The B20VTEC discussion thread

http://www.jhpusa.com/store/pc/catal...rdamper6_d.jpg

ATI Super Damper standard harmonic balancers are specifically designed for high-rpm engines. Their proven elastomer is designed and tuned to eliminate harmful crankshaft harmonics that cause parasitic horsepower loss. They are actually two dampers in one--a 4 in. diameter inner damper and a 6 3/8 in., 7 in., or 8 in. diameter outer damper in two shells that bolt to the crank hub. These dampers are engineered to all but eliminate worn parts and timing problems. They're tunable in the field, rebuildable, and extremely efficient at all rpm.

do we really need it?

It's good insurance.

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Originally Posted by Lerlo

Hey cook, whats this damper your talking about?

Also, for a b20/b16, one would use a b18c timing belt right?
Cant seem to get mine to tension up well and no i did not mill my head or block..
22T Water Pump too....

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my head is milled/block decked and the B18C belt works fine... are you doing it as per the factory manual?

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

my head is milled/block decked and the B18C belt works fine... are you doing it as per the factory manual?

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Yup, following Helms... maybe I should try the clothes hanger technique... Also, it may be tight enough, im not sure...

May I ask, is it strange to have a reading of 300psi on all 4 cylinders? I poured oil into the combustion chamber as I heard it would help seal the rings, and cranked the car without plugs for awhile, maybe I poured too much?

300 is high, but static Comp depends a bit on cam timing...

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

300 is high, but static Comp depends a bit on cam timing...

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Im running stock b16a2 cams with stock cam gears so overlap is stock, but compression is 11.5, will there be an issue with detonation?

If you're concerned about detonation run a higher octane, or make your own race fuel. It's not hard, just google it.

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Originally Posted by newpaddy3

If you're concerned about detonation run a higher octane, or make your own race fuel. It's not hard, just google it.

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no - if you are concerned about detonation, then fix the problem properly...

Lerlo - there is no way we can tell from behind our keyboards if there will be a problem with detonation - SOOOOOO many things can cause it... so you need to prevent it by designing your system properly...

lol sorry, I was drunk last night.

tinkerbell is right though.

Are you getting a reading of cel 32 or whatever the knock sensor throws out? Or are you just wondering if you may have a problem with detonation in regards to your build?

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

no - if you are concerned about detonation, then fix the problem properly...

Lerlo - there is no way we can tell from behind our keyboards if there will be a problem with detonation - SOOOOOO many things can cause it... so you need to prevent it by designing your system properly...

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Thanks tinkerbell, I got the car started and its idling fine now. No knocking on the PFC commander, all good for now. :)

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Originally Posted by newpaddy3

lol sorry, I was drunk last night.

tinkerbell is right though.

Are you getting a reading of cel 32 or whatever the knock sensor throws out? Or are you just wondering if you may have a problem with detonation in regards to your build?

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IM just wondering if I may have detonation in regard to my build, yeah. Cos Im using stock cam gears, therefore stock overlap but high compresison pistons....

yes - you will get detonation if your setup is not tuned or poorly designed. it is not simply a matter of overlap vs compression.

who tuned/is tuning your PFC?

what is you 'calculated' compression ratio?

what spark plugs, what fuel system, what ignition system? etc...

all these can play a part in detonation and knock...

I havent actually read most of the recent comments in this thread, so dont flame me if it's a little off topic, but Im just going to add my 2cents worth anyways... one very important point that it seems most people over look is the fact that a certain static compression ratio can have different detonation characteristics depending on the combustion chamber shape and size, as well as the cam timing which will determine the engines dynamic compression

Quick question, Im using a b16a sump and b16a dipstick on the b20 block, will the dip stick reading be accurate?

why don't you use the B20B dipstick?

won't that be correct?

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

why don't you use the B20B dipstick?

won't that be correct?

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He's using a b16 sump which i'm presuming he isnt sure if its the same as b20 or not.

Don't know if this video link will work,

Stroked B22B built by Hi-Power Racing (Ivan and gang) making an insane 200HP.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video....50213713015490

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Originally Posted by lil_foy

He's using a b16 sump which i'm presuming he isnt sure if its the same as b20 or not.

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well, then i guess both of you need to have a bit of a think through the conceptual framework of how a dipstick works?

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

why don't you use the B20B dipstick?

won't that be correct?

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My b20 block did not come with a dipstick, so I cant compare the difference in length.
As for the difference between a b20 and b16 sump, Im pretty sure its the same volume but you can never be too sure.

There is a difference in length between the B18 and B16, so I'm assume that the b20 block would be the length of the B18.

