detination

[Redlinemotorsport]

hello.

i have a eg with a b16b.
recently i pulled the head off,
port polish and match to intake and exhaust.
Stage 4 buddyclub cams,
valve springs,
adj cam gears,
and retainers were put in.
Quad throttles were also put on.

i also have lightened flywheel
and lightened lower pully.

taking it to get tuned,
i have a very audible clicking sound when you rev the engine from idle,
then let off at around 1500 rpm.
the timing is right.
the cams have been dialed in.
anyone got any suggestions on what the detination is?
the tuner reckons that the mixtures are alright,
im running a hondata s300.
its not from the bottom end,
because i have driven the car for 30000 kms before i did the head.
any help would be appreciated.

[IEVAQ8]

who is tuning the car????????????????

i know it has nothing to do with it..................but i had same issue with my boosted b18c7...............

ticking noise (detonation) even whilst reving in nuterual gear

[Redlinemotorsport]

james from hondata is tuning.

[bennjamin]

why ask us here ? Ofcourse its "james" issue. He has to fix it. You are paying him to....take it back and complain.

[IEVAQ8]

james from hondata is tuning.

well he sure does know what he is doing..............

my issue was rear exhaust housing on turbo was too small, and the design of my dump pipe was cause too much back pressure and sending it back into the motor, hence detination...................

urs is NA................so u got different issues all together..................

i hope u work it out asap...............

james is pretty good with his work.,...................

[Redlinemotorsport]

problem is that he doesnt want to continue tuning it with the detination.
so i have to take it back from james (on a towtruck)
to my mechanic,
then when my mechanic finds the problem
truck it back to james.
i was just hoping that someone here with alittle bit of knowledge about this sorta thing could mean that i can fast track my mechanic to the problem

[IEVAQ8]

why ask us here ? Ofcourse its "james" issue. He has to fix it. You are paying him to....take it back and complain.

cumon ben..................................y point the blame..................

the guy is asking for advice...................not critism on the tuner.............

and if the tuner dont wanna continue tuning, there must be a reason...............

[Redlinemotorsport]

thanks.
thats right.
your milans friend arent u?
i know milan from hondatec.

i know that there is a reason,
and thats fine,
but alittle bit of help wouldnt go astray would it?

[IEVAQ8]

thanks.
thats right.
your milans friend arent u?
i know milan from hondatec.

i know that there is a reason,
and thats fine,
but alittle bit of help wouldnt go astray would it?

yeh im good mates wit milan........................

did u get ur car built at hondatech?????????????

if i had a solution for you, i would spray it...............but i unfortunatly dont...........

if the issue has arrised since the new head, or head work, i would go to the guys that built it, or put it together, unless it was you...............

its a pain in the arse.....................but hey, if it aint right to tune, it aint right to tune.........................

let us know how u go

[Redlinemotorsport]

a guy called steve built my car.
he now works at hondatec,
i know milan alil,
been on a few drives with milan.

the problem im getting is that james is saying that its the head installation,
and my mechanic is saying its the tune.
so yes.

[IEVAQ8]

mmmmmmmmmm...............from what james tells me it cant be the tune.............

im not a tuner myself, but i understand enough........................it may pay to take head off and check clearences and valves collets and double check it all over again...............

if it was a tuning issue, james would be able to fix it for sure..............

i have seen his work many times before.......................

thats my 2 cents

maybe someone else can give some advice...............and not slag the tuner

[2002 TeGgY]

i also vouche for james and his work, top bloke and top tuner. it is for sure an installation issue...

[grumpy rooster]

Had a similar issue once. It turned out to be the cam timing was way out. Is it VERY responsive down low but flat up top? If so, retard the cam timing.

I know you said the cams have been dialled in but check it again. The other possible cause is valves hitting the pistons.

[Redlinemotorsport]

nah it almost seems to be the other way round.
lag down bottom.
kickass up top.

[Slaz]

How much has your head had off it since going back together and the cams being set and did your builder check all of the above, it would be very easy for James to throw fuel/timing into it causing the noise to stop if it was in the tune, especially at such low rpm if its that audible.

