Replacement shock discussion: Are my shocks blown? *PICS* [Archive]

JohnL

15-09-2008, 08:02 AM

awww I can't stand Koni's. if you haven't tried many coilovers or shocks, they seem great. But man are they bad. So crashy... similar to the buddyclubs.

You're comparing apples to oranges, i.e. an uprated damper on it's own against an uprated damper and spring.

If you were comparing the Koni dampers to the dampers incorporated into a typical aftermarket damper / spring combination (i.e. what's commonly thought of in aftermarket land as 'coilovers', even though the stock set up is also coilover), then the Koni is superior.

If it's a DC2R, don't downgrade your suspension. The stock system is beautiful.

The stock damper may well be good, but better than Koni is a big claim...

I'd recommend KYB shocks over Koni anyday of the week, or a good coilover rather.

That's a long skinny branch you're sitting on. There's a huge body of expert opinion that will disagree with you, strongly. In readily avaiable dampers, in order, there's Bilstein, then Koni, then a fairly big gap to the best of the rest.

Konis paired with appropriate springs sourced seperately will almost certainly be superior to any 'coilovers', and definitely better than KYBs fitted to seperately sourced springs.

VTECMACHINE

15-09-2008, 09:36 AM

LOL alright mate.

So your saying Koni is better than Ohlins and things like that?

Aren't Koni's an oil shock? I'm sorry but there is no way an oil shock as a performance Damper (especially for circuit racing - which you are claiming Koni to be, as you say they are better and Ohlins and stuff) is better than a Gas shock.

Also just wondering... what other coilovers/shocks/springs have you used and for what purpose. Have you driven a DC2R before? do you really know what the suspension is like? it's beautiful, and I have seen way to many people stuff it up by using Koni's.

Just my 2c, and i'm sticking with Koni's are s**t!

SiReal

15-09-2008, 09:38 AM

I have koni/H&R/Neuspeed and compared to my Tein SS I also had, Konis were far superior.

But you have to look at it from a consumer point of view - I only want to spend $1000 on shocks, and I want something that is decent. So Koni gets it for me.

I'm not a track warrior so my criterior aren't that great :)

Thanks for your input anyway. I really don't understand why you hate koni so much hehe its just a brand of shock. its no big deal yo

Anyway, thanks all for your input. I'll keep the car stock for as long as I can and we'll see how I go further down the track.

VTECMACHINE

15-09-2008, 09:45 AM

On my DC2R, i've had stock sussy, and then Koni and Eibachs, and then Buddy Club racing spec dampers, and now got Zeal Function X.

The BC and Zeals Spring rates are the same, yet due to the damper/shock design, it chopped 2.1 seconds of my lap times at Wakefield.

A shock is not just a shock. And it is a big deal IMHO.

IMO Oil shocks are FAR superior to gas shocks.

If they are for the street or something, then yeah Koni's are fine... but I much prefer the stock 'coilovers'.

Sydsyd

15-09-2008, 12:44 PM

VTECMACHINE, just in case u don't realise, the main problem is his front shocks are leaking oil, which means 2 things:

1. he has to rebuilt the stock shocks
2. he needs to get aftermarket shocks

from what i know, the difference in price between number 1 and 2 are not that much, so that's why he's thinking of getting new aftermarket shocks...and read also on his last post, he's using it mainly for street driving, he's not looking to have a stiff ride that those racing coilovers (that u're using) offer...

on the issue of stock shocks are better than aftermarket shocks, i might have to disagree with u mate...why would ppl buy aftermarket shocks and springs combo to improve their handling performance if that proved to be sh*t? true, they don't offer the same performance as aftermarket coilovers, but i'm sure most ppl including suspension mechanics would agree that most aftermarket shock and springs combo are better compared to stock setup (mind u, we're not talking about matching king springs with aftermarket shocks)...

SiReal

15-09-2008, 12:54 PM

I think we have to segregate the market here.

vtecmachine you have good personal advice but I think your price range and target market does not cater to my market segment. I.e. you seem like a track person so obviously you'll be willing to spend more yeah

Others are daily drivers who do occasional squirts around the mountain or what not, so anything fairly basic off the shelf will in most cases be suitable - in use and in budget.

Either way, I belive my questions have been answered, they do look blown.. *bah* so I'll start looking for some low K OEM stuff or koni. i belive a brand new koni > 120,000kms blown OEM :) :)

twing

15-09-2008, 12:59 PM

on the issue of stock shocks are better than aftermarket shocks, i might have to disagree with u mate...why would ppl buy aftermarket shocks and springs combo to improve their handling performance if that proved to be sh*t?

I should add reputable aftermarket shocks into that statement. I'm sure OEM type R shocks are still no match for el-chepo shocks :).
Jeff, get a new shocks man. don't get 2nd cause you won't know how many Ks exactly it has been used. My first choice would be koni yellow. Thinking of koni red too for more budget. I haven't experienced it though.

VTECMACHINE

15-09-2008, 01:40 PM

on the issue of stock shocks are better than aftermarket shocks, i might have to disagree with u mate...why would ppl buy aftermarket shocks and springs combo to improve their handling performance if that proved to be sh*t? true, they don't offer the same performance as aftermarket coilovers, but i'm sure most ppl including suspension mechanics would agree that most aftermarket shock and springs combo are better compared to stock setup (mind u, we're not talking about matching king springs with aftermarket shocks)...

I get what you guys are talking about. Sure put what you like on a VTi-R, or GSi, or civic or what ever. But on a Type R DC2, the suspension plays such a huge role in making the car what it is. Putting Koni's on kills the ride. I have driven many DC2R with Koni's and the Stock DC2R suspension will eat it for breakfast lunch and tea. Ofcourse it's all about setup and what springs you use too. But surely you wouldn't think Honda spent the millions of dollar in R&D for no reason, when some guy could go out buy some adjustable shocks throw them in, and put some springs over the shocks, and all will be better. It doesn't work like this.

And no I wasn't telling you to go buy exxy coilovers - I wasn't telling you do anything, was just stating that Stock DC2R suspension is more refined in terms of setup for the car, than a cheap oil shock.

But meh, if you like.. good stuff man! Enjoy them...