Just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Lerlo

My b20 block did not come with a dipstick, so I cant compare the difference in length.
As for the difference between a b20 and b16 sump, Im pretty sure its the same volume but you can never be too sure.

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the sump volume could be 50 litres and the dipstick would still work the same way...

and since you don't have a b20 one, try your b16 one in a mates b20 or b18 and see what happens?

lerlo - PM box is full...

B22b only making 200hp ? , brb gtg Jdm k20 swap lol

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Originally Posted by GSi_PSi

B22b only making 200hp ? , brb gtg Jdm k20 swap lol

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This.

I admire all the work, but for the $$ it took to build that motor one can dream of the K-swap that could have been done... I think it did a high 12 on the 1/4? Moiz can you confirm?

There was an eg that made 160kw and ran a 11.9 on a stock 84mm bore b20 in comparison, I'll try get my mate who knows the guy to get slips and dyno sheets

one could have done 2 k swaps for what he paid. with oem reliability.

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

lerlo - PM box is full...

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Oh damn, sorry, clearing it now.

A little late, but got my engine tuned about a month ago, this is the dyno sheet.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k285/lerlo/dyno2.jpg

Would like to hear your opinions on the curves.

Also, would like to thank this thread for helping me through my build, especially CHris and Tinkerbell.

Two questions:

- Is it a must to retorque the headstuds after running in? My head gasket is leaking at the exhaust side, but no signs of oil in coolant yet.

- Can I run the oil catch can to the intake pipe like the stock routing for the rocker cover or should i use a pcv?

The Vtec crossover isn't very smooth. What cams u running?

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Originally Posted by Cooker

The Vtec crossover isn't very smooth. What cams u running?

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Stock b16a2 cams.

curves look good man,

no need to re-torque head studs - unless you failed to do it properly in the first place, then it is time for a new HG...

you need to find out where the oil is coming from - dizzy o-ring or the VTEC port on the back... either two places makes the oil run to the front side of the head...

PCV is covered in previous pages of this thread...

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

curves look good man,

no need to re-torque head studs - unless you failed to do it properly in the first place, then it is time for a new HG...

you need to find out where the oil is coming from - dizzy o-ring or the VTEC port on the back... either two places makes the oil run to the front side of the head...

PCV is covered in previous pages of this thread...

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thanks tinkerbell.

Yeah, I checked the area under the dizzy and vtec sol and its definately wetter. Ill change the seals and see how it goes.

Also, I meant, would be be alright to run the oil breather to the intake before the throttle body instead of using a pcv. Could find any info on that..

PCV is already covered, if you don't want to follow that - I cant really help you...

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Originally Posted by Vvvtec

This.

I admire all the work, but for the $$ it took to build that motor one can dream of the K-swap that could have been done... I think it did a high 12 on the 1/4? Moiz can you confirm?

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13.0 but that was his first time

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Originally Posted by GSi_PSi

There was an eg that made 160kw and ran a 11.9 on a stock 84mm bore b20 in comparison, I'll try get my mate who knows the guy to get slips and dyno sheets

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What tyres was he running bro

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Originally Posted by 89lude

one could have done 2 k swaps for what he paid. with oem reliability.

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True that

mt full drag radials, might be going down with him and a couple of boys in the comming weeks to wsid, just have to finish off my car

Hey guys,

I gotta B20B8/B16 build and theres an issue with the vtec..

its not cracking nor is there any grunt..

if you guys have any experience with these setups please let me know...

Cheers,

yeah mate, I got lots of experience with these setups...

ok, say i want 130kw plus b20vtec

i already have--- b18c7, mugen header, customized mugen twinloop (straight through pretty much) j's racing whale penis, hondata s300, spoon oil sump, hks oil cooler.

what kind of price would i be looking at? could i do it for around $5k using alot of the parts i already have?
im talking labour and tune included.

i was just planning to go toda b cams valve springs and retainers plus re-tune with my current b18c7, but im still waiting to here back from a workshop and in the meantime i've considered going b20vtec.'

opinions?

very possible. but depends on where you want the build done. people charge a lot of labour for a build in a shop , although Charlie at GPC is pretty decent
charges 800-1k for b20vtec build labour not including installation
B20 Block is cheap around $300-500 , wreckers will usually just sell you the whole engine
Bang for buck is RS machine which is basically ITR copies around $350 landed
Using aftermarket rods is optional as it is still n/a i recommend the stock ones are fine just shotpeen and press them into arp rod bolts $100
VTEC conversion kit $350
Bearing Overhaul kit $200 ( highly recommended)
New Oil pump $120

New tune ~500... calculated total around ~3k .... output power figure
same setup my cousin produced 133kw atw with toda header, 2.5inch catback with xforce twinloop, Injen CAI, Crome chipped ECU

what would i be using off my b18c7? just the head?
is the spoon sump and cooler compatible?


thanks for the brake down of costs, makes things a little clearer!