As said before by others, your piston to valve and or cam timing sound like your issue.

Hope it turns out to be an easy fix. :thumbsup:

[fatboyz39]

so bottom end didnt get touched?

Sound like cam timing. Search on Honda-tech, ppl having alot of trouble to dial in spec 4 camshafts. They need to be at the exact specs as BC on the sheet.

Off topic, why did you choose spec 4 camshafts? Also what quads?

[Redlinemotorsport]

so bottom end didnt get touched?

Sound like cam timing. Search on Honda-tech, ppl having alot of trouble to dial in spec 4 camshafts. They need to be at the exact specs as BC on the sheet.

Off topic, why did you choose spec 4 camshafts? Also what quads?

there was no cam timing on the sheet of paper that i was given?

[Slaz]

So how were they dialed in and set? :confused:

[Redlinemotorsport]

So how were they dialed in and set? :confused:

they were set by the tuner?
dont ask me how?
could this be the cause of the detination?
that the cams need to be dialed in perfectly?

[fatboyz39]

they were set by the tuner?
dont ask me how?
could this be the cause of the detination?
that the cams need to be dialed in perfectly?

tuner sets them? dont think so. Go back to your mechanic and get them installed correctly. Sounds like you need a new mechanic that knows his shit.

[Redlinemotorsport]

tuner sets them? dont think so. Go back to your mechanic and get them installed correctly. Sounds like you need a new mechanic that knows his shit.

jesus.
im not asking people to rubbish the people i take my car to for christ sake.
if u dont have something intelligent to say then stfu.
i dont need to hear that my mechanic is shit.
or that the tuner is shit.
or why i went buddyclub cams.

i asked about a detination problem.
not your opinion on how i build my car and where i take it.

[IEVAQ8]

just to clarify something to you guys........................

from what james (the tuner said) it is running at -4 degrees. the most retard u can run...............and it will only idel at air fuel ratio 11.1

so our assumption is, cams not properly installed??????????

p.s. Redlinemotorsport, im not blaming anyone, from the start u will see i am clearly trying to get u a solution and some help...............

i hope it all works out...............ohh.............next time u decide to get it tuned.............pm me, i'd love to come down and have a chat.............

[Slaz]

Redline, you asked the question re your detonation and from the sounds of it it lies with your mechanic who i assume built the engine but surely worthwhile asking him, exactly what he has set the cams to and without any BC paperwork with suggested specs why he has set them where he has, and if he cant give you a decent answer or isnt that clued up on dialing cams in, seek someone who does, there shouldnt be any offence taken to that as it seems where your problem lies.

Looking forward to you getting it sorted and seeing some pics and outputs of your engine, looks like a strong set-up. :thumbsup:

[B18cEG]

I think a question that should have been asked earlier is the ticking/clicking/tapping noise consistant and timed? roughly how many click per second? does it speed up with higher revs and so on.

Thanks

[fatboyz39]

jesus.
im not asking people to rubbish the people i take my car to for christ sake.
if u dont have something intelligent to say then stfu.
i dont need to hear that my mechanic is shit.
or that the tuner is shit.
or why i went buddyclub cams.

i asked about a detination problem.
not your opinion on how i build my car and where i take it.

why so defensive? Your cams are out and are NOT DIAL in properly. Hope your mechanic fix the issue and get it sorted.

[Benson]

Dont be such a stooge and get your mechanic to check out your nugget..

[fatboyz39]

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/2332646

[Redlinemotorsport]

I think a question that should have been asked earlier is the ticking/clicking/tapping noise consistant and timed? roughly how many click per second? does it speed up with higher revs and so on.

Thanks


no the click is only once.
when u let off the throttle at about 15 hundred rpm.
one very loud, audible click, thats all.
once you get about a few thousand the clicking stops?

[barefootbonzai]

definitely doesn't sound like a tuning issue.