JohnL

15-09-2008, 03:26 PM

LOL alright mate.

So your saying Koni is better than Ohlins and things like that?

That's not what I'm saying. Sure you can get pricey racing oriented dampers such as Ohlins or say Penske that will be superior to Koni, but that's another story. Note that I said "readily available dampers", which doesn't really include brands such as Ohlins (at least I've never run across them for sale anywhere remotely convenient, even if you could buy some ready to just bolt on to a Civic or Accord etc, which I suspect is unlikely).

I'm not sure how Bilsteins stack up against Ohlins, Penske etc, but my understanding is that Penske is as good as it gets, and that Penske uses Bilstein valves inside their products (albeit modified I think)...

Aren't Koni's an oil shock? I'm sorry but there is no way an oil shock as a performance Damper (especially for circuit racing - which you are claiming Koni to be, as you say they are better and Ohlins and stuff) is better than a Gas shock.

And then you say "IMO Oil shocks are FAR superior to gas shocks"...???

My understanding is that Konis are low pressure gas dampers, which in theory shouldn't be as good as a high pressure gas damper, which Ohlins, Penske etc may well be(?). However, I think you need to go at least to a Bilstein to get high pressure gas. Pressurised gas is better than non pressurised because the pressure helps resist cavitation and foaming inside the damper.

Probably(?) the best thing about high pressure gas dampers is that you can mount them upside down, thus eliminating the mass of the damper body from total unsprung weight.

You say; "A shock is not just a shock. And it is a big deal IMHO", and I fully agree with you here. The dampers are the foundation of any good suspension set up.

Also just wondering... what other coilovers/shocks/springs have you used and for what purpose. Have you driven a DC2R before? do you really know what the suspension is like? it's beautiful, and I have seen way to many people stuff it up by using Koni's.

Used all sorts over the years, from crap to Konis, in a number of sedans and in a Lotus style 'clubman' sports car ('Nota', a rather esoteric marque). Only for road work though, my racing has all been in karting.

I'm not disputing that the stock DC2R dampers aren't excellent, I've never driven on them, but suggesting that Konis are rubbish is 'way out there'. I would suggest that people who "stuff up" their handling by fitting Konis have them adjusted way wrong...

Just my 2c, and i'm sticking with Koni's are s**t!

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Worth a read...

e240

15-09-2008, 03:34 PM

There are Ohlins and there are Ohlins. I don't believe that the automotive Ohlins are in the same league as the Motorcycle Ohlins, from what I know, different factory.

If you paid the same price as you did for Ohlins to Koni, they'd be able to make you a set thats the same as the Ohlins, hell, they'd probably tune to your valving requirements too.

Oil or Gas suspensions are commonly misunderstood item. All gas shocks have oil (although not all oil have gas) but Koni Yellows (Popular for street performance) are oil/gas shocks. Hell, even the stock ITR shocks are oil/gas. Whats different, potentially is the valving rate in the shock.

I use Koni's coupled with ITR springs for street use (Well, Until I started FIGHTEX anyway, which I now use for street as well because they're actually quite a comfortable ride for what they are - FIGHTEX N1).

I think the issue with Koni's are that alot of people don't know how to set them up or match them. All to often, I see people just turn up the Koni's to the stiffest or near stiffest. Of course its going to be harsh.

LOL alright mate.

So your saying Koni is better than Ohlins and things like that?

Aren't Koni's an oil shock? I'm sorry but there is no way an oil shock as a performance Damper (especially for circuit racing - which you are claiming Koni to be, as you say they are better and Ohlins and stuff) is better than a Gas shock.

Also just wondering... what other coilovers/shocks/springs have you used and for what purpose. Have you driven a DC2R before? do you really know what the suspension is like? it's beautiful, and I have seen way to many people stuff it up by using Koni's.

Just my 2c, and i'm sticking with Koni's are s**t!

e240

15-09-2008, 03:35 PM

I should add reputable aftermarket shocks into that statement. I'm sure OEM type R shocks are still no match for el-chepo shocks :).
Jeff, get a new shocks man. don't get 2nd cause you won't know how many Ks exactly it has been used. My first choice would be koni yellow. Thinking of koni red too for more budget. I haven't experienced it though.

Yellow is better than Red in the Koni world and more expensive.

SHOGUNOVDDRK

15-09-2008, 03:38 PM

Yellow is better than Red in the Koni world and more expensive.

x2

I'd sell my soul to the Devil for Koni Yellows..

But didn't it go Blue>Yellow>Red?

JohnL

15-09-2008, 03:46 PM

Putting Koni's on kills the ride.

Very comfy on a soft setting...

I have driven many DC2R with Koni's and the Stock DC2R suspension will eat it for breakfast lunch and tea. Ofcourse it's all about setup and what springs you use too.

There you go, it's about how well the suspension is set up. Adjustables do open up the real possibility of getting the damper settings way wrong, especially if using aftermarket springs as well. Get it wrong and the stock set up is very likely to be better.

But surely you wouldn't think Honda spent the millions of dollar in R&D for no reason, when some guy could go out buy some adjustable shocks throw them in, and put some springs over the shocks, and all will be better. It doesn't work like this.

Consider that the dampers are one of the many items that will be compromised under pressure from the almighty bean counters at head office, and the suspension engineers will have to come to compromises they may not prefer to make (e.g. "yes you can use those tyres but only if you cut money out somewhere else").

And, even with 'sports' oriented models the intended market demographic won't be particularly 'hard core', compromises for ride comfort over ultimate performance will be in the package, in most cases.

Aftermarket manufacturers like Koni, Bilstein et al are not quite so constrained, they can build really good dampers and sell them for a higher price to the more hard core enthusiasts (and to car manufacturers who place a premium on handling such as Aston Martin, BMW, Ferrari etc etc), and they do know what they're doing...

e240

15-09-2008, 03:47 PM

Just my 2c, and i'm sticking with Koni's are s**t!

Oh, by the way, guess who provides suspensions for Lewis Hamilton's F1 Car... :wave:

SiReal

15-09-2008, 03:48 PM

I dont think Blue exist hehe

Thanks everyone for your input. Highly appreciate it.

