NEW 2009 Euro Luxury Auto Pinging

[Type R Positive]

Interesting, in that case if the owner sells the car and the person purchasing wouldn't know anything about it(just realise the person purchasing the car doesn't know about this forum)..thats a good thing not a bad thing....

[praja6]

thats a good thing not a bad thing....

I bet you guys, i don't think anyone affected with the bad pinging will sell this car, unless some urgent need for money or so...

The reason i asked this, one of my friend's 10months old CRV got oil leake from engine and they ended up replaced with new engine from japan.. THey didn't record this in logbook, but the dealer should have some record rite?
Good think, after he was having 10k on the clock, he got a new engine which is new(should be like start from zero km)and he is happy and after that no issue with his engine at all..

[chunsa]

Wow Raja, did Honda replace it under warranty?

[praja6]

Yeap for my friend they did.. as the brand new CRV got oil leakage after 3months of his purchase, trivett parra fixed it, then after 7months it started leaking again.. his car was at dealer service centre for nearly 3weeks.. He had to make lot of calls to the dealer then dealer manager. He is not happy with the delaer customer service, but they finally ended up replace the new engine...

He got only normal 3yrs warranty anyway...

He is now happy with the CRV, but he said he may be the unlucky one with that issue...

[Bilt]

I bet you guys, i don't think anyone affected with the bad pinging will sell this car, unless some urgent need for money or so...

The reason i asked this, one of my friend's 10months old CRV got oil leake from engine and they ended up replaced with new engine from japan.. THey didn't record this in logbook, but the dealer should have some record rite?
Good think, after he was having 10k on the clock, he got a new engine which is new(should be like start from zero km)and he is happy and after that no issue with his engine at all..

Already sold my Euro because of the pinginmg issue. I will not go thru this nightmare again. Will not buy Honda again! Will also not recommend Honda to anyone I know. They are a joke and I fdo not care what anyoner says on this forum as I have had to deal with the personaly. Warranty means nothing to Honda.

I'm glad that everything has worked out for the rest of you guys and wisjh yopu all the best but this was not the case for me. Honda was not willing to work with me so I have sold my vehicle. No more stress.


Good luck to the rest of you who may be encounteriung the pinging issues with the Euro.

Cheers

Bilt

[Zapped]

......That's how they can claim that there are only 60 affected cars in the whole of Australia: You simply couldn't prove any different.

Last Wednesday I took my 09 Luxi Navi to a Honda dealer in the northern suburbs of Melbourne where they confirmed that my car has the PING problem (or post combustion as they call it).

The technician told me that he alone has appliede the fix to about 80 of them.....So much for the 60 affected cars in the whole of Australia.

I have now been booked for the 16 June because they have to get the parts to fix it. I'll report back after the fix.

Cheers

[89superstage]

Over 1k posts later, Just some thoughts on this,
I own a 2008 May CU2 Auto L. amongst the first CU2's off the production line. Done 24k to date.
Do I have the 'Ping'? yes.
Have had it (or noticed it)? yes, since about 17k...
Does it affect perfomance, Strangley, NO.
has it had the 'ping' fix...no
I've driven poorly tuned, ill-fueled, Pinging, vehicles before, and one constant has been that the 'ping' always began at the near-bottom of the rev range, and got worse as you pushed the pedal further, ending with the engine cutting out!
I've never experienced the above with my Accord Euro. the 'ping' begins at the top of the rev range in 2-3rd gear,2.5-2.8RPM. and its erratic,depending on Load- Terrain, beyond which, its pure pleasure to dirve.
Its always been fuelled with 95'. I'd not fuel it with 98, as I'm of the opinion, that if I did, Honda should have to pay the differnce, as they recommend 95!!!

The only variable I can site, on this forum, is that its generally warmer in Oz, where most of the complaints come from, than it is in NZ. I have to admit, I first noticed the 'Ping' during the past summer! and that was after my kids got over the stereo, and I had the opportunity to drive listening to the engine sing!

We get the same fuel you do(I believe). So perhaps I'm (we're) lucky.

It brings me back to the possibilty that insufficient ground/field tesing was conducted, pior to launching this model, to accomodate fuel quality etc, in the Euro's launch market!, thats honda's folly.
Is it a bad car, No (picture yourself driving a Camry today!!?)

Would I recommend it? yes, have already...

Cheers,
Des

[Irving]

Already sold my Euro because of the pinginmg issue. I will not go thru this nightmare again. Will not buy Honda again! Will also not recommend Honda to anyone I know. They are a joke and I fdo not care what anyoner says on this forum as I have had to deal with the personaly. Warranty means nothing to Honda.

I'm glad that everything has worked out for the rest of you guys and wisjh yopu all the best but this was not the case for me. Honda was not willing to work with me so I have sold my vehicle. No more stress.


Good luck to the rest of you who may be encounteriung the pinging issues with the Euro.

Cheers

Bilt

Yep, Owning a HONDA has been a NIGHTMARE!

NEVER AGAIN!!!!

I HAVE HAD NOTHING BUT TROUBLE WITH THIS PING.

THINKING OF TRADING UP TO A HYUNDAI (i45).

[toniche]

no wonder on carsales people are selling their CU2 with just few thousand kms on the clock.
I was in the market for a CU2. i might get a CU2 with no ping issue like the majority of CU2 owners (according to this forum)
but it definitely will affect the resale value when people noticed ping problem with this car. personally i will not buy a second hand CU2 in fear of ping problem where previous owner just want to get rid of the car.
if i buy a new CU2 I will be in fear that the ping might appear in few months when Kms build up. I am a busy person and have no time to take the car for a fix.
with all these hassles in the head I decided to go for golf GTI with leather which cost little less and faster ( i was goin for CU2 lux manual approx 42k.)
in addition the service I have received from Honda dealer was a nightmare compare to VW
I had 2 honda before, they were reliable cars with solid resale value.
from jazz to civic, was going fro civic to euro. but sorry honda, I have to skip this time..

[antony]

My Euro is only 13 days old,but I have allready done 1200 kilometers.

It was a April 16 build,but very silent...besides a small rattle coming from the left front door ??? which will be dealt with tomorrow at its first service.

I have moved over from VW ,after having had 4.