[Redlinemotorsport]

thanks :)

[dsp26]

thanks :)

i think you owe some people here an apology though.... just a thought...

[Redlinemotorsport]

i think you owe some people here an apology though.... just a thought...


what for?
for saying that i asked a question and all people do is either rubbish the tuner,
or rubbish my mechanic?
people should try and stick to the topic of the thread.
rather than say 'get a mechanic that knows his shit'.
and this is the first time ive seen you comment on the problem of detination
?

[fatboyz39]

what for?
for saying that i asked a question and all people do is either rubbish the tuner,
or rubbish my mechanic?
people should try and stick to the topic of the thread.
rather than say 'get a mechanic that knows his shit'.
and this is the first time ive seen you comment on the problem of detination
?

Detination = Detonation

[Redlinemotorsport]

ya that'd be right.

[B18cEG]

No need for apologies or anything, does sound like detonation, maybe the cam timing needs to be double checked, let us know how it goes.

Thanks

[ZeForce]

what for?
for saying that i asked a question and all people do is either rubbish the tuner,
or rubbish my mechanic?
people should try and stick to the topic of the thread.
rather than say 'get a mechanic that knows his shit'.
and this is the first time ive seen you comment on the problem of detination
?

I dont mean to 'jump on the bandwagon' here, but if you did have a mechanic and tuner that actually knew what they were doing, then you wouldnt need to be asking for help from random ppl on a internet forum.....

[dsp26]

what for?
for saying that i asked a question and all people do is either rubbish the tuner,
or rubbish my mechanic?
people should try and stick to the topic of the thread.
rather than say 'get a mechanic that knows his shit'.
and this is the first time ive seen you comment on the problem of detination
?

me? i didn't need to, from your very first post and everyone elses reply your problem had nothing to do with detonation... just to add to the lingo the slang term for it is "knock" because it literally sounds like knocking when the mixture pre-ignites when the piston goes up on the 2nd stroke before hitting TDC. detonation is rare while the car is idling or not under load.. and when you do get it under load the car/engine whiplashes/surges.. and yes i know what it is and feels like coz i used to play with dizzy timing without a timing light (yes we all do dumb things when we were once noob)

I was actually waiting for you to provide more detail and hopefully a sound clip as my car was also making strange noises after Buddy Club Spec 3+ install.. but pretty sure mine is the dizzy bearing...


put it this way, no-one was slandering your mechanic/tuner... it's out of genuine concern for you as a customer.. even the best of performance workshops can make the most minute mistake causing disaster, the logical thing to do is to get the people responsible to check right? ever put something together and it doesn't seem right? a new shelf or bed or dog house maybe? you'd pull it apart a few steps to double check...

detonation is mostly an A/F or tune issue which rules out your tuner first... naturally on a public forum.. you tell us the issue, we do the process of elimination for you.. simple. peoples answers and replies are only as good as the input and information you provided.... had you said all this started happening after the tune then thats a different story... but still, the sound you describe and consequence is NOT detonation.

[dsp26]

I am curious though.. you never answered Post#15..

was your head shaved? coz you didn't mention it in your original post... just FYI... every 0.040in requires you to advance both cam gears +1 (2deg @crankshaft) and thats a rough calculation to reset the cams... that is a very educated calculation based on all the research i've personally done as well as confirmation of my build completed by a very competent builder having reset the cam timing before doing the additional adjustment to the intake advance specified by Buddy Club (+2 intake on BC3+)

[Limbo]

Also detonation is usually consistent, tapping at a certain RPM & load, not one once in a while

[Redlinemotorsport]

the detOnation only happens at when letting off the accel at around 1500.
not all the time.
and no my head was not shaved.

[bennjamin]

you might be thinking of a misfire ?

[grumpy rooster]

the detOnation only happens at when letting off the accel at around 1500.
not all the time.
and no my head was not shaved.

Its not going to "detonate" under deceleration. Something mechanical is wrong (ie something physical is hitting, grinding, vibrating). If it doesn't do it under load then nothing of what anyone has suggested is right.

