splits on EK civic

[locodave]

Where did you guys mount the tweeters? Can't think of a place where it will nicely fit besides the black triangle plastic cap on the doors. But I want them to be flush mounted, so thats out.

What did you guys do?

[mrwillz]

near the door handles towards the front ( if u dont mind cutting ur interior )

[tron07]

dash or A pillar

[DNY*BOY]

on the edge of dash , on the door are good also...

[arverson]

+1 for A-pillars

[danyboi]

the black mirror triangles are easiest, Personally i had them there in my Ek previously
otherwise a pillars defenatly the way to go best sounding

[DvSnGuYeN]

I put mine on the dash... in the corner where them vents are... or you can go one better and put them IN your vents, on the dash... totally hidden... LoL

[omgzilla]

I've got mine on the door frame (traingle bit) where the side mirrors are.

[ABANG]

A pillars is the best place to get good imaging and staging.

[TYP32]

agreed with averson and ABANG, nothing beats tweets (even mids if your game) in A pillars, best for staging and imaging.

Heres a little something i whipped up in my old Corolla SX (sorry for droppin C bomb :p)

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/1379/rollaapillaryv6.th.jpg (http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rollaapillaryv6.jpg)

[danyboi]

oh hell yeah,

that looks awesom

You glass that your self mate

[TYP32]

yea mate, all myself. thing is tho, one reason i will always do my own work is, yea most car audio places can get it lookin like that, but strength wise, u can tow the car off it!, something i always see top end shops still fail to do. Everything i build is rock solid, sound deadened etc, for the best sound also.

[ABANG]

Agree with Type32, 2 thumbs up for you. rigid construction for speaker mounting is very important and a lot of people (including shops) underestimate the importance of it. It will make the freq response a lot smoother compared to one construction with less strength, and hence it is easier to achieve the "correct" sound.

I'll try to post pic of my pylar later on for your reference too

[arverson]

i didnt know a rock-solid A-pillar automatically changes how the tweeters sound...

what is this 'correct' sound?? im just curious

[TYP32]

tweeters not so much mate, small driver isnt goin to cause much resonance to "less than solid" pillars. Mids however are another story with vocals, piano etc as a hard one to get right without vibrating and resonance.

[arverson]

i knew that, but thats not what i meant..

[ABANG]

The frequency responce will be a lot smoother on rigid construction (less peak or deep). You could see this on RTA test with pink noise. It is true that it is not as significant as midbass, but tweeter is a lot more sensitive compared to midbass, so it is still important.

In my opinion, correct sounds determines by on how a system reproduce a sound compared to the real sound in recording room, the closer the better, or it is quite often refered as naturalness of a system.

In relation to the solid tweeter mounting, as there will be less peak or deep on solid construction, hence less EQ-ing is required and I would avoid EQ-ing high freq as much as I could because EQ ing means change in phase.

Hope this makes sense, :)

[arverson]

i knew the point you were trying to make, you were generalising a bit before.. just seeing if you could further explain yourself.

if a driver requires an enclosure then yes rigidness is important. think of it as a sub that can be run free-air, it wont matter if its in a 30mm or a 60mm shelf its still gonna sound the same. same applies to tweeters, a 2mm 'more solid' a-pillar wont affect how it sounds.

end point: enclosure rigidness is important for drivers that need a enclosure for optimum sound (subs, mid-woofers & some mid-range drivers). not so for most tweeters..

sorry to nitpick ya

[ICACHA]

agreed with averson and ABANG, nothing beats tweets (even mids if your game) in A pillars, best for staging and imaging.

Heres a little something i whipped up in my old Corolla SX (sorry for droppin C bomb :p)

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/1379/rollaapillaryv6.th.jpg (http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rollaapillaryv6.jpg)

i bet i can beat you with your theory about mids in a-pillars, but i wont tell you why they dont work :)

[ABANG]

Yep you are right, what I meant before wasnt on the thickness of the construction, but more to the solidness (shelf to body or pylar to body). The 30mm mdf will sound better if it is mounted strong to the body compared to 60mm mdf that is mounted loose to the body.