Hope my Euro will be as good as my 3 year old Jetta which was written off in the hail.

Toniche,I just did not want to deal with arrogant VW dealers anymore,after lots of squeeks,rattles,vibrations,and other quality related annoying niggles over the years.

[Irving]

A recent study showed that 6/10 (60%) of the population is hearing impaired.

These people will NEVER HEAR THE PING. (I hope they are also not blind or can't read).

I was in a Park with my Dog yesterday where there is a Round About where one of the exits leads onto a slight Hill. An approaching vehicle needs to slow down to enter the Round About and then accelerate uphill.
In the space of 15 minutes 3 Euros went by. Well, All three PINGED.... The owners seemed blissfully unaware of the problem.

If you can't hear the PING, then consider yourself lucky, or unlucky (as the case may be) to be one of the 6....

So, guys don't worry about the PING. Just enjoy it. :thumbsup: :p

ps. Blogging on this thread has been a waste of time (like talking to Honda Australia).

Enjoy....
Bye now.

[aaronng]

Is it a pinging or a ringing sound when heard from the outside? Some auto transmissions give a ringing sound when heard from the outside under acceleration. Happens to my mum's daihatsu, eventhough it's engine is spec'd for 91RON but it gets fed 98RON.

[aaronng]

ps. Blogging on this thread has been a waste of time (like talking to Honda Australia).

Enjoy....
Bye now.
Wow, what a "nice" way to brush off all the other members in this thread. :thumbsdwn:

[praja6]

Wow, what a "nice" way to brush off all the other members in this thread. :thumbsdwn:

I think thats his personal opinon. I think lot of people here really appreciatete this forum for the help and guidance from people here...

[buddah51au]

A few things strike me about that comment, if you spent 15 minutes at a roundabout in any city it would be fairly unlikely you would see 3 CL9's, let alone 3 CU2's. On most occasions the pinging (or post combustion noise) in a cu2 is barely audible inside the car, let alone hearing it from a distance. Oh, I had a full medical in May & my hearing was noted at 9 out of 10, so that is not an issue. Some people seem to think if they have a problem with their car, every car of that particular model must be effected & a number of us on this forum know that is not the case.

Then to talk about trading down to an I 45 Hyundai where every road test to date has been critical of NVH levels & steering rack rattles just does not add up. Granted, the I 45 has a 6 speed auto which is a benefit, but it is sealed for life meaning it can't be serviced. That is a major detraction for anyone who wants to keep a car for any length of time. If someone was unhappy with a CU2 & were in a position to take the financial hit that goes with selling any car within the first few years of it's life surely the Liberty / Mazda 6 would be the logical cars to consider.

A quote from a road test of the I 45 " If you were comparing the i45 against the Holden Epica or perhaps the Chrysler Sebring, there's no contest. If, however, the Mondeo, the Accord Euro, the Mazda6 and the Liberty are on your list, the i45 doesn't make the grade. Suzuki's new (smaller) Kizashi might also be a better option. " No more needs to be said.

Maybe 1 day in the future a car company will be able to build a perfect car, but at this present point in time there is no perfect car, be it a Lada or a Bugatti & everything in between.

[Irving]

Hey, I live in a big city with lots of lights and lots and lots of cars.....you should visit sometime.

You mentioned "financial hit" who is worried about a financial hit? I even offered to pay for a new EMC costing $1880 (trade price) if the dealer could guarantee that this would fix the problem. He can't! Says it's a characteristic of the car.....

[buddah51au]

There is no bigger city in Australia than Sydney & I spent too many years living & working there, so I do know about the lights & traffic chaos. These days I only go there to see friends & family.

[antony]

Well I had my service today,rattle fixed,it was a faulty door seal ,and it is now as quiet as a mouse...

[moo moo nel]

Last Wednesday I took my 09 Luxi Navi to a Honda dealer in the northern suburbs of Melbourne where they confirmed that my car has the PING problem (or post combustion as they call it).

The technician told me that he alone has appliede the fix to about 80 of them.....So much for the 60 affected cars in the whole of Australia.

I have now been booked for the 16 June because they have to get the parts to fix it. I'll report back after the fix.

Cheers


any update?
got some pinging in my brother's CU2 manual in lower speed

[Zapped]

any update?
got some pinging in my brother's CU2 manual in lower speed

Yes, the fix was applied on the 16 June as scheduled and I haven't heard the pinging since.

The fact that this thread hasn't been used for a while sugests to me that Honda has finally managed to fix the problem once for all.

[SPQR]

2 years later....

[Euro707]

Thanks guys.........I haven't checked this forum for a few months. Then stumbled upon a post -I think by Irving.??

Yes, I am one of the MANY luckless CU2 Lux owners with a pinging power plant @2000-3,500 rpm's.

Yes, I complained to :honda:
Yes, I had 3 "patch fixes":thumbdwn:
Yes,I complained to the dealer (numerous times and threatened legal action):zip:
Yes, I complained to Fair Trading:wave:

I always use to use Caltex Vortex 98 ROM.

But, I read some ones post here about Ultima.......ran the tank down to 15 kms.

Then filled the tank with Ultima

BINGO :)

Loads more power..... 7.1l /100kms(country) and LITTLE or no fkcukn PINGING.

I really gave it a good boot up Mt Ousley yesterday for the true test in S-mode and she lapped it up.

So its Ultima for me from now on. God knows whats in it ??/ I thought all petrol came out of the same Cat Cracker and we were just marketed different brands.

I still have a bitter taste in my mouth over the contempt from HA to me as a customer.
I have made damn sure lots of people know about how shite they are.

Don't get me wrong though -I love the car.
Just hate Honda Australia-who treat the customer as first class CHUMPS.
"What you sow.....you shall reap " !!

BUT- as they say in the Thai massage shops :

I got Happy Ending:p

[cathay]

Hi All

I m from Singapore. Recently noticed a low rattling noise coming from e front right part of e engine bay. Noise is just noticeable when acc from a low cruising speed. Wasn't there at first or maybe I blast e audio most of e time. Not always but occasionally. Now after reading all these pages I tens to agree with e school tat lives n let live with tis problem. Just hope it doesn't get louder as e day passes.

