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View Full Version : what are the best mods(engine) for the money ??



sui
04-11-2003, 08:42 PM
whats worth modding on a civic vtir ?? enginewise? extractors ? cams ? exhaust ..

Weq
04-11-2003, 08:55 PM
Hands down, turbo.
Money:HP ratio is off he scale.

ALLMTR
04-11-2003, 08:58 PM
Extractors and exhaust give best improvement for the money

one more chance
04-11-2003, 09:08 PM
Extractors and exhaust give best improvement for the money

agreed. breathing mod always go along way, along with a thorough work of ignition timing and fuel mixtures (ecu)

Setanta
04-11-2003, 10:18 PM
I'd go one step further and suggest header, high-flow cat, exhaust and high-flow muffler.

Then timing and A/F ratio etc

SiR
04-11-2003, 10:33 PM
Aren't headers and extractors the same thing? :roll:

Setanta
04-11-2003, 10:41 PM
Yep - except it's header singular. Headers are more than one :P

My point is that you need to add in the cat and muffler to the equation :)

Weq
04-11-2003, 11:17 PM
How many HP will this gain on a b16a ?

SiR
04-11-2003, 11:23 PM
Quick #: What are sparkplugs and what do they do?

ALLMTR
04-11-2003, 11:38 PM
[quote="Setanta"]Yep - except it's header singular. Headers are more than one :P

quote]

I disagree. A set of headers is like a pair of pants. I put pants on. I fit headers/extractors

dc2r
05-11-2003, 12:58 AM
[quote=Setanta]Yep - except it's header singular. Headers are more than one :P

quote]

I disagree. A set of headers is like a pair of pants. I put pants on. I fit headers/extractors

I disagree... i put panties on... hehe... jk
I think the whole exhaust from engine is a good start.

Setanta
05-11-2003, 06:51 AM
Yep - except it's header singular. Headers are more than one :P



I disagree. A set of headers is like a pair of pants. I put pants on. I fit headers/extractors

I'm an English teacher - you really want to do this? :P

Using the pants example which is both singular and plural is like using sheep singular and plural (shoutout to all the kiwis out there :P ). You cant make an analogy between different word usage with the English language because of its structure.

joneblaze
05-11-2003, 09:07 AM
i agree with Pete, but can't we just all be friends and agree headers is the common term? :P or least from what ive heard.... :oops:

BLKCRX
05-11-2003, 09:24 AM
A good cold air setup, plus a nice exhaust setup, what people don't realise is the stock exhaust manifold ( extractors / headers) flows very nicely !!! and most cheap aftermarket exhaust manifolds flow WORST than aftermarket. The same goes for Throttle body’s people this wow massive gain, proven tests has shown there’s more benefit in changing your intake manifold than your throttle body.

Spend money a ECU and tune more power into your car by advancing your ignition and perfect air fuel ratio, at the same time increasing your fuel efficiency and driveability.

Other than that, your going to need to spend big money to make much more power from NA, or go Turbo.

Regards James

fueltank
05-11-2003, 11:21 AM
A good cold air setup, plus a nice exhaust setup, what people don't realise is the stock exhaust manifold ( extractors / headers) flows very nicely !!! and most cheap aftermarket exhaust manifolds flow WORST than aftermarket. The same goes for Throttle body’s people this wow massive gain, proven tests has shown there’s more benefit in changing your intake manifold than your throttle body.

Spend money a ECU and tune more power into your car by advancing your ignition and perfect air fuel ratio, at the same time increasing your fuel efficiency and driveability.

Other than that, your going to need to spend big money to make much more power from NA, or go Turbo.

Regards James

I agree here, best bang for buck would be basic exhaust + intake with a ECU tuned to suit it.

joneblaze
05-11-2003, 11:40 AM
im not familiar with this whole ECU thing..... can someone fill me in?
its a new onboard computer chip that allows u to much around with the air/fuel ratios and stuff like that? is it a chip or an onboard unit?
also, does this "ECU + other mods = best bang for buck" only apply to certain cars? or would it benefit even a 1.8L non VTEC DOHC like my GSi?

bennjamin
05-11-2003, 12:42 PM
Jon...tis ben the Ute kid here :P

Ok , basically...teh ECU is the computer managent system of any EFI car...its a small , sandwhich sized box filled with diodes , circutry etc - its the brains of the car. You would find it under the passenger side seat or at teh front lefthand side of the passenger's feet - What the guys are talking about is using AFTERMARKET ecus and/or piggy back systems - which basically take out the ECU of ur car, and replace with something newer, more efficient or run a stock ECU with a piggy back computer hooked up as well.

This is turn can enable you to play around with fuel ratio settings etc etc( ofcourse with the aid of ECU software on a handy laptop) to do with the engine , and hopefully gain more HP thru altering factory specifications.