Please correct me if I'm wrong



i knew the point you were trying to make, you were generalising a bit before.. just seeing if you could further explain yourself.

if a driver requires an enclosure then yes rigidness is important. think of it as a sub that can be run free-air, it wont matter if its in a 30mm or a 60mm shelf its still gonna sound the same. same applies to tweeters, a 2mm 'more solid' a-pillar wont affect how it sounds.

end point: enclosure rigidness is important for drivers that need a enclosure for optimum sound (subs, mid-woofers & some mid-range drivers). not so for most tweeters..

sorry to nitpick ya

[tron07]

i bet i can beat you with your theory about mids in a-pillars, but i wont tell you why they dont work :)

you can get away with 3" but anything bigger, its too in-your-face sounding and too many point source makes hard to get good imaging.

[TYP32]

i bet i can beat you with your theory about mids in a-pillars, but i wont tell you why they dont work :)

Im interested in your input ICACHA. I by no means know all there is to know about car audio so im happy to absorb informative material. I have simply gained my experience working with guys in the industry even tho i myself am not. In the past i would get my little kicks out of cleaning up in comps against those that would hand over bucketloads of cash to companies/installers.
There really is no "perfect/ideal" position for both tweet and mid, id like to know where you would choose to place them. I have simply based my choice on staging height and imaging, you cannot deny no matter how good the axis is on your mids (in doors or kick panels) you will still get a "rainbow" effect if you were to run a purpose built imaging track, sweeping left to right, you would get a good height in the centre if you've got good axis on your speakers, but you can always tell when the furtherest extremeties play, they are where they are, the stage height dips. Stage narrows and is shallower up on the pillars indeed, but height and imaging is spot on, i simply choose a personal lesser of the two evils.

[jayesse]

Kick panels are the best for imaging/staging. Keeps the tweet close to the mid and offers a closer equal distance from the driving poition (as that's where you spend most of your time)

I'd never stick tweets high up on the a-pillar and dash.

[tron07]

if everything mounted at the kicks, you probably get low staging, around the air cond vents area

[danyboi]

I woul djust go for the simplistic approach, move them around, see where you think they sound best. It is all in the EAR Of the Beholder, and is a very subjective topic.

try it out, with different temp mountings, and see what you think sounds best, then mount them there mate. Because although others may say imaging / staging from various places is better, does not mean you think it sounds the best

[ICACHA]

Kick panels are the best for imaging/staging. Keeps the tweet close to the mid and offers a closer equal distance from the driving poition (as that's where you spend most of your time)

I'd never stick tweets high up on the a-pillar and dash.

Bingo, we have a winner... And yes you can stick tweets up high just not the mid...

[ICACHA]

if everything mounted at the kicks, you probably get low staging, around the air cond vents area

Mate, your not doing it right!!! I can get you to jump in a car using an OEM tape deck with custom kicks that will blow your mind how high the stage is and how perfect the image is...

[ICACHA]

I woul djust go for the simplistic approach, move them around, see where you think they sound best. It is all in the EAR Of the Beholder, and is a very subjective topic.

You think stage and image is a subjective topic? Sit in front of 2 speakers at equal distance apart and write your version of a subjective topic on it as thats what the perfect stage and image should be like in a car 'if' the installer/bunnings knows what they are doing...

[tron07]

Mate, your not doing it right!!! I can get you to jump in a car using an OEM tape deck with custom kicks that will blow your mind how high the stage is and how perfect the image is...


I have heard lot of competation car... but havent heard any system with tweets in kick with high stage yet....

Wating for someone to convince me.... :p

[ABANG]

:pI beleive it is possible to get good staging and imaging from custom kicks as ICACHA said, but you have to get right angling, positioning, and also right drivers too. I am pretty sure Garry Biggs from JBL has his tweets in kick and yet he won World IASCA SQ final for 7 years (6 consecutives). I've never heard his car but when you win World SQ final more than twice, I'm sure his staging and imaging is perfect.:p

[ICACHA]

exactly ^^^

anyone ever remember richard clarks buick grand national?
anyone know how many speakers he had in the car and where they were placed and why no one could touch him until he retired the car?

its so simple it aint funny to try and educate people who have no concept of "HOW" to get something done right the first time..

i havent done anything as i personally havent had time, everytime i start something such as my car now i get pulled away and have to do paid work on another customers car...

reason why most cars in AU suck and why people keep talking the same sh!t on audio forums is they...

1. dont buy the right car the first time for audio, they buy it for looks and chicks

2. arent willing to modify the car in anyway to suit the audio gear (a-pillar installs dont work nor do they count as a mod)

[trism]

I have heard lot of competation car... but havent heard any system with tweets in kick with high stage yet....

