make it so that car warm up faster is to make the engine more fuel efficient. wen a car is cold it use more fuel than a hot car.

running rich will cause black smoke cos of all the "unburnt" fuel coming out the back causing all the black residue on your bumpers and tailpipes.

burning oil is not a good thing either esp if ur topping up 1L each time.

if you have these problems get a scan tool and check the parameters of the engine. maybe you have a dodgey O2 sensor or dying map. no point throwing random suggestion around the net

[VTECMACHINE]

u idiot of course over cooling is bad

Running cool isn't a BAD thing. Yeah you use more fuel running a stock ECU, but if you're playing with cars and worry so much about fuel enonomy you shouldn't play with cars. ha ha.

What I meant was running cooler than a factory car isn't bad. My water temp sits at 68-70 degrees. If you have an aftermarket ECU, fuel on cold start etc can be varied.

[Spoon SiRG]

Imho,I suggest you get your thermostat changed. Once your engine warms up (the needle just touching the thermometer icon on your gauge cluster) it should stay there whether your sitting in traffic,driving in 60zones, or cruising on the highway.

I recently replaced mine because I noticed my temp drop on the highway & go back up to normal when I got into the city. I've had my DC2 for the past 4 years & its never done that. Now that it has been changed the temp just stays there regardless. :thumbsup:

And yes the black sooty stuff on the rear bar has lessened considerably (just getting black dots now,lol),which means that the engine is now running at its optimum temperature.

Regarding MAP & o2 sensors,are you getting a C.E.L. code telling you its faulty? So why change it?

Try to go to a dyno shop with a wideband o2 sensor (the one they stick in your tailpipe) to determine how rich your car is running,the tuner should be able to make you run as stoich as possible with your VAFC.

[woteva82]

the smell and if you know how your car goes and if it dosent run the same then yea.

[johnny5]

i'll get the thermostat replaced soon. pretty sure that would fix up the "cooling" problem. is there like a specific thermostat or can i get one from supercheap auto?

i replaced the map sensor over the weekend. will monitor my oil levels more closely now to see if it goes down anymore.