strut bars/sway bars

[biee2]

hrmmm.....was at cybercentury, i think thats what they are called but yeah they had alot of sway bars and when i asked how much, it was lik onli 75 i think it was. i was just wandering compared to the cusco sway bar for the euro what would be the difference??? between the cheap no name one to the cusco one???.....

[Crapdaz]

prob higher tensile strength. <-- part of quality
quality and fitment is more well designed.

branded ones are more reliable and have undergone more R&D compared to unbranded or less common products/parts.

[EUR003act]

i have whiteline rear sway bar.... OMG best handling upgrade ever!

thats all i need to say...

[biee2]

i have whiteline rear sway bar.... OMG best handling upgrade ever!

thats all i need to say...

where can i get whiteline rear sway bars and about how much?

[Crapdaz]

you can either look at parts for sale/traders section or you can look up suspension places who are able to source them.

And your looking about about $200-260 for brand new.

[LXRY]

just do it.........

[EUR003act]

where can i get whiteline rear sway bars and about how much?

i got mine from Capital Sterring and Suspension (Canberra)... cost $220 :D

but im sure most suspension places will be able to order it in for you... i'd definately recommend it if your after bang for buck handling upgrade :thumbsup:

[aaronng]

You do realise that strut bars and sway bars are 2 totally different things?

[felixd]

which sway bar are the best for the euro the 18mm or the 22mm ? that you guys recommend and preffered with stock suspension setup and coilovers :) cuz ive heard sometimes when its to strong the swaybar it could snapped ???

[aaronng]

18mm with stock suspension. Progress 22mm with coilovers. But the front stock swaybar is too soft and upsets the balance.

[Crapdaz]

10mm stock bar with stock suspension - snapped left endlink
18mm whiteline with coilovers + Moogs endlinks
Now 22mm Progress with Moogs and coilovers.

Is there any front swaybar for the euro? and strut.

[Euro08Jaz]

yup, been looking into getting a combination myself.

H&R dont recommend the rear sway bar with out the front.

the H&R front strut is 28 mm and the rear is 20mm

neuspeed produce a combination consisiting of

a front sway bar of 27mm and the rear is 19mm.


being front wheel drive and having a front mounted engine seems to make needing a front sway bar to negate oversteer unnecessary

the way im going about looking for sway bars is not to induce over or understeer but find a bar that is flexible in its attempts to eliminate bodyroll, so far it seems the type of links used helps the most.

[aaronng]

yup, been looking into getting a combination myself.

H&R dont recommend the rear sway bar with out the front.

the H&R front strut is 28 mm and the rear is 20mm

neuspeed produce a combination consisiting of

a front sway bar of 27mm and the rear is 19mm.


being front wheel drive and having a front mounted engine seems to make needing a front sway bar to negate oversteer unnecessary

the way im going about looking for sway bars is not to induce over or understeer but find a bar that is flexible in its attempts to eliminate bodyroll, so far it seems the type of links used helps the most.
If you corner hard with the stock front sway bar, you still get a lot of front body roll even with coilovers... :( If anyone is going to buy the Neuspeed, I would be interested in taking the front half if it is cheaper to buy the kit. :p

[Suntzu]

Theres never been a good solid discussion about front sway bars, just rears.

The change of the rear sway bar is dramatic in terms of handling. I would think stiffening the front will result in more under steer( just like my rotax kart when you stiffen the front) especially with coil overs stiffening it up.

But I welcome a healthy and informed discussion on the merits of a front Sway Bar.

[Crapdaz]

imo the front is pretty stiff already from the front strut tower and if it produces more understeer preferably better not having it. As the euro has alot of understeer already.

[WPN.22R]

I can get sway bars if anyone needs them!

[aaronng]

The way sway bars work is that you increase the front sway bar thickness to increase steering response and reduce front roll to the level that you want. Then you increase the thickness of the rear sway bar to reduce the understeer that comes with the stiffer front sway bar. Most of us have been going around it the wrong way. And it shows on the track. I need a thicker front sway bar to improve my times because the car rolls so much that the outer tyre just scrubs and cries for help in tight corners.

[Crapdaz]

agreed, but you will most likely need to change the endlinks for those too, as they will definitely snap as FSB = alot thicker than rear about 27mm as someone said previously.

[acura_ek1]

i have whiteline rear sway bar.... Omg best handling upgrade ever!

Thats all i need to say...

x2!!!!

[aaronng]

agreed, but you will most likely need to change the endlinks for those too, as they will definitely snap as FSB = alot thicker than rear about 27mm as someone said previously.

