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Great info Adrian.
Medium budget - So this kind of power can be sustained without having to go for aftermarket rods/pistons?
That is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by wynode
An example of the medium budget kit can be seen here. (Cick on link below)
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1256/article.html
It's one I did quite some time ago, back in 1999~2000 when I was part of "Hypertune"
Cheers
Adrian
very nice writeup indeed.. I assume these can only be used as guidelines I spose.. for D series and H series engines?
nice writeup adrian!
btw i drove passed RUF performance on saturday while going to jap connection!
looks like a nice place!!
correct me if im wrong , but if using a piggy back computer to run a set up is so bad than why does advan use this method in there stage 1 kits (some)
because kits are sold to make money for the maker, not give you the best set up. Ecu's were expensive(there are so many freeware alternatives out now, it actually costs more money for a vaf-c hack or a piggy back than to use one of the many very capable freeware set ups(uberdata, chrome, turboedit, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by superR
couple things I disagree with...
why no block guards? when installed correctly(which the majority of the time they are not), they do a wonderful job of helping to keep headgaskets in good condition. Sure, it may not be a substitute for sleeving the block, but as far as keeping the sleeves from moving at all, they do help.
and second, a lightweight flywheel...
yes, they make more power, but for a street car, they make things a bit more of a pain in the butt for driving. Also, many turbo guys run heavier flywheels(lighter than stock, but certainly not the 7-8 lbs ones that are common among the n/a crowds). With the extra torque from the turbo, you can utilize the extra bit of inertia provided by the heavier flywheel to help get you off the line better.
and my biggest disagreement...
advising people to start with a kit.
kits are put together to make the company selling them money. They VERY rarely offer the quality parts that you should be using. You can always put together a kit of your own using better parts for less money. The only reasonable time to use a kit is when it must be legal(I don't know the details of the aus system regarding these mods, but from what I've read, it seems that like out here, only a small handfull of the kits are actually legal).
Take the greddy kit for example. You buy that, and want to make any decent power, you'll have to swap out the manifold for a non restrictive tubular one. Even if you keep the turbo, you'll still want something other than the tiny 2" downpipe. You still need to get an intercooler and fuel management, etc. So now, you've spent all this money on the kit, only to buy another manifold, another downpipe, and a whole lot of other stuff you didn't get. For any sort of budget, you'll always make more power for less money, with better quality parts by putting things together yourself. This is one case where you can have more power, more reliability, and less money interacting happily.
The only kit out there, that's really worth buying, would be one made by full-race.com You get good quality parts, that are meant to make power. There isn't some sacrafice between quality and mass production techniques, etc. But it's also very expensive. If you want good parts, and are willing to pay someone to put it together for you, that's about the only option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superR
Rather than make any comment for or against another workshop,
I will say that there are many stage 1 kits that are inclusive of some form of piggy back ECU.
Eg: The E-manage system included with the Greddy kit.
The purpose of this thread is to advise the best way to go about turbo charging your Honda within a certain budget group.
Though such systems are not ideal, nor are they advisable to use.
It does not change the fact that they do exist, are available & in use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman
NB: No offence is intended or implied with this reply.
The intent of this post/thread is to outline what is the best path to take to get the best results to a certain level.
Block guards are not recommended for the following reasons.
a) Though it may appear to visually bolster the strength of the top of the block.
Its physical ability to actually do so falls short of outweighing its negative aspects.
b) The prime reason for not using a block guard is poor cooling.
The factory Honda B-Series engine block employs a dry cylinder liner.
Because of this the heat from combustion must first be transferred through the liner material & then into the block material.
These are two dissimilar metals which doesn’t aid this heat transfer.
Honda have tackled this issue & overcome it by introducing what looks like course threads on the sides of the cylinder liners to increase the surface area of heat path & used a high pressure die cast alloy block to increase block density.
Thus, the relatively inefficient thermal conductivity of the 2 dissimilar metals of the cylinder liner and the block has been addressed by Honda.
The fitment of an aftermarket block guard compounds an already existing problem by introducing an additional heat path.
This additional heat path causes heat to remain in the upper cylinder liner.
This is an area already subjected to the most heat.
In reality, though a block guard may visually appear to physically steady the sleeves in position, the resultant reduction in thermal conductivity caused, combined with disturbed coolant flow to the head, compromises the combustion process.
I.e.: The resultant increase in resident heat in the combustion chamber (upper cylinder liner) can lead to detonation.
(The single biggest killer of high output engines.)
It’s interesting the block guard was somehow developed to solve this problem.
In very high output turbocharged applications, moving to a wet cylinder liner or aftermarket cylinder block should be considered & often is the best solution.
Using such aftermarket wet liners solves any perceived rigidity problems & also allows capacity to be increased safely.
c) Installation issues are another woe not even worth going into.
The myriad of problems this can cause is just in a league of its own
I’ll just say shonky workmanship is shonky workmanship.
NB: Head gasket issues are covered through the budget groups & further addressed as the budget increases.
A stopper type gasket solves the head gasket issue nicely.
When the power level warrants it, ARP studs are then employed.
At the high budget - high power output point, as previously stated the use of alternative cylinder liners should be considered.
Regarding the lightened flywheel,
The purpose of this post/thread is objective advice on what works.
Lightweight flywheels do work & do offer good performance gains for dollar spent.
Point of note - There are no aftermarket flywheels available for the B-series engine that outweigh the factory item.
Regarding advising people to start with a kit...
I think we’re saying the same thing here, just from different angles.
Please re-read the first post, it relates to end goals & total budgets.
Of course its good value for someone to use a kit if that's all they ever want.
My recommendation for using a kit stops at med-low budget...
After that, the recommendation moves to using only the manifold from a kit...
Sourcing all other parts individually...
To the power levels given, the cast manifolds are up to the job.
Further they offer very good reliability / long life. (Resistance to cracking etc)
At the high end budget, the recommendation is that everything is custom & nothing is from any kit...
The whole idea behind this post was to stop young guys wasting money.
That is, to start with an end goal in mind & work backward to achieve it.
Cheers
Adrian
excellent post, and very well said!
I still disagree on the kit part...
isn't part of having a low budget about getting the most for the amount of money you're spending? you'll always spend more money and get less with a kit. Infact, I think that it goes the other way around. For higher budget jobs, there are kits that could be effectively used(i.e. full-race), but for a low budget set up, you're just wasting money by buying a kit. If someone can't put together a kit to do the job, they probably shouldn't be turboing there car anyway.
low budget= no kit because it's cheaper to not get one
high budget= no kit because kits don't offer what is needed for the set up your after
As for just using the manifold from a kit, unless you're getting a really good deal, they tend to cost as much or more as a new, log manifold, which has been proven (assuming proper construction) to flow better and make more power. These days, there are so many options for manifolds out there, at such good prices, why waste the money on a used, more restrictive manifold?
sorry i ment to sat AVO ... my bad
Great write up Adrian..
Sorry to go off topic, but i was wondering, where did u start your career?? as an apprentice mechanic?
Big :thumbsup: to the write-up, some great info
If someone had alot of money and only wanted a street use kit, would they be able to use the high budget kit? or is something like that recomended for off-street use only??
There must be alot of downsides to that kit if its for street.. you would be taking years off your engine life wouldnt u?...