Remember to add the bolt on mods as well

will be using basically everything from your B18C7 minus the bare block..

impressions of B18C7 to B20 Block, Power delivery is much greater, straightaway there is a surge of torque, all the way to mid range then vtec comes on and it gets even better revs the same if not faster than a B18C7,
when camshafts were swapped out to rocket motorsport M22xx, revs were even faster and smoother, excellent upgrade to the ITR Camshafts.

even crank, rods, pistons??

yeah thats what im craving- more mid-range and just more power in general haha

in comparison, a b18c7 with 130kw would get chopped by a b20vtec with 130kw no worries? i just don't wanna spend all this cash for minimal gains..

benny, (or anyone) do you think mugen headers and mugen twinloop will be good to use with a b20? (keeping in mind the twinloop is now a straight pipe with one reso)
im guessing the j's racing whale penis will have to go..? (ie- get something better)

u mad?. To get the most from a B20 best piping diameter for the exhaust 2.75".
I made 121kw atw stock b16a head on stock b20b8 block with jun 2.75" catback, Toda headers, stock airbox
125kw atw with same setup but headers now RMF rep narrow and Injen CAI

sorry i should of said complete bottom end. You will obviously use your alternator, belts etc

some people have put in ITR crank but from what i have seen they dont really last very long.
It just makes more sense to use the 89mm crank vs 87mm itr crank. You will be sacrificing low end torque and hp
the ITR pistons are 81mm vs the 84mm b20

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Originally Posted by GSi_PSi

u mad?. To get the most from a B20 best piping diameter for the exhaust 2.75".
I made 121kw atw stock b16a head on stock b20b8 block with jun 2.75" catback, Toda headers, stock airbox
125kw atw with same setup but headers now RMF rep narrow and Injen CAI

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when you say 2.75", you talking about the collector size?

he is talking rubbish really...

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

he is talking rubbish really...

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LOL... care to explain more?

Anyways like i said before, you will need to weigh up all the option. Doing a B20vtec bottom end is one thing, have the right supporting bolt-ons is another. It can be a very costly exercise

2.75in is not required to make 130kw...

wouldn't you agree?

tinkerbell - it has been proven time and time again, bigger is better, for a bigger motor. Sure you can make 130kw with 2.5inch but im willing to bet anything you will have more power everywhere with 2.75inch. dont give me all this bullcrap on backpressure, there are people running 3 inch in the states for their b18c/b20 builds making exellent power. Australia is just too stupid to keep up with the times

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Originally Posted by GSi_PSi

To get the most from a B20 best piping diameter for the exhaust 2.75".

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GSi_PSi

there are people running 3 inch in the states for their b18c/b20 builds making exellent power.

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um, so which is the best? you seem to be in two minds?

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Originally Posted by u mad?

even crank, rods, pistons??

yeah thats what im craving- more mid-range and just more power in general haha

in comparison, a b18c7 with 130kw would get chopped by a b20vtec with 130kw no worries? i just don't wanna spend all this cash for minimal gains..

benny, (or anyone) do you think mugen headers and mugen twinloop will be good to use with a b20? (keeping in mind the twinloop is now a straight pipe with one reso)
im guessing the j's racing whale penis will have to go..? (ie- get something better)

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If you have both b18c and b20 making 130kw atw yes the b20 will just beat it slightly. Now give that b18c say a close gear set, say goodbye to the b20.

2.5' exhaust is more then sufficient for B20 setup. Mugen headers will work as well.

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Originally Posted by GSi_PSi

tinkerbell - it has been proven time and time again, bigger is better, for a bigger motor. Sure you can make 130kw with 2.5inch but im willing to bet anything you will have more power everywhere with 2.75inch. dont give me all this bullcrap on backpressure, there are people running 3 inch in the states for their b18c/b20 builds making exellent power. Australia is just too stupid to keep up with the times

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It might show it that it gain @ WOT, but it'll lose a considerable amount of power @ 50 % throttle. Where do you spend most of your time driving i/e street car? AT WOT or cruising say with 10-40%? throttle?

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

2.75in is not required to make 130kw...

wouldn't you agree?