Honestly mate, it sounds like you don't really have any idea how to describe it, let alone what it could be so I'd forget asking here and go and see your mechanic again and tell him to fix it. If he won't then take it to someone who will. You are not going to get any answers here.

[Redlinemotorsport]

Its not going to "detonate" under deceleration. Something mechanical is wrong (ie something physical is hitting, grinding, vibrating). If it doesn't do it under load then nothing of what anyone has suggested is right.

Honestly mate, it sounds like you don't really have any idea how to describe it, let alone what it could be so I'd forget asking here and go and see your mechanic again and tell him to fix it. If he won't then take it to someone who will. You are not going to get any answers here.


im only saying what the tuner said.
and i wish that u were in melbourne.
because it sounds like u know how to fix everything.

[TODA AU]

put it this way, no-one was slandering your mechanic/tuner... it's out of genuine concern for you as a customer..
*Cough*Bullshit...

why ask us here ? Ofcourse its "james" issue. He has to fix it. You are paying him to....take it back and complain.
Ben win's quickest on the draw to shoot James down without basis.


im only saying what the tuner said.
and i wish that u were in melbourne.
because it sounds like u know how to fix everything.
Mate, you're wasting your time with internet diagnosis.
Like it or not, there is a communication problem between what is actually occuring,
how you descrbe it & how this description is digested here online then vomitted back at you.
Just go back & talk to your mechanic, stay rational & sort it out.
It's pretty simple & everyone online can be none the wiser.

[Redlinemotorsport]

*Cough*Bullshit...

Ben win's quickest on the draw to shoot James down without basis.


Mate, you're wasting your time with internet diagnosis.
Like it or not, there is a communication problem between what is actually occuring,
how you descrbe it & how this description is digested here online then vomitted back at you.
Just go back & talk to your mechanic, stay rational & sort it out.
It's pretty simple & everyone online can be none the wiser.


thanks :)

[Slaz]

Did this get sorted, if so what was it and how did it go in the end?

[Redlinemotorsport]

going back to james tomorrow.

[IEVAQ8]

good luck man.........................hope it all goes well..........

what changes did u make???????????

[trism]

at least youre taking it back.

but too much shit talking and not enough straight to the point.

i dont care if its been said, ill repeat it for other people that might stumble on this thread in search for answers about detonation.

it occurs when then engine is under load, and the mixture ignites early, ie before the sparkplug fires. this can be down to tune, sparkplugs to high up in the heat range and other reasons.

it sounds like, a ping, or knocking noise.

it does not happen when reving in neutral

it does not happen when you back off

it happens under acceleration under load.

[IEVAQ8]

at least youre taking it back.

but too much shit talking and not enough straight to the point.

i dont care if its been said, ill repeat it for other people that might stumble on this thread in search for answers about detonation.

it occurs when then engine is under load, and the mixture ignites early, ie before the sparkplug fires. this can be down to tune, sparkplugs to high up in the heat range and other reasons.

it sounds like, a ping, or knocking noise.

it does not happen when reving in neutral

it does not happen when you back off

it happens under acceleration under load.

what u saying is true..............but i was having similar issues, where my dc2r turbo was also detonating when under load high in the rev range (you could clearly see it on the graph and hear it), and also whilst free reving in nuterual.....................

[trism]

yeah, but your detonation was due to the small back housing on the turbo forcing exhaust back into the cylinder ay...

that weouldnt happen with an n/a car lol

[IEVAQ8]

^^^^^^^^^^^^true ………………….just making appoint that in some situations, it can detonate when free reving………lol

[grumpy rooster]

yeah, but your detonation was due to the small back housing on the turbo forcing exhaust back into the cylinder ay...

that weouldnt happen with an n/a car lol


It can happen on an NA car. It was happening on the Hi-Comp Civic. Headers were way too small. On the dyno you could see where at the top end it would go very lean regardless of how much fuel you put into it. The exhaust gasses couldn't get out so it was "backlogging" into the cylinder. Changed headers to much bigger ones and problem solved.