Put it this way - my mate Yonas wit his blue EG5, same engine as ur except 200cc less capacity...BUT with a aftermarket ECU (piggy back) and extra breathing mods ( CAI , exctractors, etc) it has been tuned to rev till 8200rpm...and im sure he has altered the peak power to be produced higher in the rev range -

Result ? A dam quick NON-vtec ...beats VTiRs , and can beat a stock itr off the mark... Well , dam quick anyways ! ( Yonas...please feel free to alter or correct my comments :D - ur car is dam quick anyway!)

Jon , im sure u can pick up a aftermarket ecu and just strap it on ...and feel a difference - but im hoping WIN gets one so he can finally beat you :P

joneblaze
05-11-2003, 12:49 PM
thanks for that ben. really concise and simple explaination. perfect for newbie like me :)
is Yona's car and mods a "regular" sorta modded car or something which is quite unique? AKA is this sorta thing done alot. Cos i havent heard the ECU mentioned alot when i've asked bout performance etc.
So would this mean if i threw a full exhaust/headers/CAI and ECU into my GSi i'd be looking at high gains too?
how much would this all cost me? Where would u get an ECU fitted/installed and tuned etc? someone pls tell me more... im interested :)

hehe... yeah Win get an ECU. i wanna check these things out. who else here's got one and can gimme more info? btw, i didnt win against Win. i think it was a void run :roll: (cant wait to go again.. lol)

bennjamin
05-11-2003, 01:02 PM
thanks for that ben. really concise and simple explaination. perfect for newbie like me :)
is Yona's car and mods a "regular" sorta modded car something which is quite unique? So would this mean if i threw a full exhaust/headers/CAI and ECU into my GSi i'd be looking at high gains too?
how much would this all cost me? Where would u get an ECU fitted/installed and tuned etc? someone pls tell me more... im interested :)

Tis no problem brother ! Well , I cant comment on Yonas's car too deeply , as i dont really know what goes on inside! But , i can tell you that the external mods that he does have , you should most likely get !

CAI +high flow filter ( BTW use your stock airbox, just take off the resonator etc, and just replace the stock filter inside with a SPOON or K+N item) , good 4-2-1 headers( ceramic coated) good hi flow cat and cat back system , good muffler . . . with these bits you will notice not a huge gain, but alot more induction noise and more revability :) - basically freeing up teh effeciency of the engine.

With the ECU , Yonas uses a piggy back item , with an ECU . This is a good bet - but for your car to truely FLY above stock all your money has to go into TUNING. Yonas's car is very well tuned - alot of time and effort has been spent on his car i believe - and so it can really rev out and fly :)
You cannot tune it yourself - as noobies like us need a pro to muck around with A/F ratios etc - totally transforming the car :)

If all this can be done on a 1.6...surely for your car it can only get better 8)

Research "after market ECU's" in google , or " b18b after market ecu"

8)

AP1 F20c
05-11-2003, 01:07 PM
Howabout investing in an advanced driving course before heading out to sticking more power into an already potent block? :arrow:

bennjamin
05-11-2003, 01:10 PM
Howabout investing in an advanced driving course before heading out to sticking more power into an already potent block? :arrow:

The man has a point...i think MOST of us here should partake into a advance driving course out at Oran park etc...

No amount of OP runs makes you teh bombest driver :P

I did it 3 years ago , two 1 day courses for around $400 - really good fun ! And worth it too !

Ben

joneblaze
05-11-2003, 01:24 PM
Howabout investing in an advanced driving course before heading out to sticking more power into an already potent block? :arrow:

haha...for sure noel. i wasn't thinking about doing these mods anytime soon. just interested in how it all works and possibilities for the GSi in the future...
learning to drive would be goood.......
i should invest in the optional "Reversing" module too.... :P


pssst..... thats ONE person who says my B18b is "potent"...... :twisted:

BLKCRX
05-11-2003, 01:36 PM
A ECU is the brain behind any modern fuel injected engine basically a ecu controls how much fuel goes into the engine and how much ignition spark (in a general way) anyway manufactory’s tune every stock car to a point where it’s
1. Pollution friendly
2. Drive ability to produce a smooth none aggressive car (Honda DE tuned the K engine on DC5 to reduce torque street instead of upgrading suspension ! at 2500rpm – 5000pm)
3. Within very safe limits where its almost impossible for engine damage
4. plus many werid reasons..