JohnL

15-09-2008, 03:55 PM

If you paid the same price as you did for Ohlins to Koni, they'd be able to make you a set thats the same as the Ohlins, hell, they'd probably tune to your valving requirements too.

Pay extra and Koni will valve to your spec, and fit adjustable bump valves too if you really want it. The wide range of actual stiffness adjustment is big plus on the Koni side of the sheet, most other adjustable dampers actually have very little range of stiffness from soft to stiff, despite often having a ridiculous number of settings (i.e. 'clicks', some of which make no change at all...). Of course, more adjustment range means more opportunity to get the settings wrong...

On the other hand, only a very limited number of Bilstein dampers use adjustable valves. Bilstein considering that a good adjustable valve will never be quite as good or reliable as a good non adjustable valve, all else being equal. Bilsteins are designed for relatively easy valve changes (if you have the gear to do it).

e240

15-09-2008, 03:56 PM

x2

I'd sell my soul to the Devil for Koni Yellows..

But didn't it go Blue>Yellow>Red?

By expensive, I mean compared to red, but compared to alot of shocks out there, they're actually bang on for value and quality.

Are there blue?

SHOGUNOVDDRK

15-09-2008, 03:59 PM

By expensive, I mean compared to red, but compared to alot of shocks out there, they're actually bang on for value and quality.

Are there blue?

Well in general the yellows are better then the reds (or atleast for the 3G's)

I was told there is a Koni Blue and that they are competition spec

SiReal

15-09-2008, 04:01 PM

gee now i'm more confused than ever to find a replacement shock...

bilstein (non adjust) or koni (adjust)... I'm afraid the bilsteins wont have the same firm valving as the OEMs, hence ruining the ride.

e240

15-09-2008, 04:02 PM

My understanding is that Konis are low pressure gas dampers, which in theory shouldn't be as good as a high pressure gas damper, which Ohlins, Penske etc may well be(?). ...

All Integra, Civic shock replacement from Koni's are high pressure monotube designs.

Hell, I should sell Konis.

Original Poster - Just go get some Fightex DAs..A good suspension unit goes a long way whether you track or not. :angel:

e240

15-09-2008, 04:04 PM

Well in general the yellows are better then the reds (or atleast for the 3G's)

I was told there is a Koni Blue and that they are competition spec

3g! For Koni Yellows? !!! I picked mine up for under $600, all four corners.

JohnL

15-09-2008, 04:06 PM

I dont think Blue exist

Never heard of Koni 'Blues'. Commonly used Konis are;
Sports (aka 'yellow')
Special (aka 'red')
Classic (aka 'black')

Then there are purpose made racing dampers (blues?).

To my understanding they (Sports, Special, Classic) are all internally the same, except that Sports have stiffer valving than the Specials, and while Specials are adjustable in rebound like the Sports are, only the Sports have the external adjusters (though not all Sports have external adjusters, like the rear ones for my Accord, grrrr).

I'm not sure if the Classics are adjustable (my guess is that they probably would be), and they are intended for older model cars (e.g. Austin Healeys and the like).

SHOGUNOVDDRK

15-09-2008, 04:06 PM

3g! For Koni Yellows? !!! I picked mine up for under $600, all four corners.

hahahahaa no i was referring to the 3G civic's :p

Though a mint in original box of Koni reds would go for atleast 1k+

:edit: My source may have infact been referring to Blacks

Ill try find the source and pics later :p

[ricer]

15-09-2008, 04:08 PM

3g! For Koni Yellows? !!! I picked mine up for under $600, all four corners.

i think he mean 3rd gen civic?

i like koni yellows... got them for about 630 a few months back brand new from the us:thumbsup:

JohnL

15-09-2008, 04:14 PM

All Integra, Civic shock replacement from Koni's are high pressure monotube designs.

All the better. Yellows for Accords are twin tube low pressure. Twin tube isn't necessarily worse than monotube, but the characteristics do differ (I'd have to look up the specific differences). I suspect high pressure can only be made in monotube (?).

e240

15-09-2008, 04:19 PM

hahahahaa no i was referring to the 3G civic's :p:p

;1894441']i think he mean 3rd gen civic?
:

:o heh heh heh

SiReal

15-09-2008, 04:25 PM

Thanks for all your insights EVERYBODY! This is fantastic - to have a healthy debate on the pros and cons, to be able to list sources of info. We should do this more often!

VTECMACHINE

15-09-2008, 05:18 PM

Like I concluded... if you like them, awesome!
I still find them crap, haha. But yeah they are alright for the street. Good from A-B, and adjustable also. But for mountain roads and trackwork... pathetic. And yes as Leo stated, they are really hard to match springs up to.

JohnL

15-09-2008, 05:57 PM

Vtec (do you mind if I call you vtec?...),
You'd have to be the only person I've come across with actual experience of Konis that thought they were "pathetic", or even close to that. The exact opposite is the usual case, including that many users seem to find they'll happily work with a wide range of spring rates, from stock to pretty damn stiff...

I wonder what was wrong with the ones you've tried? Were they set up badly, or worn out, of fitted to ridiculously stiff springs? Dampers incorporated into some 'coilovers' may be significantly stiffer than Konis, and thus provide a flatter ride and sharper steering response, but this doesn't necessarily mean they'll handle better, especially over less than perfectly smooth surfaces.

Another tick in the Koni box is that they have a very digressive force curve, meaning that as the shaft input speed increases the damper doesn't become linearly more resistant, but the force curve flattens out. This makes the Konis stiff at low shaft input speeds, such as occur during roll events (good for handling in general), yet quite supple over bumpy surfaces (good for handling and ride quality on rougher roads).

One thing I waill say against the Konis, is that on stock springs I find the bump rate is just a bit too soft (at least with my Accord). Fitting stiffer springs would mean that the spring carries more of the bump loading, and thus the Koni bump rate would most probably be more suited to somewhat stiffer springs than stock (not that they work badly with the stock springs, they work very well, just not perfectly).

It's probably a common misconception that stiffer springs require the damper to be stiffer in general, whereas my understanding is that in reality a stiffer spring generally needs a stiffer rebound rate, but not necessarily a stiffer bump rate.