[Fredoops]

Thanks guys.........I haven't checked this forum for a few months. Then stumbled upon a post -I think by Irving.??

Yes, I am one of the MANY luckless CU2 Lux owners with a pinging power plant @2000-3,500 rpm's.

Yes, I complained to :honda:
Yes, I had 3 "patch fixes":thumbdwn:
Yes,I complained to the dealer (numerous times and threatened legal action):zip:
Yes, I complained to Fair Trading:wave:

I always use to use Caltex Vortex 98 ROM.

But, I read some ones post here about Ultima.......ran the tank down to 15 kms.

Then filled the tank with Ultima

BINGO :)

Loads more power..... 7.1l /100kms(country) and LITTLE or no fkcukn PINGING.

I really gave it a good boot up Mt Ousley yesterday for the true test in S-mode and she lapped it up.

So its Ultima for me from now on. God knows whats in it ??/ I thought all petrol came out of the same Cat Cracker and we were just marketed different brands.

I still have a bitter taste in my mouth over the contempt from HA to me as a customer.
I have made damn sure lots of people know about how shite they are.

Don't get me wrong though -I love the car.
Just hate Honda Australia-who treat the customer as first class CHUMPS.
"What you sow.....you shall reap " !!

BUT- as they say in the Thai massage shops :

I got Happy Ending:p

That meant there's something up with the ping sensor....

[Irving]

That meant there's something up with the ping sensor....

Nope.... The Knock Sensor is basically a microphone which was replaced by :honda: with a more sensitive one during the ping fix.

It's true that BP Ultimate is possibly a cure for this issue. Kowever, I used to get the odd tank that pinged.

I am now using SUPERMARKET BRAND 95 RON mostly without PCS. Most tanks are great! there is absolutely no PCS. Now and then I get a tank which gives me slight PCS (not enough to worry about).

So, now I get get my fuel from Tesco and rack up club card points to boot....
Hwy economy is 7.1 ltr/100Kms and city is 8 lts/100kms.

I can't comment on the details of the additives of these fuels or their long term effects on the engine. However, I try to run the car on Tesco fuel for 5000miles then 1 tank of BP Ultimate 98, then back to Tesco 95. This seems to work fine in my car.

[89superstage]

I reckon its the fuel quality that causes this. Had a similar experience to Irving, switched brands and the PCS reduced or stopped completely.
I too use Supermarket 95' fuel here in NZ, and give it the occasional 'treat' with 98, BP or Mobil, car's running just fine. economy's like Irving's above.

[Fredoops]

Nope.... The Knock Sensor is basically a microphone which was replaced by :honda: with a more sensitive one during the ping fix.

It's true that BP Ultimate is possibly a cure for this issue. Kowever, I used to get the odd tank that pinged.

I am now using SUPERMARKET BRAND 95 RON mostly without PCS. Most tanks are great! there is absolutely no PCS. Now and then I get a tank which gives me slight PCS (not enough to worry about).

So, now I get get my fuel from Tesco and rack up club card points to boot....
Hwy economy is 7.1 ltr/100Kms and city is 8 lts/100kms.

I can't comment on the details of the additives of these fuels or their long term effects on the engine. However, I try to run the car on Tesco fuel for 5000miles then 1 tank of BP Ultimate 98, then back to Tesco 95. This seems to work fine in my car.

Is yours a k20 or k24 tho?

I'm hesitant to say it's fuel quality problem since the yanks some times use 93ron in the TSX without the same issues.

[Irving]

^ k24

[BigBen]

I've got a 2012 completely stock with less than 1000km at the clock and it does ping at high loads with the aircon on and its noticeable at about 5k-6k rpm range. Notice it more when I drop from 4th to 3th on the auto box.

What oil is filled in these engine from the factory? That is what is the viscosity?

Could the pinging be caused by blowby from prolong idling in stop go traffic with the aircon on.

The main difference I notice is that the 2012 TSX runs a 0w-20 oil as a factory fill and the Aussies one run 5w-30 or even a 10w-40?

I personally doubt that the viscosity will cause the pinging but blowby from the PCV might?

Any ideas?

[aaronng]

Is yours a k20 or k24 tho?

I'm hesitant to say it's fuel quality problem since the yanks some times use 93ron in the TSX without the same issues.

Yanks don't use RON. They use a different system (PON)

Their 87 octane is equal to our 91 RON, 89 octane is 95 RON and 91 octane is 98 RON.

Their 93 octane is equivalent to our 100 RON, which you rarely find anymore without ethanol.

[SPQR]

The main difference I notice is that the 2012 TSX runs a 0w-20 oil as a factory fill and the Aussies one run 5w-30 or even a 10w-40?.....Any ideas?

It's colder in North America than Australia. That might explain the oil viscosity difference.

[Fredoops]

It's colder in North America than Australia. That might explain the oil viscosity difference.

Nope, it's about reported fuel consumption, 0w-20 gives better fuel economy than 5w-30

Also... Australian market is different from the states. They don't have to give us all the good stuff.

[aaronng]

Using 0w-20 is a dodgy way for Acura to achieve lower fuel economy figures. Most people over there do 3 year leases anyway, so even if the engine is fked up by the oil, it doesn't worry them since they will be getting a new car.

[BigBen]

Just an update, car still pings, Honda service people say its normal. They better give me a new engine if I put a nice hole in one or more piston that all I can say.

[BigBen]

I've solved my pinging issue with my car, and no I didn't sell it to get something else.

I've clocked over 700km after a small change and since then the car hasn't ping once. I've filled up 1/2 tank of fuel from different servos about 4 times now just to discount that its not a servo related issue.

After a spirited drive up and down the Nasho this afternoon and being stuck behind slow moving traffic I can successfully say that I haven't heard the car ping.

I drove in normal and sports mode and I use the air con all the time. Wow its good not to have to worry about the pinging from the engine anymore.

[antony]

I've solved my pinging issue with my car, and no I didn't sell it to get something else.

I've clocked over 700km after a small change and since then the car hasn't ping once. I've filled up 1/2 tank of fuel from different servos about 4 times now just to discount that its not a servo related issue.

After a spirited drive up and down the Nasho this afternoon and being stuck behind slow moving traffic I can successfully say that I haven't heard the car ping.