Anywya as soon as you change one thing on your car ( engine wise ) your engine will not take advantage of it fully unless the ECU knows about the modifications and the car is tuned. Yes you can get some benefits by bolting on things but unless you provide the correct air fuel and ignition your not getting the true benefits. There are many ways to so call tune any ECU the most common but by far the worst option would be using crude devices such as AFC / e manage / Link / uni chip / micotech that intercept signals from the engine and give the engine false readings. (ranging from price from $500 - $2000

These are bad for a few reasons, one most ecu’s auto learn so after a while these piggyback devices become invisible to the stock ECU, something many tuners or sellers forget to tell you, not many people know about open loop / closed loop modes.

Certain brands have more fine tune ability than others, some come with more EYE candy options (RICE) than others, but unless you stop the stock ECU from learning your wasting your money.

On a side not a chip upgrade not tuned for your car are a utter waste of money, unless a device can be tuned specifically from your car in real time on a dyno its not worth its weight in gold !!

The other way is to either fully replace your stock ecu with a aftermarket ecu or upgrade it to be fully tuneable, major names in this upgrade are Motec, Hondata, Autronic. These ECU replacements have much greater tune ability and can support more modifications these and range in prices from $700 – $5000 + These are the ultimate option.

Regards James

AP1 F20c
05-11-2003, 03:22 PM
Good descriptive, mods should make it a sticky ... :arrow:

joneblaze
05-11-2003, 05:27 PM
i see..... (i think.. lol). thanks for that info james.
so in reference to these "cheapie" ecu alternatives, like the e-manage, piggybacks and etc etc, do they give NO gain/assistance, or jus not AS MUCH as going all the way with a "proper" ecu?

one more chance
05-11-2003, 05:58 PM
BLKCRX

Great reply...very detailed.
Mate, question, s100 over s200? I'm not looking at running any NOS or FI but like the extra features of the s200....should I stick with the 200 or is the 100 ample enough?

Also, I've got a VAFC lying around, want to incorporate the blue screen into my cabin, would it be possible to run hondata along with the vafc in anyway at all?

SPEEDCORE
05-11-2003, 06:50 PM
Howabout investing in an advanced driving course before heading out to sticking more power into an already potent block? :arrow:

I tend to disagree with this... it has been proven that so called "advanced driver training" gives a false sense of above average skill compared to other road users and thus leads to these people attempting to "show" their skill dangerously on the roads.

Personally, I only race at track days and you always get the people who have been to these courses bragging about it and have no idea how to drive quickly... and more importantly safely on track days...... and sadly they carry it onto the street also.

BLKCRX
05-11-2003, 11:03 PM
Don’t get me wrong, piggy back devices do work, and are still feasible options, and 100’s are sold each week around the world, tuners love them also because people need to get re tune’s all the time, or have there stock ecu reset every week so it resets the autolearn, so yeah they do work / do there jobs to a degree. Some work better than others, some devices only allow you to trim or add fuel, some only work full thottle forgetting about part throttle driveability ( where most driving is done ) some don’t support ignition, or control vtec correctly, some have limits such as 11psi max boost, so have very very bad resolution with not enough points to safely tune a engine, some have rpm limits and the list goes on and on, then ask your self how much is your car worth to you, and is it worth skimping on the most important thing in your car ? engine management . Do some research especially over sea’s research in the USA if your serious and you should come up with the correct answer, although sadly most Honda owners seem to skimp corners and use this half arsed devices.

As for as the other option making more power, that’s something ill never promise a end user, max power = perfect air fuel ration and ignition timing if you have this you have max power simple. Some ECU’s allow you to get to this point much more easily when tuning, some don’t have the fine tuning required to get 100% out of your engine.

Oh one more thing don’t fall into the trap of, OH I WANT TO TUNE MY OWN CAR FINE TUNE IT… blah blah like sooo many people think / say that. Simple fact unless you have had over 100 hours on a dyno, know all the maths / science regarding tuning a engine understand fuel curves / ignition tables as well as owning your own dyno and wide band AF don’t do it !!!. So many people are like oh ill tune it my self … leave it to experts and once its tuned don’t touch it. !!!

one more chance
With regards to the s100 and s200, I talk every customer into spending the little bit more and getting the s200 as you neve know what extra options you might like down the track. There is NO tune ability difference however between the s100 and s200 the s100 just doesn’t support data logging / full throttle shift / g sensor etc…
The s100 sells for $775(rrp) installed and the s200 is $820(rrp) installed, although currently there’s 10% discount around Australia due to our birthday sale.

Get a base s200 unit and upgrade to features when required…. Once you drive a car with the full throttle shift / launch rpm you will wonder how you went without it.

As for the afc you could leave that half plugged up, so it just reads rpm but yeah hmm pointless I would sell it, buy your self a plam hand held computer and use that with Hondata if you go down that track.

Hope that helps guys !!