JohnL

15-09-2008, 06:04 PM

For Koni Yellows? !!! I picked mine up for under $600, all four corners.

May I ask where that was from, and when? I have a friend chasing prices on some for his EG Civic, and he hasn't found any below about $1000.

SHOGUNOVDDRK

15-09-2008, 06:09 PM

:o heh heh heh

kekeke its ok :p

JohnL- Honestly it depends on for Hatch or Sedan (if they're not the same) and where (country) you are trying to source them from and how long you want to wait, though i am too interested from where

An41

15-09-2008, 06:30 PM

trader race nation sell em
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55668
other than that US

vinnY

15-09-2008, 08:01 PM

here (http://www.PerformanceCloseout.com/cart.php?target=category&category_id=134) you go john :)

[ricer]

15-09-2008, 08:05 PM

i got mine here
their reply to emails and questions are SUPER QUICK
http://www.ipgparts.com/category_Shocks.htm

SiReal

15-09-2008, 08:29 PM

nice one guys. thats great. thanks for that!

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 09:25 AM

LOL sure you can call me Vtec. haha.

Yeah they aren't baddddd, for the street they are good. But comparing them to a proper coilover system they aren't that great, and thats IMHO.

I just didn't have a good experience with my Koni's, bought them new, and they started leaking after 3 months. Hard to match spring too, and yeah just don't like them. Sorry. Oh and, 4 of my mate have them, and they are all screwed after about a year and a bit (15,000 km's).

The stock system is great... love them.

vuongkong

16-09-2008, 10:00 AM

so Vtec! you rate stock dc2r shocks over koni Yellows ? were planning to get some yellows or dc2r shocks dunnoe which one to settle for. is there a way to lower your car without killing the shocks in the long run? cheers guys.

SiReal

16-09-2008, 10:13 AM

hey vtec, its funny hehe, i've had yellows in my accord for around 30 to 40,000 kms and they still feel as strong as day one.

however, with you having said that - i'm going overseas very soon and i'll try source some tein flex for dc2r while i'm there. If not, i'll setting on Koni.

Its always hard tryuing to find low K DC2R shocks unless you buy them first hand off a close mate. i was considering a set, but then the 'what ifs' came in. i.e what if Kms stated werent legit, what if these are actually stock EG shocks, whatif they were matched with lowering springs previously?

so rather than spend $100 to $200 on used shocks, why not spend that little more to buy brand new shocks .. or even second hand coils.

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 11:00 AM

Don't listen to me guys... I have my own tuning ethics, LOL. I've tried a fair few products, while wasting thousands of dollar here and there. But i've actually found what is best for me, and i'll stick to it and promote the crap out of it.

I loved the stock feel and setup of the DC2R - so yes, I personally prefer the stock setup compared to Koni... well actually any shock and spring combo. Unless you 100% know what you are doing, and know how to match springs etc up to a shock, for your own driving style.
Considering none of us are race car drivers, or awesome engineers that can design a suspension system - it proved to be a costly exercise to trial different springs. I tried 4 different springs on my Koni's and they just never felt right.

Actually saying that I have driven a fair few heavier cars on Koni's, and they feel better. Perhaps they aren't the right shock for lighter Honda's... I dunno?

All I know is, if I had to pick coilovers for a DC2R, not any other car, as the car in question here is a DC2R, and that's what I have been commenting on (considering how twitchy they are, and how easily they respond to slight sussy modification) I would keep away from Koni's, or shock and spring combo's. I'd do it right, first time and buy a good set of coilovers that have been tested on the Track and Touge by real drivers and engineers from well known Japanese companies, ie: Tein Flex, Zeals, Cusco Zero II's, Fightex etc...
Also just wanted to bring up... it's alot easier to tune, say a Accord or Civic suspension wise, then it is to tune a Type R. Not saying Type R's are the shit, cos they are not... but there is alot more room for improvment in a accord or civic or prelude or what ever, than there is in a Integra or Civic Type R - and thus make suspension tuning for these vechiles a whole lot easier. You can even just slap some stiffer springs in, and the suspension is a mileeee better. These cars are built from the factory as commuters which have confort and Luxury. The R is meant for the track and winding roads (Touge).

Bigpauly2788

16-09-2008, 01:56 PM

When you install coilovers do they replace the standard shocks in the car?

twing

16-09-2008, 02:02 PM

coilover is spring + shock package.
So they will replace your original shocks, and your spring :)

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 02:19 PM

http://www.modacar.com/Merchant2/struts_honda_files/bilstein_sturts.jpg Shock + http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50243337/Car_Suspension_Springs.jpg Spring = http://www.performanceautocanada.com/Parts/Coilovers/coilover.jpg Coilover

vuongkong

16-09-2008, 02:49 PM

nicely said vtec. to us the type r is not modified. but to honda the type r is highly modified. lol. is there a way to tell the difference from type r shocks to eg or normal dc2 ones?

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 02:58 PM

nicely said vtec. to us the type r is not modified. but to honda the type r is highly modified. lol. is there a way to tell the difference from type r shocks to eg or normal dc2 ones?

Yes the Type R is definately "modified", from Honda (Even though it is still a stock car). It's amazing when you analyse the parts in it, internals are light, low friction materials, high comp pistons, great strong crank etc etc... I'm not saying the R is a race car... because I highly disagree with that theory, even though so many people think that you are meant to thrash them non-stop and they will last. It's still a stock car that is meant for the street, but can handle the occasional track day or two. It's underpowered, but the suspension makes up for that, and this is why I say don't ruin it.

No idea how to tell if it's an EG shock or DC2R shock. This is probably wayyyy wrong, but the rear mounting point might be different as the rear LCA's are different between the DC2R and the EG's? Someone correct me if i'm wrong, cos I probably am.

SiReal

16-09-2008, 03:00 PM

yeah dc2r is eylet, eg is fork.

i'm just concerned about one thing tho, finding the shock that will have at least the same dampening properties if not better than the stock stuff.

what woudl you recommend vtec if looking purely at shocks with a budget in mind?

bilstein arent adjustable.. so if they're too soft, then that would suck.

konis are, but then u've had negative experience...

its a tough one! haha

e240

16-09-2008, 03:08 PM

Having P73 in the part number is an indication of ab ITR part. You can check that?