Front sway bars are usually hollow.

[Crapdaz]

oh alright thanks, i didn't know that.

but still if my rear left endlink snapped with stock 100mm RSB then wouldnt be surprised if the front would snap instantly with the aft FSB.

[JohnL]

Not a Euro, but my CB7 handles significantly better after I took the front ARB out completely (less understeer). This results in less body roll increase than you'd expect, (but then I don't drive it very hard in corners, and my Konis keep transient roll under control, i.e. slow the rate at which roll occurs). Since this is so easy to do (and free), I think it's at least worth trying. Just remove the end links and wire the ARB up out of the way for experimantation. If you don't like it then just reconnect it.

[aaronng]

oh alright thanks, i didn't know that.

but still if my rear left endlink snapped with stock 100mm RSB then wouldnt be surprised if the front would snap instantly with the aft FSB.
100mm? WOW.... My stock RSB is 14mm. :p

[Euro08Jaz]

i really dont think the purpose of a well designed sway bar is to induce over or under steer, just to eliminate body roll, i think the problem with some designs on the market is that the marterial is 2 rigid.

i would imagine a well designed sway bar would have some degree of flexibility.

that being said i havent heard of many cases of people turning the car around with a rear sway bar.

also i think that a front sway bar only really suits people like arronng who track their cars and turn at high speeds where bodyroll would be a big factor. Someone like me might actually have more difficulty controlling my car.

[tony1234]

I can get sway bars if anyone needs them!
What brands/types?

[JohnL]

i really dont think the purpose of a well designed sway bar is to induce over or under steer, just to eliminate body roll,

I think there is at least something to that, at least with road cars where the spring rates are usually chosen for ride comfort above most other considerations, and thus would tend to allow excessive discomforting roll motion. But, note that stock road cars typically have either no rear ARB or a rather ineffective one, the purpose being to create relatively high front roll stiffness / low rear roll stiffness and thus create the strong understeering tendency that most car manufacturers aim for.

The same end could be more or less achieved by fitting relatively stiff front springs, but the front ride quality would probably become quite harsh (especially considering the increase in damper rate that would also be required with the stiffer springs). Fitting a stiffish front ARB will increase front roll stiffness but without impacting ride too heavily (at least less so than an equivalent roll stiffness increase using springs). The rear ARB (on road cars) may often most likely fitted more to allow softer rear springs without permitting excessive body roll than to change the handling balance.

However, in high performance applications the ARBs are very much used to fine tune handling balance, without having to resort to excessively stiff springs at one end of the car that could present problems in other areas of chassis dynamics.


i think the problem with some designs on the market is that the marterial is 2 rigid.

Some ARBs are going to be too stiff for use on all but very smooth roads.

Stiffness is a function of the physical dimensions of the ARB (or spring), the material has no affect on stiffness. All steels remotely likely to be used in ARBs (or springs) will have the same modulus of elasticity, and thus be just as stiff as each other regardless of their molecular structure or state of temper. The difference between differing steels will be in the 'yield' strength, i.e. how far it can deflect, or how many times it can deflect, before it permanently deforms.


i would imagine a well designed sway bar would have some degree of flexibility.

Yes, it must deflect to some significant degree or the suspension to which it's fitted will be 100% rigid in roll and in single wheel bump (though not in double wheel bump), which will create very unforgiving handling characteristics due to instantaneous weight transfers through the rigid ARB.


that being said i havent heard of many cases of people turning the car around with a rear sway bar.

Excessively high rear roll stiffness will create an oversteering problem. This is why some more sophisticated rear (and front) ARBs are adjustable, i.e. to adjust the handling balance. Most of us will have seen race cars that just want to swap ends.


also i think that a front sway bar only really suits people like arronng who track their cars and turn at high speeds where bodyroll would be a big factor. Someone like me might actually have more difficulty controlling my car.

Running very high rear roll stiffness (to reduce understeer, increase handling response, and prevent excessive camber changes associated with roll) may require an increase in front roll stiffness to prevent excessive oversteer, so a stiffer front ARB might be needed to balance it out.

It might be possible to do more or less the same thing with higher front spring rates, but this may well create other problems because the springs might become too stiff in bump to maintain good contact with the road or track over irregularities in the surface.

Just 'IMO'.