I drove in normal and sports mode and I use the air con all the time. Wow its good not to have to worry about the pinging from the engine anymore.

Just enjoy your Euro now,as its such an awesome car...

[BigBen]

Just enjoy your Euro now,as its such an awesome car...

Hell yeah, I took it to Nasho on the weekend, and clocked 16 litres/100km in spirited driving hehehe. I'm going to retract my comment on what a sh!t car the CU2 is. After the pinging has been solved, I played around with the tyre pressures - now running 38psi all round and this really transform the car. No more spongy ride. Even at 38PSI the stock suspension handles the bumps without bottoming out. Handles off camber corners really well at spirited driving.

You need to rev the **** off the engine, ie keep it about 5000-7000rpm and the CU2 is actually a very nimble drive. I just wish there is a way to turn off the electric power steering at above 70km/h. The steering is still too light and numb for my liking.

[lmurr78]

So how did you fix the issue? or am i blind.. :D

[psykotech]

I have an MY13 CU2 6MT which is pinging. For reference I've always filled up with 98 (BP/Shell) from metro service stations that get plenty of traffic.

The car seemed ok for the first 1000km, it became noticeable around the time the 1500km service was done. Nothing was noted during the inspection.

A week after the 1500km service was done I took it in to have it checked, the service manager had a quick listen and told me to mention it when I dropped it in for the 6 month/10,000km service.

During the next two months it became even worse, especially when it was cold. At around 3000-3500rpm it literally sounded like a diesel, so I pretty much avoided driving the car unless absolutely necessary.

Two weeks ago, with just on 2000km on the clock I took it back again, booked in to be checked over on the 5/10. They noted a misfire/ping starting at around 3100rpm. They replaced the plugs, checked the injectors (fine), tested the fuel (fine) and the operation of the knock sensor. They added some injector cleaner and gave it back to me to see how it went. It seemed ok driving home from the dealership, but the next morning it was back to how it was before.

On the 10/10 I took it back in, they had it 3 days so they could test it while hot & cold, apparently were in contact with Honda's technicians most of the time trying different things to fix it. I picked it up on the 12th, was told to run out the remaining fuel (2/3 tank) and then fill with BP. The service manager pretty much admitted that fuel wasn't going to be the cause, since it was fine sometimes. During the time it was in they damaged the centre console and left something loose under the dash, they've said they'll fix it though.

The next day, it was just as bad as it was before it went in. At 3000rpm it sounds like a tractor. They promise no damage is being done, but I'm not convinced.

At this stage I'll play their game, run the fuel out and try a different brand, but I'm fairly certain it'll make no difference.

Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed?

[redseven]

Hell yeah, I took it to Nasho on the weekend, and clocked 16 litres/100km in spirited driving hehehe. I'm going to retract my comment on what a sh!t car the CU2 is. After the pinging has been solved, I played around with the tyre pressures - now running 38psi all round and this really transform the car. No more spongy ride. Even at 38PSI the stock suspension handles the bumps without bottoming out. Handles off camber corners really well at spirited driving.

38psi is like 2.6 bars? That's a bit higher than the 2.2 recommended for usual driving. Gotta try this though :) The CU2 just begs to be driven hard.

As for pinging, would it be a high pitched ringing sound or a low pitched clatter? CU2's here in China are tuned only for RON93 so I'm wondering if pinging is happening on the crap fuel.

[chris41]

Im so suprised this is still and issue with the Euro! I had the knock sensor and software upgrade completed under warranty in October 2009 with the 12month/20k service. No pinging evident there after. My MY09 6MT Standard has now covered 50thou kms and I run either 95 or 98 octane fuels without the post combustion noise.
Also, like BigBen's post above I run 38psi as recommended in the Falken tyres that Ive fitted now as replcements to the original Bridgestones.

[snajper]

I had the same problem with my non euro Accord (new shape) for almost 3 years. It has been back to the dealer countless times with no luck until my bad battery blew my ECU which was replaced under warranty and it has been fine since.

[BigBen]

2.2 bar feels like a boat floating in rough waters.

[BigBen]

No damge is done...i would get that in writing from them.

[psykotech]

I have an MY13 CU2 6MT which is pinging. For reference I've always filled up with 98 (BP/Shell) from metro service stations that get plenty of traffic.

The car seemed ok for the first 1000km, it became noticeable around the time the 1500km service was done. Nothing was noted during the inspection.

A week after the 1500km service was done I took it in to have it checked, the service manager had a quick listen and told me to mention it when I dropped it in for the 6 month/10,000km service.

During the next two months it became even worse, especially when it was cold. At around 3000-3500rpm it literally sounded like a diesel, so I pretty much avoided driving the car unless absolutely necessary.

Two weeks ago, with just on 2000km on the clock I took it back again, booked in to be checked over on the 5/10. They noted a misfire/ping starting at around 3100rpm. They replaced the plugs, checked the injectors (fine), tested the fuel (fine) and the operation of the knock sensor. They added some injector cleaner and gave it back to me to see how it went. It seemed ok driving home from the dealership, but the next morning it was back to how it was before.

On the 10/10 I took it back in, they had it 3 days so they could test it while hot & cold, apparently were in contact with Honda's technicians most of the time trying different things to fix it. I picked it up on the 12th, was told to run out the remaining fuel (2/3 tank) and then fill with BP. The service manager pretty much admitted that fuel wasn't going to be the cause, since it was fine sometimes. During the time it was in they damaged the centre console and left something loose under the dash, they've said they'll fix it though.

The next day, it was just as bad as it was before it went in. At 3000rpm it sounds like a tractor. They promise no damage is being done, but I'm not convinced.

At this stage I'll play their game, run the fuel out and try a different brand, but I'm fairly certain it'll make no difference.

Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed?

To follow up on this:

I ran out the remaining fuel as instructed and filled it with BP ultimate, but still had the same issues.

I dropped it back in on the 29/10, this time they had it for four days, during which they did replace the scratched console trim. When I picked it up it still had the same problems, I took it for a drive with the foreman who noted exactly what was happening and said they'd replace the knock sensor and make some further adjustments.