Wating for someone to convince me.... :p

ive heard a car with midbasses in stock location in doors with minimal angling, and the tweeters and midranges in teh kicks angled up. the stage eight was above the dash.

teh car in question was an S15, and was running Focal Beryllium series speakers, and focal amps, off a HXD2 headunit

ICAHCA would know the car im talking about

but its all about the install

you cant spend 4grand on speakers and expect them to sound good thrown in without any thought

[ICACHA]

Matt 'No Comment', never heard it with the kick setup. Have heard it with the speakers in its current A-pillar setup and you will still get another 'No Comment' from me...

Think about a home stereo system. How are the speakers positioned and where do you sit? Ideally both speakers will be an equal distance from you and your listening position will be directly in the middle. This is the ideal listening position as it places you directly in the middle of the speakers which is necessary for a proper soundstage.

Ideal listening position for a home stereo system; Think about your listening position in a vehicle. If you're the driver then you'll be sitting closer to one side of the vehicle while your passenger is sitting closer to the other side of the vehicle. Now put a pair of speakers in the doors and notice the distance you are to one speaker as compared to the distance to the other speaker.

Listening position with door mounted speakers; You'll notice that the distance to the closest speaker (driver side) is much less than the distance to the far speaker (passenger side). This will cause the speaker closest to you to be louder in volume and have a shorter arrival time. Both of these factors will cause the soundstage to be thrown off. This is made worse by A-pillar locations as in the majority of cars the A-pillar locations are closer than the door locations.

Now put a pair of speakers in the kick-panels and notice how the distances, drivers side and passenger side, while still not equal, are closer to being equal than the door or A-pillar speakers.

Listening position with kick-panel mounted speakers; This will bring the soundstage together much better than door mounted locations and is a major reason why kick-panel speakers are used so often in car audio competitions. But what about having the speakers at your feet? Won't it sound like the band is playing at your ankles? Not if the system is set up properly! And some vehicles are better than others.

[ICACHA]

BTW, this is how many of you on forums are like when it comes to car audio... Sorry to say, but you have no originallity... Google Lemmings...

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/star4ucker/tool.jpg

[ABANG]

ICACHA, you are right, but as you said it depends on the cars too. In my Euro, if I moved my seat fully back, I still have equal distance from my ear to my tweets and to mids on the door. But to get this equal distance, I had to make a new dome (standard dome is too high and will block the tweeter).

My conclusion: Some car will work well with tweetes on kick panel, some will work on A pylar. However, no matter where you put the tweeters are, there are other factors that effect the position such angling, driver, and car interior too.

I have seen some pics of the buick you mentioned. He had tweets in kicks, he made port behind the dash so the sound will come to the port through to the dash. If Im not mistaken, he also put the sub at the front, and he had to take the engine off the car before he could put the sub in. Lots of money and effort involved here. So at the end of the day its up to the user how far he/she wants to go/achieve.

cheers

[trism]

no comment on a pillars meaning you didnt like it?


although i must comment on Antonys ute beofre finals last year, with the sinfoni gear


i loved that setup. tweets in teh a pillars...

*drool*

[jayesse]

Not always the case...don't be fooled by the fact that you can't see them (well not in my Jazz anyway). With all the different mounts you usually get you can adjust the angle of the tweeter to suit your needs

The idea is to keep the tweets as close to the mid as possible.

But I guess different people have different tastes so why not just trial a few different locations first by using double sided tape and see what smakes you happy...afterall it's whomever owns the car that has to put up with it every day!

[trism]

no, its not about keeping the tweet as close to the mid as possible imo

its about keeping the distances from each compomnent to your ear as similar as possible

for example, if in your car, the mid in teh door is 50cm away,. the tweeter int eh kick may be 65cm away

however, if you have it up on teh a pillar it might be right on 50cm away as well.

so they are the same distance which means the sound has the same distace to travel. this may effect the sound, but there shouldbnt be too much of a frequency overlap anyways to screw up with wave lengths etc

[ICACHA]

I have seen some pics of the buick you mentioned. He had tweets in kicks, he made port behind the dash so the sound will come to the port through to the dash. If Im not mistaken, he also put the sub at the front, and he had to take the engine off the car before he could put the sub in. Lots of money and effort involved here. So at the end of the day its up to the user how far he/she wants to go/achieve.

cheers

Some light reading on the Buick...