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 03:08 PM

You could look at Showa Shocks. They make alot of stock car shock absorbers (including the DC2R), also have their performance/racing range. This is something I would get, if I were to go Shocks and springs again (which I wouldn't).

http://www.showa1.com/en/

Aftermarket shocks will never last as long as stock shocks, but there is always compromise when going aftermarket. IMHO Stock stuff is engineered to find the fine line between the few compromises you face, whilst achieiving the feel and performance to what the car is marketed towards.

End of the day it's up to you. Depending how much you want to spend etc. www.perfectrun.com.au sells coilovers for a heaps good price. I got mine through them, and they were quick and great to deal with.

Also if you want to lower your car and still have a comfy ride, with good performance.. i'd definately say OEM ITR shocks, with Spoon springs.

Ohh also, i think Skunk 2 is pretty alright too, for the street and occasional spirited driving... Check JDM Yard for that stuff.

Zdster

16-09-2008, 03:15 PM

Aftermarket shocks will never last as long as stock shocks, but there is always compromise when going aftermarket.

Can you please qualify this response with some sort of evidence?

SiReal

16-09-2008, 03:17 PM

Having P73 in the part number is an indication of ab ITR part. You can check that?

Thanks Leo, I asked another member to have a look and he couldnt find any numbers on the shock body. Hence why I'm leaning more towards buying a brand new high performance shock vs risking getting stock eg shocks as per your advice.

vtec, cool, will keep those brands in mind when hunting.

e240

16-09-2008, 03:21 PM

You won't find the part number on the part itself, it'll be on the parts list.

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 03:23 PM

Can you please qualify this response with some sort of evidence?

ummm...

* My stock OEM shocks lasted 75,000km's, 2 track days and are still perfect, when I changed them. All of my family's 4 other Honda's shocks have always lasted the full 80,000-140,000km's on the car, with me giving them a bit of a work inbetween - then we sold the car. My VP (1992) Holden commy's shocks lasted 220,000km's never were replaced, and were perfect.

* Koni's died after a few months, and leaked everywhere.

* BuddyClubs, started getting noisey, and not dampening as well as they did when new after 10,000km's & 3 track days - No leaks.

* Zeals... in use now... will report any problems if I have any. However, some people on other forum have said they they could do with an overhaul after 10,000- 15,000 km's using these coilovers.

Is that what you were after?

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 03:24 PM

You won't find the part number on the part itself, it'll be on the parts list.

Leo, are the rear mounting point to the LCA's different between the 2 shocks?

Zdster

16-09-2008, 03:31 PM

ummm...

* My stock OEM shocks lasted 75,000km's, 2 track days and are still perfect, when I changed them. All of my family's 4 other Honda's shocks have always lasted the full 80,000-140,000km's on the car, with me giving them a bit of a work inbetween - then we sold the car. My VP (1992) Holden commy's shocks lasted 220,000km's never were replaced, and were perfect.

* Koni's died after a few months, and leaked everywhere.

* BuddyClubs, started getting noisey, and not dampening as well as they did when new after 10,000km's & 3 track days - No leaks.

* Zeals... in use now... will report any problems if I have any. However, some people on other forum have said they they could do with an overhaul after 10,000- 15,000 km's using these coilovers.

Is that what you were after?

No, I would like some studies. I have known of at least a couple of sets of koni shocks that have lasted over 80,000km's and are still going strong. I would think if the Koni's died after a couple of months and leaked everywhere they were installed incorrectly or they were faulty.

e240

16-09-2008, 03:36 PM

Between what 2 shocks? I use EK shocks on my EG..hahha..

In some markets, EG's and other Integra's use the same suspension layout and setup across the range. Whether the damping rates are the same, I don't know. For all you know they are. I do know that ITRs have higher spring rates though.

But if there are Type R specific shocks, I'm assuming they'd have a Type R designation in their part number (P73) as with all other type R parts I've seen.

if you cannot find a type R specific designation on the shock, then maybe they're all the same. LOL

Anyway, a little trivia, factory Honda Civic/Integras etc shocks are all coilover systems already, not spring and dampers, like maybe the toyota starlet or some renault, peugot etc

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 03:42 PM

No, I would like some studies. I have known of at least a couple of sets of koni shocks that have lasted over 80,000km's and are still going strong. I would think if the Koni's died after a couple of months and leaked everywhere they were installed incorrectly or they were faulty.

I'm not here to take or give studies. I'm just sharing my experiences and views. Sure, if you like them... get them, and stick with them.

Ofcourse most of them last a long period of time. If they didn't, I doubt they'd still be an active business. So they should, and if you had faith in them you shouldn't ask me to justify their quality.

I've only commented that a few people have experienced these bad things - but surely they can't be that bad, right?

How wrong can you go with coilover installation. If they were faulty... well that says alot about the product. I have imported a fair few jap coilovers from Japan directly for a fair few mates, and none of them have had any issues.

So yeah, i'm not trying to steer you away from getting these. If you like/want them... get them.

Can you please give me a justification and study on why you think that Koni's are so great?

CRXer

16-09-2008, 05:27 PM

Can you please give me a justification and study on why you think that Koni's are so great?

didnt anyone read the link posted by JohnL earlier in this thread?

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

might help a lot of the rubbish being dribbled in this thread.

btw had my koni yellows for about 10years now,must be well over 150k km on them,only 1 rear died in the last few weeks from me loading up a pair of 18k springs on them,i know they wont handle over 11k with stock valves , so save the lectures,i needed something to load the springs on........

vuongkong

16-09-2008, 06:56 PM

if i wanted a lower ride with a little comfort what springs would you guys recommend with the dc2r shocks? how low can you possibly go without waring out these shocks?

In saying that the stock suspension setup in hondas are coilovers, is there any difference b/t dc2r suspension and aftermarket coilovers apart from height adjustability ?

cheers guys.

bennjamin

16-09-2008, 07:44 PM

just my input....

i have had koni yellows , mated to dodgy king springs and then to eibach springs. Both times the car handed track and heavy "spirited driving" fine. Sold em around 3/4 of a year later with about 20k on them and they looked like new.