15/11 it went back in. Today it had been eleven days and not a single call, so I called to ask what was going on, the service manager told me the knock sensor hadn't come in, but it should be there in a few days.

This evening I called Honda Australia and lodged a complaint as I felt it's past the point of being a reasonable amount of time since the dealer was made aware of the problem and at this stage they still haven't fixed it.

[psykotech]

Picked up the car today. It's still pinging.

The service department have said they've done everything they can, so now an inspector from Honda Australia will need to look at it. Looks like it'll either need to be a new engine, a new car or a refund.

[BigBen]

ok this is how I stop my car from pinging. It may be controversial but who gives a flying f*ck.

To squeeze out the extra power and fuel economy Honda USA uses a 0w-20 oil as a factory fill. In Australia Honda uses 5w-30 as a factory fill.
The Honda service dept said the pinging was normal which was a total copout.

People think that using a thicker oil give better protection than a thinner oil which is infact incorrect. It MAY be so in a enduro racing environment where you are at redline all the time. In real world driving thinner is better. In normal driving conditions you'll be luckly if you can hold redline for 10 seconds.

What you want is the thinnest oil possible for your engine protection. A thinner oil flows better than a thicker oil. Thinner oil reduces friction, thicker oil increase fiction and friction generates extra heat. Oil in an engine acts as lubricate as well as a coolant to reduce / remove heat from the pistons. If you know people who build engines, especially motorcycle engines, they all have oil injectors under the pistons to cool the pistons down. MV Agusta F4, BMW S1000RR engines pumps out 200hp out of a 1litre motor and these engines don’t ping. Oil is used to cool engine components down.

Using a thinner oil reduces component drag, from friction, oil pump works more efficiently which / does reduce the engine temperature. If everything else is equal a cooler engine reduces the chances of pinging compare to an engine that is running hotter.

Remember the temperature gauge you see is actually the temperature of the coolant not the engine oil temperature. People think that because we live in a very hot country we should use a thicker oil. Which is bullcrap. The radiator / thermostat regulates the engine temperature not the temperature outside.

The engine temperature once warmed up should be the same in subzero temperatures as well as 50deg C temperatures.

My theory is that using a thinner oil which is factory filled in the USA, should solve my pinging problem.

I had some 0w-20 Amsoil that I use in our Toyota Prius and I thought what the hell, give it a go. So I dumped the factory filled 5w-30 oil and put the 0w-20 Amsoil. Drove around for 20 minutes in stop go traffic to build up heat and try to make the car ping. I turn on the aircon to add more load on the engine and the engine didn’t ping.

You can give it a try, it will only cost you $100 and 1/2 hour of your time to change the oil. If you think the oil is too thin, the drain it and put 5w-30 back in there.

I’ve been using the 0w-20 for over 16,000km and no pinging.

This is only my findings and observation, I take no responsibility if your engine blows up etc. BTW I've driven from Seattle to Las Vegas via Death Valley (hottest place in the world) to visit friends and the car I was driving didn't blow up or left me stranded. I didn't have to change the engine oil for a thicker oil because I am going to Death Valley. Yes the car was filled with 0w-20 which is normal in the US for majority of cars there.

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6212-en

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAYkigNbzgs

[SPQR]

...After the pinging has been solved, I played around with the tyre pressures - now running 38psi all round and this really transform the car. No more spongy ride. Even at 38PSI the stock suspension handles the bumps without bottoming out. Handles off camber corners really well at spirited driving.

I've used higher tyre pressures in my cars for years; although I prefer a pressure differential front to rear. I usually run my car with 38-40psi front and 32-34psi rear: It sharpens turn-in into corners.

I think your later post about using a thinner oil and it being better for engines is spot-on (although each has to make up their own mind). I've done this in some of my previous cars.

I've not purchased a CU2 because of the ongoing pinging issue. I don't think that Acura USA uses a thinner oil in the TSX because it's generally colder there simply because it's not true. Southern California has more cars than the whole of Australia and it has a mild climate. Yes, there are colder places but surely Acura wouldn't fill their cars with different oils because they could end up anywhere in the USA.

In any case, the Acura TSX is made in the same Japanese factory as our Honda Accord Euro version. Why would they prefill with a different oil for Australia? Our climate range in not much different to that of the USA.

[psykotech]

Having a Honda Australia technician and a service inspector take a look at the car this Friday.

I'm hoping they'll be able to resolve it one way or another.

[praja6]

Guys, Does the Honda Feo ultra Fully Synthatic oil, is it thin oil or thick oil.. thanks

[Fredoops]

Guys, Does the Honda Feo ultra Fully Synthatic oil, is it thin oil or thick oil.. thanks

Group 3 synthetic
5w-30

Thin-ish.

[praja6]

Ah ok. this may be correct with Bigben.. Mine is euro Cu2 My10 jan 2010 made auto... I was fully aware of the ping issue when i bought the car. I don't know its the ping sound, i heard twice, the sound was like if someone throw small stones on top of the tin roof. Thatt time AC was on and it was winter time June early morning.

That time the oil was the original oil filled from factory. Since the 1st 6months service i ask the dealer to use Honda Feo Ultra fully synthatic oil. Eventhough my car is low milage, they charged me extra 40 for fully syntatic oil.. After the 1st 6months service(so far i changed with fully synthatic oil 3 times), i never heard the ping or any rattling sound in my car. I always use BP ultimate...

May be people using Fully synthatic oil may be an answer for the ping issue, i am just guessing.. People with ping issue can mention here what type of oil they are using..

thanks


Group 3 synthetic
5w-30

Thin-ish.

[Fredoops]

imma take a stab here to say those who are getting pining from newwe models are using Xw-40 grade semi synthetic oil or thicker.

Factory is 0w-20 since 2011 iirc

[BigBen]

imma take a stab here to say those who are getting pining from newwe models are using Xw-40 grade semi synthetic oil or thicker.

Factory is 0w-20 since 2011 iirc

Nah, factory fill is still 5w-30 Mobil 1 as 0w-20 is still hard to get in Australia.

[BigBen]

pinging sound like a faint rattle from a bottle of spray paint.

[EKVTIR-T]

Pinging/knocking is detonation,how can varying oil grade create that...