[Euro08Jaz]

i agree that a manufacturers main concern is to keep a higher under steering coefficient rather an oversteer but i feel with a better combination of sway bars lateral weight transfer can be greatly improved by causing the bar to flex maybe
not solely by the materials used and there yield but also by the physical design and shape of the bar for example bends. that being said im sure that existing sway bars take this into account.

i also agree that sway bars have a tuning aspect over a tyre suspension setup.

so you agree that a front sway bar is necessary regardless of being a front engine mounted front wheel drive, as the main purpose of of a sway bar is to reduce bodyroll?

[JohnL]

i agree that a manufacturers main concern is to keep a higher under steering coefficient rather an oversteer but i feel with a better combination of sway bars lateral weight transfer can be greatly improved by causing the bar to flex maybe
not solely by the materials used and there yield but also by the physical design and shape of the bar for example bends. that being said im sure that existing sway bars take this into account.

The main factors affecting ARB stiffness (other than bar diameter) are; the length of the lateral centre section of the bar (shorter = stiffer), and the length of the longitudinal sections of the bar (the 'arms', with longer = softer). The other bends etc are there to provide clearances to other components, and while they probably affect stiffness to some degree, my understanding is that it's fairly minimal.

ARBs affect under/over steer by changing the % of total weight transfer that occurs at each end of the chassis. They don't affect the total amount of weight transfer (i.e. the sum of front + rear transfer), unless changing an ARB resuts in a higher level of lateral acceleration. They will change the speed with which weight transfers, and thus changing an ARB will affect transient handling characteristics as well as steady state handling characteristics.


so you agree that a front sway bar is necessary regardless of being a front engine mounted front wheel drive, as the main purpose of of a sway bar is to reduce bodyroll?

Not really, but each piece of string is a different length. I've removed my front ARB completely and for my purpose this has resulted in a significant handling improvement, but if I tracked the car it might not be so good...

Also, keep in mind that if the front roll stiffness is too high then there will be issues with excessive unloading of the inside front tyre, resulting in problems getting power to the ground exitting corners.

[rambohung]

Sorry to ask a noob question, will installing either bar void the manufacturer's warranty?

[LXRY]

Sorry to ask a noob question, will installing either bar void the manufacturer's warranty?

*edited....selfish of me sorry

If it was the cause of the damage then yes sorry.........

[tony1234]

Sorry to ask a noob question, will installing either bar void the manufacturer's warranty?
Technically yes but no Honda service dept.worries about it if you have any warranty issues.

[EUR003act]

Sorry to ask a noob question, will installing either bar void the manufacturer's warranty?

if you snapped your end links or tore your subframe... then no, that wouldnt be covered by warranty... but generally speaking, no it wont void your warranty...

[Crapdaz]

yes it voids warranty if it does affect and damages any part of the suspension assembly that is linking to that part.

e.g snappage of endlinks from thicker bar and torn subframe as master eur003act has mentioned.

[rambohung]

yes it voids warranty if it does affect and damages any part of the suspension assembly that is linking to that part.

e.g snappage of endlinks from thicker bar and torn subframe as master eur003act has mentioned.

Thanks for the answer guys, that's exactly what I would thought if related part are broken.

[LXRY]

edited my post guys was wrong....fliying on my high horse......

[Ragerunner]

does installing a sway bar have any effects on insurance? and while we're at it, do springs/coilcovers affect insurance? i.e. you don't mention that you added a sway bar to the insurance company

[LXRY]

Truth.....you have to disclose everything to insurance otherwise if they find out they can use this against you to try to get out of the claim.....read the fine print next time you sign. I could be wrong correct me anyone if I am

[Crapdaz]

does installing a sway bar have any effects on insurance? and while we're at it, do springs/coilcovers affect insurance? i.e. you don't mention that you added a sway bar to the insurance company
EVERYTHING CAN AFFECT INSURANCE.
just depending on if you have it insured or not.

and they can raught you from your payout if they assessed your car being not standard and not insured with modifications then you are stuffed in an accident that wasn't your fault, also they will claim if you have any illegal mods too which you'll get stuffed in that case.

Hope it's easy to understand, as im fokkien buggered!!

[LXRY]

EVERYTHING CAN AFFECT INSURANCE.
just depending on if you have it insured or not.

and they can raught you from your payout if they assessed your car being not standard and not insured with modifications then you are stuffed in an accident that wasn't your fault, also they will claim if you have any illegal mods too which you'll get stuffed in that case.

Hope it's easy to understand, as im fokkien buggered!!

Well said and very true.......

*told you, you a night owl ;)

[EUR003act]

technically you only wont be insured for the parts that you didnt tell them about... ie: if you have tein suspension, you crash and claim on insurance, theyll only replace with stock... HOWEVER, where most insurance companies will try get out of it is if its not engineered, then legally the car isnt road worthy, as it MAY not meet ADRs... so it shouldnt have been on the road... and therefore, will not be covered...