Regards James

dcii_sir
06-11-2003, 03:37 AM
I actually think cams is a really really good way to gain power. Get your hands on a set of type R cams and you can just bolt it straight on. Its got a more aggresive profile compared to the stock b16a ones. But of coz, you'll need exhaust and extractors done before hand to give a better flow.. As for ecu, arent they really expensive ??? I know the whole unit is expensive. Piggy back ones like VAFC helps as well but personally, I rather go with cams because by the time u get it installed and tuned, it would probaly cost about the same.

BLKCRX
06-11-2003, 07:46 AM
The owner can’t put type R cams into a b18b engine it’s a none vtec engine.
As for putting type R cams into a b16 and not changing anything else, while in theory it might sound good, sadly it is’t.

Again your still running the stock b16 ecu, the stock ecu is supplying the wrong ignition timing and fuelling for the type r cam’s. The actual difference b/w tyre r cam’s and b16 cams is in the high of the vtec lobe and mainly affects over 7800rpm making power on a 1.8L when tuned by a type r ecu to 8200 rpm.
How can you A make a stock b16 ecu rev to 8200 when it rev limit is 7800, and B how can you provide the correct fuel and ignition to the DC2 cams to make more power from them ?? you can’t ! u need to tune everything you can’t just slap parts on, tuning is the key.

Regards James

SPEEDCORE
06-11-2003, 01:11 PM
My G/F's B16A revs to 8200!

It is the fuel cut....... but it revs to it :wink:

Taz
06-11-2003, 01:46 PM
My B16A revs to 8500 easily with standard ECU. Gets to about 65km in first. I think cause mine is the imported version and comes standard with 10 extra Hp than standard (170 hp)

one more chance
06-11-2003, 04:29 PM
James thanx for the reply. Very detailed though I think I will stick with the s100 as it has all the tuning capabilities I will ever need. But how is the drivabiloty with full-throttle shifting? Good suggestion about selling the VAFC for a hand held item...hmmmmm..

fueltank
06-11-2003, 04:32 PM
So many different rev limiters, I wonder how accurate the tacho is on everyone's cars. :?:

BLKCRX
06-11-2003, 04:45 PM
hmm broken tacho's and or people just can't read them correctly, its very hard unless your on a dyno, some ecu's thow do have different redline fuel cuts most around 7800, people that have afc-s hooked up, these can also miss read the ecu !! so yeah.

Either way hmm type r Cams in a b16 hmm no point unless you can tune the car extend the rpm give it more fuel more ignition timing up top, then your talking more power than just slapping in cams ! Tuning is the key to anything !!

As for the s100.. get the base s200 ;) not the s100 resale of the s200 is so much easier also !! its worth the extra little bit.

Regards James

ek004
06-11-2003, 10:36 PM
cool threads guys...

interceptor type ECU's do not raise ur revlimit, they are confined to the operating conditions of ur factory ecu... so if fuel cutoff is 8200 on your ecu... then with a unichip, emanage or whichever interceptor tyep ecu ur tuning scope stops there...

on b16a2 i beileve redlins is 7800 but fuel cur off is 8200, dont know im very sure most tachos are inaccurate around that area...

well thats my 2 cents...

im up this whole ECU part of mods.. damn it is expensive...

but i think the most import think ive read and agreed with from here is

TUNING is the key

thanks for listening to my 2 cents (if anyone cares that is )

EKIV
26-11-2003, 07:34 PM
a cheap and good way to improve the performance ..
take out the cat ........
hehehee ..

TODA AU
08-12-2003, 07:57 PM
Though I may be swimming up-stream here... Here goes anyway...

In my experience the best bang for your bucks performance gains on normally aspirated B-series powered vehicles is to do these three things first...
1) Fit a light weight flywheel & heavy duty clutch...
2) If you don't already have a DC2 type R gearbox... Get one... (Comes with LSD)*
3) Fit a lower final drive...
* If you already have a DC2R box...
Go one better and get a Cross type gear kit for it...

Though the total power output of the engine remains unchanged...
The usable power realised to the wheels is dramatically improved...
Engine braking is also improved... Engine reliability is not compromised.
Though it's not something you can really show your friends, apart from beating them in a drag race or around the circuit...

What's also a bonus using this as a starting point is when you do perform other engine mods later... They work better a hell of a lot better when combined with the above components...
That is... I/H/E, ECU, Cams, high comp etc...

Cheers

Btw: Great thread guys...

EG5
21-12-2003, 10:51 PM
i got rechipped ecu combine with piggyback ECU for a fine tuning ( Dean - ART ) and the rest is bolt on mods.
my car only can rev till 8000rpm only, not bad for a 1.6 twin cam non vtec. with no internal mods. Im pretty much happy with it.

vtecchie
07-01-2004, 10:27 AM
Hands down, turbo.
Money:HP ratio is off he scale.

so is insurance