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Your right Tinkerbell. If i remember right, we were running 2.5inch system making a little over 150kw's

argh

torn between going b20 or stick with my b18 and do cams and 4.9 fd



benson, how did you go about making 150kw? how much would i realistically have to spend to get there (considering a workshop will be doing it all)

If you want to keep it reasonable, you have to DIY.

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Originally Posted by Bludger

If you want to keep it reasonable, you have to DIY.

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i don't have the mechanical knowledge or the tools for that. wish i could watch/ help someone do something like this to learn. labor costs is what kills!

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Originally Posted by u mad?

argh

torn between going b20 or stick with my b18 and do cams and 4.9 fd



benson, how did you go about making 150kw? how much would i realistically have to spend to get there (considering a workshop will be doing it all)

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Realistically, adding up all parts used with bolt-ons close to $10,000. Don't forgot i did most of the work putting in the engine in and stuff. For that price in this day and ages, you can afford a K-swap (k20 or K24). Why do you think i went K-swap?

i fingered it'd be about 10k

edit- wow thats with no labor costs!

Sell your B series off and add 5k ontop and get a k24 in there :)

50% throttle ? So your saying you would rather have a bees dick more power on 50% throttle than overall at WOT ? You don't build your engine to cruise around as a daily most of the time.
Also where is the proof that you do lose power at 50% if you jump to 2.75". ? do you have any dyno sheets , comparison graphs 2.5 vs 2.75

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Originally Posted by u mad?

i fingered it'd be about 10k

edit- wow thats with no labor costs!

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and no machinist costs either!

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Originally Posted by GSi_PSi

50% throttle ? So your saying you would rather have a bees dick more power on 50% throttle than overall at WOT ? You don't build your engine to cruise around as a daily most of the time.
Also where is the proof that you do lose power at 50% if you jump to 2.75". ? do you have any dyno sheets , comparison graphs 2.5 vs 2.75

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I think you are missing the bigger picture here. Most Honda's built are daily driver 80% of the time. You want the low end torque and response to make it an enjoyable street car. Obivously once you step on it, you want the thing to move.

Who cares what size exhaust system you put on. I've seen car make power with crappy exhaust system. At the end of the day its up to the end user if they don't mind the level of noise of the exhaust whether it be 2.5, 2.75 or 3 inch

Hey guys,

My b20vtec is hooked up with a hondata s300 and the ecu is not enabling vtec with all wiring and hardware are fine..

could my ecu be playing up in anyway??

Cheers

where did you tune it champ.. i would suggest dont touch anything regarding the ecu... take it to the tuner you went to and advise him the problem he might be able to fix it for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fadam9t1

Hey guys,

My b20vtec is hooked up with a hondata s300 and the ecu is not enabling vtec with all wiring and hardware are fine..

could my ecu be playing up in anyway??

Cheers

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do you have oil pressure?

MikeyG - Thanks for the advice bro just thought id see what response ill get from this thread:)

cheers!

Tinkerbell - its not an oil pressure as Benson from ozhonda has found that the vtec solenoid is fine but the problem is just the ecu not enabling vtec even though its enabled in settings? or would it still be an oil pressure issue?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by MikeyG

where did you tune it champ.. i would suggest dont touch anything regarding the ecu... take it to the tuner you went to and advise him the problem he might be able to fix it for you.

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Btw bro the first owner got it tuned at toda.. after he sold it to an italian guy he then turboed it?

if it is not mechanicals, then can you post the S300 Calibration (.skl) that you are using? or email it to me?

it will be easy to work it out from there...

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

if it is not mechanicals, then can you post the S300 Calibration (.skl) that you are using? or email it to me?

it will be easy to work it out from there...

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No worries man whats your email address tinkerbell?

Guys,

I gotta b16/b20 atm although im planning to go stock 18c7 head for more response+Compression?

Please advise if this is a good option or not?

Cheers

no.

compression will be the same (depending if the heads have not been shaved).

only a VTiR B18C2 head can increase compression...

anyone selling a bare block?

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Originally Posted by Bludger

anyone selling a bare block?

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i ws in this situation awhile, had to buy a complete engine.. ripped it apart only for the block. seems like a waste cost me 800bucks.....

You can get entire motors for like $500 at Hondarec can't you?

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Originally Posted by Bludger

anyone selling a bare block?

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Yeah my mate is, just sent him a SMS

thank you.

Part from dyno dave being one of the best for tuning hondas..

is there anyone else that can tune b20vtec's?

Adrian - TODA australia, Scott - Insight Motorsports, Bel Garage, Chris - Protune,

Any of these guys in Melb? I want a good Honda specialist in Melb and I hear nasty whispers about some of the 'better' workshops...