[Fredoops]

Pinging/knocking is detonation,how can varying oil grade create that...

One theory (and this is just a theory)..

Its a surface ignition of sort as opposed to a spark knock, since it's not happening all the time when the engine is on.

With the higher tolerance level in the K24 used in the CU2 (which was designed to use 0w-20 engine oil bare in mind) means theres possibility that the thick oil may not reach and coat certain areas effectively, which could lead to the the creation of "hot spots" causing surface ignition when fuel hits it.

[psykotech]

I've been sent an official letter from Honda Australia, signed by Ken Sheppard (customer relations specialist) which states:


As you are aware your vehicle was inspected and driven with you by Technical Representatives of Honda Australia. At this inspection there was no evidence of abnormal sounds from the engine of your vehicle. It was determined that the sounds causing your concern are consistent for this engine under certain operating conditions.

So according to Honda, the engine is operating in spec and pinging is completely normal.

[BigBen]

I've been sent an official letter from Honda Australia, signed by Ken Sheppard (customer relations specialist) which states:



So according to Honda, the engine is operating in spec and pinging is completely normal.


That's the similar lines that the Honda service department told me - F*ckers. They have the nerve to call me a month ago to ask me how my car is going and would I like to book in a schedule service with them!!

I gave them a piece of my mind about the pinging and also told them that they put swirls marks on my car when they gave the car a wash.

[boleh]

wtf... 2008.. 2009.. 2010.. 2011.. 2012 and now 2013.. and Honda still hasn't fixed this infamous pinging issue?

back in 2008, i remember that only automatic transmission CU2's were affected. but now we have one dude with the same problem on his 2013 6MT??

[CU2 Euro 09]

It was always both transmissions. It's the engine not the transmission that pings champ.

[tknova]

It was always both transmissions. It's the engine not the transmission that pings champ.

Nah mate, first reports it was only AT CU2's. Not saying your wrong as your 100% correct that pinging has nothing to do with the transmission, but at the start it seemed to only come from Auto Owners on OzHonda.

I still have doubts about it being the Oil Visc causing pinging, but you never know!
I'm still betting on a electrical/ECU problem as it's intermittent.

I'd also like to ask Honda what the 'Operating Conditions' are that would make the vehicle ping?

[Irving]

Guys, please make note that the original pinging in the auto version of the CU2 is not the same as the post combustion sound (PCS) described at length in this thread.
The ping fix incorporated the replacement of the knock sensor with a more sensitive unit and the upgrade of software to the ECU and the automatic transmission.

My 2009 manual CU2 never suffered from pinging but had bad PCS after the so called ping fix.
My CU2's PCS issue was cured after I moved to UK in 2010> accidently may I add, by using Mobil 1 0W-30 ESP - Thank you BigBen for isolating this for all of us.
The fuel that I use is 95 octane supermarket cheapo (which is obviously sourced from a major fuel supplier).

[Irving]

Listed below are the specifications for a few oils from the same manufacturer - in this case Exxonmobil. The data shows that there are variations in the viscosity at 40ºC and 100ºC.
I have also included the specification for Amsoil 0W-20 as this oil is mentioned in this thread.

Assuming that most of the engine wear occurs at startup, we want an oil that is thin enough to flow fast at startup and have enough viscosity at normal operating temperature to keep the metal parts lubricated.
The ideal number seems to be 10. So, we should select an oil that is close to 10 @ 40ºC and 100ºC respectively.
The above holds true for vehicles under normal operating condition with the exception of racing, where a racing oil should be selected.

* The oils listed below are all Synthetic oil. If you are using Mineral oil or a Synthetic/Mineral blend, the properties will vary considerably.

Typical Properties
Mobil 1 ESP Formula 0W-30
SAE Grade 0W-30
Viscosity, cSt at 40ºC ASTM D445 67.8
Viscosity, cSt at 100ºC ASTM D445 12.2

Typical Properties
Mobil 1 0W-40
SAE Grade 0W-40
Viscosity, cSt at 40ºC ASTM D445 71
Viscosity, cSt at 100ºC ASTM D445 13.5

Typical Properties
Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
SAE Grade 5W-30
Viscosity, cSt at 40ºC ASTM D445 72.8
Viscosity, cSt at 100ºC ASTM D445 12.1

Typical Properties
Mobil 1 0W-20
SAE Grade 0W-20
Viscosity, @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 44.8
Viscosity, @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 8.5


AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil
Typical Properties
Amsoil 0W-20
Viscosity, @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 46.7
Viscosity, @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 8.8

It seems that the CU2 (K24Z) engine’s oil specification is to be changed as mentioned in this youtube clip from Honda. At 50 seconds, Jeff Jetter, mentions Honda’s plan to move to 0W20 oil retroactively to 2001 for most of it’s vehicles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAYkigNbzgs

The new Group 5 oils are rewriting history it seems and I plan to fill with 0W20 at my next oil change and have the added bonus of better fuel economy.

So what about the post combustion sound (PCS) problem?
It seems that the low viscosity numbers allow the engine to rev more freely without labouring and the cooling effect of a lower viscosity oil as it flows more freely.

[Irving]

The new GF5 (Group 5) oils are now becoming available in UK & EU. I would think that they can be found in USA too. As you can see from the spider chart below there are many advantages to using GF5 over GF4.
Both Amsoil and Total have GF5 oils in UK but you need to check the specification of the formulation as GF4 is still being sold.
Note: Engine oil cannot be shipped overseas due to it being a flammable liquid.

I will be changing to GF5 in April (12 month interval) and plan to use 0W20. It is also a good idea to do the oil change in Spring as very cold weather can be pretty tough on an oil (separation of waxes etc).
My CU2 has just 28,000 kms on the clock.The current long term fuel efficiency is 8.3 ltr/100km. Which I think is pretty good considering the traffic over here. I expect some improvement with 0W20.

So, from my experience with 0W30 Synthetic (which I have been using since late 2010), the engine revs more freely and it does not PCS or ping. As seen from the viscosity numbers, I would expect 0W20 to be better....especially for low milage CUs and then, you may want to consider 0W30 and then 0W40 (in that order). Also, I would suggest synthetic oil over mineral oil or blends. Note that some oils I have mentioned may not be 100% synthetic as there seems to be some argument as to what exactly constitutes a synthetic oil.