I also have had OEM ITR shocks in my EG at one stage , and altho the height looked ike a truck they were fantastic suspension. Its part of what makes a DC2 ITR THE best handling car in the world IMO.

VTECMACHINE

16-09-2008, 09:53 PM

if i wanted a lower ride with a little comfort what springs would you guys recommend with the dc2r shocks? how low can you possibly go without waring out these shocks?

I haven't tried them... but Spoon springs on stock ITR shocks are meant to be awesome. And they go quite low too (Ie: tyre sits 1/2-1cm from the guard.). Using stock rims, you won't need to roll the guards.

Also Ben, ofcourse Koni's will handle track, and spirited driving. I'm just using them as a comparison to a japanese coilovers - whereby the jap coilover will crap all over Koni. :wave:

JohnL

17-09-2008, 08:27 AM

Aftermarket shocks will never last as long as stock shocks, but there is always compromise when going aftermarket. IMHO Stock stuff is engineered to find the fine line between the few compromises you face, whilst achieiving the feel and performance to what the car is marketed towards.

Vtec,
If you make sweeping statements like that then you're going to find that a lot people will have a hard time taking you seriously on this. Stock dampers (as a gross generalisation) are fairly notorious for not lasting all that long. An example would be the rear dampers on my mother's Mazda 323 that started feeling quite soft after about a year or so.

Having said that, the stock dampers used on Hondas do seem to last well, my Accord still had the OE dampers at 200,000kms (when I bought the car), and they still worked acceptably (for a family sedan). A few months on dirt roads saw them off though. My friends EG Civic has the OE dampers at 300,000kms, and while they aren't great they aren't all that bad. (both these cars have good maintenance records showing things like "fitted 2 new tyres at X km" etc, but no record of any damper changes).

Konis are reknowned for their longevity, I've come across / heard maybe one or two reports of relatively early Koni failure, but plenty of reports of Konis going strong year after year after year. On the other hand I've heard quite a lot of reports of early failure with various well known Japanese brands (stand alone dampers as well as dampers supplied with 'coilover' combinations). I've also heard at least one report of early failure with Bilstein dampers, and Bilstein's reputation is second to none (statement of fact)...

Having said all this, there are some truly dreadful aftermarket dampers around, the worst I've ever experienced were Monroe Sensatracs. The worst thing about these dampers was that they just wouldn't die, and I did try to kill them, just to have an excuse to be rid of them...

VTECMACHINE

17-09-2008, 10:22 AM

I was talking about Japanese coilovers, and not brands like Koni, and Monroe etc.
Majority of large Japanese suspension manufactuers state that overhauls should take place 10-15,000km's, or 1-2 years of driving for the shocks to work optimally.

From what I have learnt on my previous Japanese shocks or coilovers, is that this is very true.

OEM shocks do not need to be overhauled or replaced this regularily. If you would have to, i'd assume people would not be very happy.

You or no one has to take me seriously. But i'm sure a few people trying to make their mind up about coilovers would appreciate hearing my good and bad experiences with coilovers, shocks and springs.

So are you trying to justify Koni shocks with king springs or the likes are just as good, if not better than coilover systems like Tein, Fightex, Zeals etc...?

Zdster

17-09-2008, 10:28 AM

You or no one has to take me seriously. But i'm sure a few people trying to make their mind up about coilovers would appreciate hearing my good and bad experiences with coilovers, shocks and springs.

So are you trying to justify Koni shocks with king springs or the likes are just as good, if not better than coilover systems like Tein, Fightex, Zeals etc...?

I think the problem that I specifically had was that you were presenting your information like fact. If you had said in my experience or IMO then there would have been no problem.

For example, a family member has had a set of Japanese coilovers on there car for over 70,000kms (about 5 years) and they are still going strong as ever.

VTECMACHINE

17-09-2008, 10:32 AM

Zdster

17-09-2008, 10:39 AM

Wow... if you were to look through my posts, I think I have said IMO, and IMHO like hundreds of times. And that this is what I have personally experienced.

Also, IMHFO going strong and running optimally is not the same thing.

Im sorry, but I fail to see the IMO in the below blanket statement . . .

Aftermarket shocks will never last as long as stock shocks, but there is always compromise when going aftermarket.

You presented that as FACT and if someone with know knowledge had read that then they would assume that there shocks will 100% die before stock shocks.

VTECMACHINE

17-09-2008, 10:51 AM

So you are saying claims made by the majorty of Japanese companies to overhaul coilovers at 10-15,000km's or 1-2 year to make them run optimally is incorrect?
And implying that OEM coilovers should follow this advise also?

VTECMACHINE

17-09-2008, 11:04 AM

You presented that as FACT and if someone with know knowledge had read that then they would assume that there shocks will 100% die before stock shocks.

In most cases that is true. Aftermarket shocks will begin to NOT run as optimally as they should before OEM shocks would. If you think or know otherwise, you should be telling these companies that they are full of it. I guess it would be false advertising then ey?
Well people with no knowledge reading this thread would also think that Koni is the best, and that Koni is up there with Bilstein and things like that. I'm sorry, but there is no way on earth that, that is possible.

I'm talking about comments like these:

In readily avaiable dampers, in order, there's Bilstein, then Koni, then a fairly big gap to the best of the rest.

He also followed up with Koni and Bilstein to be the only readily available damper... niiiccceeee....

Zdster

17-09-2008, 11:06 AM

Well people with no knowledge reading this thread would also think that Koni is the best, and that Koni is up there with Bilstein and things like that. I'm sorry, but there is no way on earth that, that is possible.

Im sorry, but why arnt they good or on par with the Bilstein's? Koni produce a very good shock and I would have no qualms in recommending them. They are used in lots of race applications and have been around for a long time.

VTECMACHINE

17-09-2008, 11:12 AM

Im sorry, but why arnt they good or on par with the Bilstein's? Koni produce a very good shock and I would have no qualms in recommending them. They are used in lots of race applications and have been around for a long time.

Drive with both of them and compare. You'll be quite surprised...

Also, it's quite funny... you are arguing over pretty much a product review, and telling me that my own observations and learnings are incorrect. Nice man - definately the noob controller :). You ask for a study, yet I see nothing backing up your claims, at least all my opinions and experiences are first hand. Can you supply some first hand experience comparing Koni's with multiple springs, to different coilovers you have used and Spring and Shock combos?