[LXRY]

technically you only wont be insured for the parts that you didnt tell them about... ie: if you have tein suspension, you crash and claim on insurance, theyll only replace with stock... HOWEVER, where most insurance companies will try get out of it is if its not engineered, then legally the car isnt road worthy, as it MAY not meet ADRs... so it shouldnt have been on the road... and therefore, will not be covered...

Very true also......always said two things:

Don't mess with the tax man and insurance companies....;)
SHIFTY AS

[Crapdaz]

if i find the right price, i will end up getting the neuspeed front swaybar and i'll let you guys know.

[LXRY]

if i find the right price, i will end up getting the neuspeed front swaybar and i'll let you guys know.

more info please do tell......nuespeed :confused:

[aaronng]

technically you only wont be insured for the parts that you didnt tell them about... ie: if you have tein suspension, you crash and claim on insurance, theyll only replace with stock... HOWEVER, where most insurance companies will try get out of it is if its not engineered, then legally the car isnt road worthy, as it MAY not meet ADRs... so it shouldnt have been on the road... and therefore, will not be covered...

Actually, they can void the insurance on your ENTIRE car. It's written in at least 1 insurance company's policy.

[Crapdaz]

more info please do tell......nuespeed :confused:

NEUSPEED
FRONT SWAYBAR - 27mm

approx $217USD + shipping

and i will tell you once i've tried it, want to know if it's worth replacing, want to see if it makes a big difference.
not sure when i'll get it yet though waiting on suppliers to tell me the price.

[LXRY]

NEUSPEED
FRONT SWAYBAR - 27mm

approx $217USD + shipping

and i will tell you once i've tried it, want to know if it's worth replacing, want to see if it makes a big difference.
not sure when i'll get it yet though waiting on suppliers to tell me the price.

Crapdaz-euro section guinea pig, throw some money around bro....

[Crapdaz]

i am not the guinea pig, Eur003act is.

i am just a meer sucker.

[LXRY]

i am not the guinea pig, Eur003act is.

i am just a meer sucker.

when you think it'll arrive/install ?

What difference you think their will be ? apart from lighter pocket lol...;)

[aaronng]

i am not the guinea pig, Eur003act is.

i am just a meer sucker.
So when are you coming to Wakie? :p

[Suntzu]

I would like to go to wakkie actually. I raced there once before its fun and not far from my house.

With my Whiteline RSB and Tein SS the car can and will oversteer if you are stupid with it. I reckon a 27mm RSB is WAY overkill and will really upset the handling balance. My 2 cents.

[aaronng]

I reckon a 27mm RSB is WAY overkill and will really upset the handling balance. My 2 cents.
The 27mm is for the front swaybar.

[LXRY]

The 27mm is for the front swaybar.

Is it necessary though even for track ?

[Crapdaz]

Is it necessary though even for track ?
as said by master shiiiiii fu (aaronng) it increase steering response so yes it would help.

aaron - wakkie? when is the next event on then?

haven't seen any yet, and hopefully maybe if there is one during mid year holidays i'll come.

might be going with a mate sometime soon for 1/4 mile run.

Even though i drive like crap it'd be fun.

[aaronng]

Is it necessary though even for track ?

When I was on track, yes, I found myself wanting a thicker front sway bar. Problems I encountered were:
- Extreme front roll. When I watched a video taken of my car from the spectator's viewpoint, the front bodyroll was very bad, while the rear stayed flat. This is probably what gives the rear sway bar upgrade the great reduction in understeer.
- Oversteer when not on throttle. In any corner at Wakie BELOW max corner speed, I had to be on partial throttle or full throttle, otherwise the rear would step out. This meant my combination of stock hollow 25 mm front sway and solid 18mm rear sway was not optimal for that track.
- Even with front toe out, I find the steering response insufficient for my purposes on track. But the stock car is adequate for normal driving.

[aaronng]

as said by master shiiiiii fu (aaronng) it increase steering response so yes it would help.

aaron - wakkie? when is the next event on then?

haven't seen any yet, and hopefully maybe if there is one during mid year holidays i'll come.

might be going with a mate sometime soon for 1/4 mile run.

Even though i drive like crap it'd be fun.
Not sure when is the next wakie. If it is an Ozhonda wakie like the great one that we just had in August, that will be next year. But if it is a booked out track day by someone like tampered motorsports, it could be in a few month's time.