Bear in mind that most of the engine wear occurs at startup (especially cold) and an oil with a low viscosity that flows fast is able to lubricate the engine more quickly than a Tar like oil that is hard to pump! So, try to get a 0W-X oil if you can.

The PCS problem with my CU2 is now a distant memory..... no a nightmare, that I am happy to put behind me.

24125

[BigBen]

I agree with Irving 100%. After running close to 25,000km on Amsoil 0w-20 I'm happy to say that I hear no pinging at all. I'm really enjoying the car the way the engineers design it to be.

Even in the +45 Deg C heat with the aircon switch on stuck in Sydney traffic that we had last month I had no pinging what so ever. I remember that day because there were a number of traffic lights out of commission. Cars we broken down in the middle of the road which overheated which made traffic coming home one of the worse commute I ever encountered - but no pinging!!! Woo Hoo.

[Irving]

The K24Z engine either has a design flaw or was intended to be lubricated by a low viscosity oil (0W-20, 0W-30 or 5W-30). Note: I have tested Mobil 1 5W-30 and 0W-30 in UK with good results and Ben has tested Amsoil 0W20. I have not tested 0W-40 and cannot say if it will eliminate PCS.

The viscosity of an oil ideally should be around 10 bearing in mind that a lower viscosity fluid is easier to pump and travels more easily through oil passages. It has to flow at the correct rate in order to lubricate and extract heat from critical components. If the oil flows faster or slower, it wouldn’t be doing it’s job properly. So, the correct flow rate is important.

The engine oil temperature is generally higher than the coolant temperature in cars by 10ºC to 15ºC. Also, the oil temperature will generally take longer to come to operating temperature than the coolant temperature. This is probably the reason that PCS was more prevalent when the engine was cold. Even if the engine coolant temperature showed ‘normal’ it is unlikely that the oil temperature was at operating temperature. Therefore, the oil had a higher viscosity and was harder to pump and flowed less freely, dissipating less heat from the engine’s cylinder head and allowing more heat to build up. Thermal runaway (in electronic terms). Until the driver eased up and less load was put on the engine. The engine then cooled sufficiently so that post combustion did not occur until the peak load was again demanded of the engine.
Interestingly, the PCS in my CU2 started at around 3900 rpm and was most prevalent as the engine approached peak torque. The CU2’s peak torque is quoted at 234Nm@ 4300-4400 rpm - Is this a coincidence? I think not!

Below are viscosity values generated through extrapolating from the known figures @40ºC and 100ºC (based on ASTM341) together with it's related graphical representation of Temperature vs Kinematic Viscosity:

Mobil 1 0W30 ESP
Temperature ºC Kinematic Viscosity cSt

0 ----519.39
10 ----281.18
15 ----213.17
20 ----164.51
25 ----129.03
30 ----102.74
35 ----82.93
40 ---- 67.8
50 ---- 46.89
60 ---- 33.75
70 ---- 25.14
80 ---- 19.28
90 ---- 15.17
100 ---- 12.20
110 ---- 10
115 ---- 9.12

More temperature - Kinematic viscosity values have been added to show real life temperatures and it's effects on viscosity. Obviously, in real life one would not expect to see such high numbers at low temperatures due to the additives used to minimise this effect.

The chart represents 40C to 115C for greater clarity.


24126

As we can see from these results, Mobil 1 ESP 0W30 looks like a pretty good oil when the engine is at operating temperature.

[Irving]

Figures are based on ASTM 341 extrapolated from known calibration data @ 40C and 100C

[Fredoops]

Figures are based on ASTM 341 extrapolated from known calibration data @ 40C and 100C

How does that relate to pinning is what I'm interested in

What part of the engine is causing this.

[Irving]

How does that relate to pinning is what I'm interested in

What part of the engine is causing this.

PCS or Post Combustion Sound
After the initial ignition of the air/fuel mixture, the sudden combustion drives the piston down. During this event (on the downstroke), the hot gases are further ignited as smaller explosions - ***due to the excess heat trapped in the cylinder head before the gases are vented by the exhaust valves.*** This is the pinging noise that we could hear.

[QUOTE=Irving;3662749]

//Therefore, the oil had a higher viscosity and was harder to pump and flowed less freely, dissipating less heat from the engine's cylinder head and allowing more heat to build up.//

Some say that this is infact a good thing, as you are getting further smaller explosions during the downstroke which they claim may help generate more power.
However, as many of us know, it is not a desirable characteristic in the CU2.

[Irving]

Here it is. the document from Honda.
Another reason I will be filling with GF5 (SN rated) 0W20 at my next fill.

24144

*Please download this document if you wish, as I will have to remove it due to space constraints.

[Irving]

Next to the oil, the filter plays a major role in helping lubricate your engine. The filter as we know, helps keep the oil clean for longer. The filter medium must separate and trap particles and debris carried by the oil as it travels through it.
An oil filter has 3 major components: Filter medium, anti drainback valve and the bypass valve.

In normal operation, the oil is pumped via the filter medium.
If the oil is too thick (high viscosity) or the filter medium is clogged, the oil is pumped via the bypass valve and the engine continues to receive unfiltered oil.
The anti drainback valve keeps the filter primed and allows faster lubrication of the engine when the car is started. In the K24Z engine, the oil filter is positioned vertically upwards and a full store of oil is held in the filter at all times.

I went out and purchased a Honda oil filter and also a generic oil filter. The generic filter from my local auto shop cost less than half price (GBP 5.00) of the Honda filter which cost GBP11.30 inc tax.

Visually, the generic filter (on the right) looks pretty good and well made. It has a good quality O ring seal (which came lubricated) and the anti drainback valve is made of good quality rubber.
Looking inside The Honda filter (on the left) the anti drainback valve seems to be made of a high quality silicone rubber compound and the there is also a difference in the type of bypass valves being used. The larger holes in the Honda filter look capable of passing more oil through them than the generic filter.

Finally, and most importantly, looking closely at the filter medium, the generic brand looks to be made of vertically pleated paper and the Honda filter medium looks to be made of a polyester-glass type material.which has a cross hatch pleated layout, which I think may have a finer filtering/better performance and a greater surface area for the trapment of more debris.