"In 1988, another superstar car was introduced to the car audio world. The 1986 Buick Grand National (Installations April '89 and August '92) built by SpeakerWorks in Orange, California (and later sold to Richard Clark), is believed to be the only vehicle ever to retire undefeated from the pro division of the national sound-off circuit.

The bad black Buick won the Alpine Car Audio Nationals II Pro Unlimited (751 watts and up) division in '88, and IASCA's Pro unlimited title in '89, '90, and '91 before being retired by Clark. "It's the winningest car of all time in the Pro category," said Clark, who keeps the car in storage in North Carolina. "It was totally undefeated, and its design had a big impact on the way things are done today."

The SpeakerWorks Buick was "the winningest car" in IASCA's Pro division, according to Richard Clark. The system featured two 15-inch subwoofers behind the rear seat, and a 12-inch sub in each rear side panel. According to Eric Holdaway, whose family owns SpeakerWorks and designed the original system, the speaker locations in the Buick were a pioneering concept.

"People thought we were nuts to put speakers in the kick panels," said Holdaway. "Our goal was to maximize the pathlengths for better imaging and staging. It was a groundbreaking approach that most top installers are following today." The all-stealth Buick, equipped with only six speakers and nearly 5,000 watts of power, won four national titles and consistently hit 140+ dB. "I won $60,000 in prize money in one year with that car," said Clark."

[ICACHA]

no comment on a pillars meaning you didnt like it?


although i must comment on Antonys ute beofre finals last year, with the sinfoni gear


i loved that setup. tweets in teh a pillars...

*drool*

Matt, tweets in the a-pillars are ok, mids are not as they are the speakers you hear the most information from...

Antony's was a 2way setup not 3way and it only had 1/2 hr tuning before it got equal 2nd at finals. Not bad for a slap together system? Wait for the next one, it should blow people away :)

[ICACHA]

The idea is to keep the tweets as close to the mid as possible.

not true...


But I guess different people have different tastes so why not just trial a few different locations first by using double sided tape and see what smakes you happy...afterall it's whomever owns the car that has to put up with it every day!

people hear differently, but the concept of sitting between 2 speakers is the same, if you think otherwise please tell us whats a better way for the illusion of stage and image?

there is nothing complicated about the concept of trying to get the speakers at close to equal distance away from you to minimise pathlength difference. when mids and tweets are in the a-pillar they dont work, the right side will always be closer than the left side and vis versa. whats so hard about understanding that your stage/image is screwed and no matter how much T/A you use cant correct pathlengths?

if you think its rocket science, maybe you should work for NASA...

[ICACHA]

no, its not about keeping the tweet as close to the mid as possible imo

its about keeping the distances from each compomnent to your ear as similar as possible

for example, if in your car, the mid in teh door is 50cm away,. the tweeter int eh kick may be 65cm away

however, if you have it up on teh a pillar it might be right on 50cm away as well.

so they are the same distance which means the sound has the same distace to travel. this may effect the sound, but there shouldbnt be too much of a frequency overlap anyways to screw up with wave lengths etc

Matt, its called arrival time of the different speakers, having them originate from the same source minimises the arrival time to your ears and creates the illusion of a stage you will be happy to listen to with only slight tuning adjustments.

for this you need a reference to know what it should sound like in the car, thats why sitting between 2 speakers at home will give you the best result in knowing what to aim for in the car. without this reference you are fooled in thinking that your car stages and images... not true as i told Rick this last year. the thing you guys do when competing in comps is get the new comp disc year after year and throw it straight in your car and think it sounds the best, but you havent heard it between 2 simple speakers to know what it really should sound like. thats where you all go wrong and fail at comps...

if you remember me telling Pete (muzzy) on Nathan's forum, you all talk the same shit year after year because you buy a car that you like then try and make it sound good without having the balls to cut and modify it to suit audio purposes. buying the right car will get you much closer to having a system that stages and images with less customising, but you cant rule out customising all together, if you wanted to return a car back to OEM for re-sale later then dont put a system in there and talk shit day after day about trial and error on what your going to do to fix the vehicles flaws (generalising here)...

[trism]

i undestand it all completely :thumbsup:

with my old car (SX rolla) i cut the shit out of the door metal and door trims to fir the mids next to the midbass'

tweets down in teh kick panel.

i do completely agree with you about swapping the discs every 2 years.

i remember listening to the Chesky CD at home on my $300 total dick smith speakers/amp/sub setup, and it sounded better than pretty much every car, because they were perfectly distances, same path length to ears....