[Crapdaz]

bummer, ah wells i guess i can wait.

just found a nail stabbed in my rear left when rotating my tyres.

[aaronng]

bummer, ah wells i guess i can wait.

just found a nail stabbed in my rear left when rotating my tyres.

Get the tyre shop to plug it from the inside. $30-40.

[Crapdaz]

Get the tyre shop to plug it from the inside. $30-40.
i got tyre warranty so hopefully free for it.

time to buy the front swaybar aaron you know you want it. =P

[JohnL]

Problems I encountered were:
- Extreme front roll. When I watched a video taken of my car from the spectator's viewpoint, the front bodyroll was very bad, while the rear stayed flat. This is probably what gives the rear sway bar upgrade the great reduction in understeer.

aarong,
What you say implies that the body is ridiculously flexible, which of course it isn't. The car can't have body roll at the front yet stay 'flat' at the rear (though it may have substantial roll in say the first half of the corner and then not on exit). If roll stiffness is increased at either the front or the back, then the reduction in body roll will be seen in the chassis as a whole (because the body is at least reasonably rigid). What you're getting is I think something else, or rather a combination of roll and something else, i.e. 'pitch'.

My racing background is in karting, and in karts I find my fastest times are when using a lot of trail braking into the corners, i.e. braking all the way to the corner apex (or nearly), with the back end sliding to some degree. The kart is more or less 'backed in' to the corner in a mild oversteering attitude (controlled with the brake, of which there is only one attached to the solid rear axle), and because the kart is simultaneously both braking and cornering it's generating both a longitudinal and a lateral acceleration.

This causes weight to transfer from the inside to the outside and from the rear to the front, the combined affects of which are to transfer more weight to the OF than to the OR, and unload the IR (with karts you very much want to unload the IR due to the lack of a differential that would otherwise cause substantial understeer if the IR remained loaded).

In your car I suspect you're getting a somewhat similar affect making it look like there is a lot of 'front roll' in the early corner, but what you might actually have is a combination of roll and pitch. This may be because you might be trail braking, and / or you have substantial understeer. Understeer creates a lot of rolling resistance that in effect acts like you are braking to some degree, causing a forward pitch and forward weight transfer.

So, you may have both a forward and lateral weight transfer causing the chassis to 'dive' on the OF as the IR lifts, i.e. the OF suspension compresses more than the OR suspension because the OF is recieving weight transfer from both the IF and the rear (probably from both the OR and IR to some degre, though IR transfer will also be going to the OR). And, the IR corner would be rising more than the IF corner (of the chassis). Combined, these effects could make it look as if the front had more roll angle than the rear, though this won't actually be the case.

Fitting a stiffer front ARB will tend to lessen the lateral component of the 'roll / pitch' motion (at both front and rear), but I expect will also be increasing weight transfer from the IF to the OF, possibly increasing understeer (though you may be getting a counter benefit due to the roll related OF camber change not being so great...).

I could be wrong, but I don't think that the 'front roll' motion is in itself likely to be a problem unless it's so great that the OF is moving into positive camber because of the roll component of the roll / pitch motion. Keep in mind that roll isn't a cause of weight transfer, it's a product of it. If you increase front ARB stiffness (or front spring stiffness) to reduce roll motion then you'll increase front weight transfer while simultaneously decreasing rear weight transfer, and thus you'll most probably increase understeer.

Something I've noticed with my Accord since deleting the front ARB altogether; Using my habitual karting technique of trail braking into corners I was getting a lot of what felt like 'front roll' as well as significant understeer in the first part of the corner. After a while I noticed that this 'front roll' feeling had more or less disappeared along with most of the understeer, which did seem rather strange once I'd noticed it, so I started analysing how I was now driving the car into corners compared to how I used to.

It seems that I've unconsiously changed my driving style in that I'm now no longer trail braking, but rather I'm braking up to the turn in point and then getting off the brake completely at the moment I turn in. Turn in is now sharper, and the feeling of 'front roll' is almost gone (I can now feel the rear roll stiffness resisting roll more than I did previously).

I now find the car drives a tighter line in the early corner (less understeer due to not braking simultaneous with steering) and I can also start accelerating at exit significantly sooner without inducing exit understeer.

[aaronng]

i got tyre warranty so hopefully free for it.

time to buy the front swaybar aaron you know you want it. =P

The installation cost is too high. If you plan to install it, do it during your clutch and flywheel install.

[Euro08Jaz]

for learning purposes i intend to track my car with a rear sway bar than a front sway bar. problem is ill end up with a thiner rear sway if i go for a set.