From visual appearance alone, the Honda filter looks to be made of better materials and is likely to outperform the generic brand over a greater oil /filter change interval.
So, it seems that in this case, you get what you pay for.....


2415424155

I will be cutting open my old oil filter soon and will post up more details....

[Irving]

Here are some specs:

Castrol Magnatec 5W40
API SM/CF
ACEA A3/B3,A3/B4
Viscosity at 100C----13.7
Viscosity at 40C -----85.5 !!!!


Castrol Edge 5W40
API SL/CF (SL standard dates back to 2001)
ACEA A3/B3,A3/B4
Viscosity at 100C ----14
Viscosity at 40C -----85 !!!!

These are high viscosity numbers compared to the Mobil 1 data previously listed (especially at cold temperatures).

Consider this:
Driving down the Hume Hwy, the ambient temperature can be less than 10C even during summer. The CU2 coasts effortlessly, in 6th gear and the oil cools due to the low ambient temperature and the low load. Then we hit a hill or slight incline and the PCS is heard as the engine rpms are increased as a lower gear is selected (now we are approaching peak torque). Result PCS. Sounds plausible? Most certainly!

Even at ‘normal operating’ oil temperature I have observed persistent PCS with the Honda dealership oil. So, what oil were they using?
Obviously, it wasn't the correct oil....

[Irving]

So, here it is.... Amsoil 0W20 GF5 SN rated oil, which I put into my engine today.

Why did I choose Amsoil 0W20?

* 100% Synthetic. There is no word play, and any attempt to pass off hydrocracked mineral oil as synthetic oil.
* Extended drain interval of 25,000 miles or one year.
* GF5 (group 5), SN rated oil.
* Only GBP 10.00 more per oil fill than Mobil 1 0W30 ESP.

2422224221

I will be testing this oil fully over the next few days and will post my findings.

Also, I will be cutting open the old oil filter tomorrow....

[BigBen]

So, here it is.... Amsoil 0W20 GF5 SN rated oil, which I put into my engine today.

Why did I choose Amsoil 0W20?

* 100% Synthetic. There is no word play, and any attempt to pass off hydrocracked mineral oil as synthetic oil.
* Extended drain interval of 25,000 miles or one year.
* GF5 (group 5), SN rated oil.
* Only GBP 10.00 more per oil fill than Mobil 1 0W30 ESP.

2422224221

I will be testing this oil fully over the next few days and will post my findings.

Also, I will be cutting open the old oil filter tomorrow....


You'll love the free reving feel once you use the Amsoil 0w-20. Just makes the car more willing to revs.

[Irving]

You'll love the free reving feel once you use the Amsoil 0w-20. Just makes the car more willing to revs.

I couldn't agree more!

At startup (mild morning 6C) the oil pressure light was out in less than half a second! (most of the wear happens at startup).

Smooth revving, quieter and the engine seems more willing.
You get the feeling that this engine may be a rotary but not quite (having driven a turbo rotary RX7)! Yet, very smooth and easy revving.
The car feels less weighty and picks up (accelerates) more quickly.
There was also a noticeable difference in the fuel bar graph (a couple of bars less).

[Irving]

The oil was changed after 11 months - 8,000kms. There was no sludge, debris, or any particles whatsoever found. The old oil was Mobil 1 0W30 ESP.

The filter was cut open carefully using an angle grinder. No grinder dust was allowed to enter the inside of the filter.

2423024231

The filter core was allowed to drain naturally, and inspected closely.
We can see the cross hatch - saw tooth pleated polyester/glass filter media. This pattern seems to have more surface area for the filtration of the oil compared to a vertically pleated media.

242322423324234

Close visual inspection showed no visible particles, debris, metal shavings or sludge.
I ran a magnetic screwdriver along the crease of the pleats and found no metal filings or any other debris.

So, it seems that the oil has done a good job in protecting the engine.

[Mambo]

Hey Guys, I was actually researching about mod to my euro and stumbled upon this thread. some interesting read on the pinging.
I own a built 2008, but 2009 complaint Luxury auto Euro bought new on June 2009. I never had any pinging issue and its done 70,000kms so far. always used 95octane and above fuel from all/any company. serviced at honda when due, still running on original Michelins (noisy tyres :-0). besides servicing the car, never needed any fix or etc.. did change the speakers once under warranty. always drove hard and did a few long drives interstate, never ever heard any pinging ever and drives smooth as... and still drives great (need new tyres now).

filled my euro with united 100 octane for a year when I found out about it and the car transformed into a beast, noticed about 20% more power and more mileage. not too sure on the 20%, but the kick i got from 100 octane fuel was real and the take off was super and putting it on S drive and using the paddle shifters was always a joy on 100 octane. Unfortunately United stopped selling 100 Octane a few months ago in Sydney and since then I switched to Caltex 98 Vortex and drive great, not as great as the United's 100 octane but its decent on power n etc.

sorry to side track, thought to input my findings on the fuels used.
anyways.. i have never had any pinging problem and the car is smooth as and quiet as, except for the tyres now which needs a change.
I hope the pinging problem on those affected cars are fixed and sorted. 95~98 octane fuel is not much of a diff in price, so i suggest to fill the euros up with 98 octane for better mileage and power delivery, just my 2 cents worth.

cheers

[Splashalot]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread.

I am looking at buying a CU2 manual Luxury and am wondering if there is a certain model year where the pinging and/or PCS was cured. That is, from the factory rather than the dealer? Am currently looking at MY2011, 12 and 13. I assume these are all affected?


Some very interesting reading here re. 0-20 GF5 oil. Thanks to all contributors for the info.

[Fredoops]

my09 my10 had the issue, it was fixed.

[Splashalot]

Many thanks. Sounds like I can buy a MY11 onwards with confidence.

[Fredoops]

Use a 0w30 oil.

Penrite hpr 0 0w30.

[antony]

I have a 2010 MY11 and have never had an issue,but have always only filled it up with 95 petrol.

[Splashalot]

Thanks for the feedback. Will probably look for a MY12 onwards,unless I find an '11 Lux manual in blue with low kms. Cheers.