CRXer

17-09-2008, 11:25 AM

Drive with both of them and compare. You'll be quite surprised...

sorry,i tend to believe the guys with shock dynos & years of racing experience in both driving & setting up(propoerly,actually knowing what they are trying to achieve),then one man who obviously doesnt have a clue whats going on under his car............

you ride against the overwhelming majority in most of your claims,maybe time to learn whats actually needed to be achieved under your car,your "IMO's" are starting to make u look real amateur........

VTECMACHINE

17-09-2008, 11:29 AM

I guess you have Koni's! :D

It's a forum mate. A place where people share opinions and experiences. If you can't add to them, and want to stick with your Koni's that's awesome.

Do you track you car? Because I have noticed a MASSIVE 2.1 second difference in lap times by just changing coilovers. Doesn't that say anything to you?

JohnL

17-09-2008, 06:39 PM

Majority of large Japanese suspension manufactuers state that overhauls should take place 10-15,000km's, or 1-2 years of driving for the shocks to work optimally.

From what I have learnt on my previous Japanese shocks or coilovers, is that this is very true.

I wouldn't disagree, and I'd go further; if you were racing seriously on them (implying a decent budget), then rebuilds might be advisable at the start of each season's racing to ensure optimum performance. This would go for any brand damper capable of being rebuilt.

Keep in mind that dampers used exclusively on the track would have an easier life than one used on the road, far less km and far smoother surfaces. Konis generally do seem to hold up well to longer periods of road usage (including rough roads), and many others seem not to...

OEM shocks do not need to be overhauled or replaced this regularily. If you would have to, i'd assume people would not be very happy.

This is because performance level for ordinary road use isn't nearly as important as it is for a 'sports' or racing application. Also, stock dampers are typically fairly soft in rate (with some exceptions), and the softer the valving the lower the internal pressures will be inside the damper. This means that the softer damper will tend to last longer than a stiffer damper, all else being equal. The stiffer the damper the higher it's quality needs to be in order to last X time / use. Keep in mind that the vast majority of OE dampers cannot be rebuilt as you have to destroy them to get them apart.

You or no one has to take me seriously. But i'm sure a few people trying to make their mind up about coilovers would appreciate hearing my good and bad experiences with coilovers, shocks and springs.

I expect that you are presenting your experience in good faith, so in that regard I am taking your opinion seriously. It's just that it's so at odds with my understanding and experience. Do note that I haven't used any derogative terms (e.g. BS) or attempted to belittle you.

So are you trying to justify Koni shocks with king springs or the likes are just as good, if not better than coilover systems like Tein, Fightex, Zeals etc...?

To some degree yes, but of course I don't have experience of every brand out there, and I expect almost nobody does (do note that in the article I linked to the author only bags some of the more common / popularly highly regarded brands, admitting to no experience with some others).

There may well be brands that perform overall as well or better than Koni (e.g. Bilstein), or others that perform as well or even better in specific circumstances and applications (and do note that Koni has dedicated racing dampers that are a step above their bread and butter lines). With many brands, the dampers they use in competition are a long way from their bread and butter, possibly the most notable exception being Bilstein (where the racing and road dampers are more or less internally identical), but I don't think Koni bread and butter is all that far from their cream. I'm not defending any particular brand of spring that might be used in conjunction with Konis (or other good dampers sold seperate to the springs).

I am trying to prick the too commonly held notion that aftermarket 'coilovers' are inherantly superior to aftermarket 'dampers and springs' (which of course are also coilovers) just because they are cleverly marketed as 'coilovers'.

I am defending Koni against being characterised as "crap" etc, because it just isn't the case (IMO, and that of many others, including many professional suspension engineers).

JohnL

17-09-2008, 07:13 PM

Because I have noticed a MASSIVE 2.1 second difference in lap times by just changing coilovers. Doesn't that say anything to you?

What it says to me (suggests at least) is that on that track on that day the 'coilovers' you used had spring / damper rates that more suited the prevailing conditions than the dampers / spring combination you were using previously.

It still sounds to me like you might be comparing apples and oranges (?) because the difference in lap times could have been due less to the dampers and more to do with any differences in spring rates, or anything else that might have been different between the two set ups such as ride heights....?

JohnL

17-09-2008, 07:18 PM

He also followed up with Koni and Bilstein to be the only readily available damper... niiiccceeee....

I'm sure you can get other high quality stand alone dampers if you go looking, and want to pay significantly more, but Koni and Bilstein would be by far the most common and readily sourced that would also bolt straight in...

VTECMACHINE

17-09-2008, 11:11 PM

JohnL

18-09-2008, 01:02 AM

Good points made above. And I might have been a little harsh in saying that they are crap. But comparing them to a "coilover" (yes I know that a shock spring is a coilover, just using this terms to differentiate the two) I didn't like them. And I most likely got a dogdgy set, cos they stuffed up on me.

It's not impossible that you had a "dodgy" set, even the best companies have quality control issues at times. It could be that Koni had a bad batch of something from a supplier, say seals or whatever, just speculating.

I know that you know that the stock set up is a coilover design, I just get a bit tired of so many people making the error of assuming that 'coilovers' are inherantly different in some manner. The more often this error is repeated the more misunderstanding is generated, though it is a rather convenient if false differentiation...

Sure, there are typically (by which I mean possibly not in all cases) more adjustments than you get with say a Koni, but typically the only really useful one is the infinite ride height adjustment (something else for people to mess up!). The 'coilover' bump rate adjusters are typically next to useless (almost zero range, despite a heap of 'clicks') and the range of rebound adjustment quite small re Konis (I've seen the dyno sheets).

Springs rates are the same, tyres were the same (only 6 months older and staler for the quicker run), same pressure, temps were 3 degrees warmer, ride height is identical, same camber, same wheel alignment settings, Car was the same weight,

Track rubber? There's a huge difference between a grippy and non grippy track. All it takes is a bit of rain and the grip goes away.

Only thing between the 2 systems that I noticed distinctly, is that the zeals react to one or 2 clicks of the damper controller, where as the BC's 7-15 was unnotiable. I pretty much went out there to compare the 2 different coilovers systems, as I like to test and see what new parts actually do to a car (I am learning afterall), and what better way is there to test than to throw them on your car and track?

So you were testing two different brands of 'coilover' against each other, not Konis / springs and 'coilovers'?

I'd suggest that if a big change on the adjuster makes no noticable difference (or only a small difference), then the damper is probably not very good...

You can do all the reading you want, and watch as many races on TV as you want... but if the variable between the seat and steering wheel is changing, what good is that in comparing different products?

That can be a big difference right there. I know from experience in karts that you can arrive at the track in the morning and play with the settings, getting faster and faster as the day goes on, but at the end of the day the set up can actually be worse than when you started, despite the faster times.

The reason being that as the day progressed the driver him/herself improved more than the set up deteriorated. This is especially possible if the driver is only in the kart every month or so (or less often), rather than every weekend. I'm sure it's the same for car drivers who aren't on the track all that often.

From what I have tried a shock is defiantely not a shock. The Zeal shat all over the BC 10 times over. Street, track, dirt roads. I just don't get how you can confidently comment on what is better if you haven't trialed multiple products on your own very car, holding as many variables constant as you can.

I'm not a suspension expert, though I have given the subject a fair bit of study and thought. I can only comment from my own experience and thinking, and from the experieces related to me by people who's opinion I trust, or from information I've read from apparently reliable, knowledgeable and experienced sources. It's the best any of us can do unless we can afford the money and time to test every available option in stringently controlled conditions.

It's funny that you say that, because I am still yet to meet someone with a Bilstein shock. Where as KW, Jap coilovers, Ohlins, Showa I have seen and tried first hand. Not all of the have been in my car per say.

I've yet to see Bilsteins on a Honda (on other cars yes), but I'm told they're not hard to get (hearsay though, never researched Bilstein availability for Hondas personally). Konis seem much more common, I suspect perhaps because most people really like the idea of having some adjustment, though adjustment per se doesn't necessarily mean that the damper is any better...

fatboyz39

18-09-2008, 07:49 AM

koni yellows are fine. Personally have used it and tracked it with some good results. Also car was daily driven for 60 000km on streets.

VTECMACHINE

18-09-2008, 11:22 AM

It's not impossible that you had a "dodgy" set, even the best companies have quality control issues at times. It could be that Koni had a bad batch of something from a supplier, say seals or whatever, just speculating.

Understood, and is most likely

I know that you know that the stock set up is a coilover design, I just get a bit tired of so many people making the error of assuming that 'coilovers' are inherantly different in some manner. The more often this error is repeated the more misunderstanding is generated, though it is a rather convenient if false differentiation...

Very true, people need to learn this.

Sure, there are typically (by which I mean possibly not in all cases) more adjustments than you get with say a Koni, but typically the only really useful one is the infinite ride height adjustment (something else for people to mess up!). The 'coilover' bump rate adjusters are typically next to useless (almost zero range, despite a heap of 'clicks') and the range of rebound adjustment quite small re Konis (I've seen the dyno sheets).

True.

Track rubber? There's a huge difference between a grippy and non grippy track. All it takes is a bit of rain and the grip goes away.

Yes, however... the conditions on the day were almost identical. Rained for 3 days before track day, and then cleared up the day before. I cannot comment on the amount of rubber lacing the track though. But conditions were as close as I would like them to have been.
If anything, the conditions of the track could not make up for 2.1 seconds.
If anything, by loss of power, gain in weight, and age of tyres, I SHOULD have been slower.

So you were testing two different brands of 'coilover' against each other, not Konis / springs and 'coilovers'?

I'd suggest that if a big change on the adjuster makes no noticable difference (or only a small difference), then the damper is probably not very good...

Correct. I was commenting on the statement made eariler in this thread on "shocks are shocks". Also, this is why I say Buddyclubs coilovers are NOT so great. I had never liked them.

That can be a big difference right there. I know from experience in karts that you can arrive at the track in the morning and play with the settings, getting faster and faster as the day goes on, but at the end of the day the set up can actually be worse than when you started, despite the faster times.

The reason being that as the day progressed the driver him/herself improved more than the set up deteriorated. This is especially possible if the driver is only in the kart every month or so (or less often), rather than every weekend. I'm sure it's the same for car drivers who aren't on the track all that often.

True, but karts are very different compared to cars.

I'm not a suspension expert, though I have given the subject a fair bit of study and thought. I can only comment from my own experience and thinking, and from the experieces related to me by people who's opinion I trust, or from information I've read from apparently reliable, knowledgeable and experienced sources. It's the best any of us can do unless we can afford the money and time to test every available option in stringently controlled conditions.

You can't comment on products by reading on them. For example, 99.99% of people have experienced more oversteer, when a thicker (say Cusco) sway bar is fitted. I on the otherhand, for some screwed up reason, have experienced extreme Understeer when it was fitted.
This is why I say let people share their opinions, because everyones cars are set up differently. Maybe not correctly... but differently.
I know myself, would rather listen and gather views from someone that has experimented with a handful of products in a short period of time, with a large amount of controlled variables - than some mate or random on the internet, who would have a biased opinion on a product, because they could be either jealous that you have something "better", or don't really know what is happening, or say that the street is a good enough place to 'test' out a product. Yet you say you gather your information from readings? How can this compare to first hand experiences.. I don't get it?

I've yet to see Bilsteins on a Honda (on other cars yes), but I'm told they're not hard to get (hearsay though, never researched Bilstein availability for Hondas personally). Konis seem much more common, I suspect perhaps because most people really like the idea of having some adjustment, though adjustment per se doesn't necessarily mean that the damper is any better...

How many people do you know with Bilsteins, compared to the people you know with say Teins, or something? Would you still say Bilstiens are MORE readily avaialble than Tein's, Zeals etc...?
Koni's are common because they are cheap, and good for the street. You say they are reliable - Great! I did not have this experience, and would not buy again. But is the majority likes them, then someone who is purchasing this product should not have any doubts in buying them. Yet, I have people come up to me after they ride shotgun with me, telling me that they regret buying Konis.