Civic Type R $39,990 + On Roads

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronng

That was in the 90's. Everyone was doing stripped-down fast cars. It is now 2007 and everyone wants power, handling, comforts, CD stackers and bluetooth.


Because the Type S makes peak torque at 7000rpm. I don't think you want an engine with no low rpm torque. JDM Type Rs make more torque at a similar RPM. So they have different ECU mapping, probably for their 100 RON fuel.

---

So slipangle and I don't count in the everyone category? We don't WANT comforts, CD stackers and bluetooth! And that is exactly why this is a TYPE S, it should not ride on the coat-tails of TYPE R. I've busted my kidneys for over 7 years on shocking Sydney roads for`Type R' cred and now you guys get to do it in comfort? :p

If I wanted an engine with low rpm torque I wouldn't be driving an NA 4 cylinder... Forget about the RON 100, the new CTR has a better torque curve than the K20, but are we not right to expect more than 148kw since we first saw 147kw in 2001? Especially with more weight? Shouldn't performance be a reasonable question for a car marketed as a sports car, carrying an established brand (Type R)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mpd076-chuck

So slipangle and I don't count in the everyone category? We don't WANT comforts, CD stackers and bluetooth! And that is exactly why this is a TYPE S, it should not ride on the coat-tails of TYPE R. I've busted my kidneys for over 7 years on shocking Sydney roads for`Type R' cred and now you guys get to do it in comfort? :p

If I wanted an engine with low rpm torque I wouldn't be driving an NA 4 cylinder... Forget about the RON 100, the new CTR has a better torque curve than the K20, but are we not right to expect more than 148kw since we first saw 147kw in 2001? Especially with more weight? Shouldn't performance be a reasonable question for a car marketed as a sports car, carrying an established brand (Type R)?

---

Unfortunately, you are the minority. And in business, majority wins because that's where the profits are (if the company doesn't survive, there won't be anymore Type R, Type S, Type A, Type B or Type C. Unlike Toyota, Honda doesn't have large volume sales to cover the cost of developing a Type R if it doesn't sell enough numbers. It's just like Canon and Nikon. Canon can put out wonderful top end cameras at $11,000 a pop and not sell many because they have the revenue from printers, scanners and fax machines to cover it.

Like i said in my previous post,i would buy the new CTR with either the badge typeR or typeS if i have the money because its a nice car with the right package. Now when i said if i have the money i mean $45k spare lying around, im happy what we have been offered with the CTR by Honda Australia because thats all we really can get. I bought the 05 TypeS before because thats all i have been offered by Honda Aus and I was fully happy with it, but if i have been offered the TypeS and the TypeR from JP, i would choose the TypeR. I could buy the 02-04 Type R but no because i wanted a new car and 05 had a facelift.

Sad but true is that Honda AU cant get the Jap CTR for some reasons, I mean the JDM CTR is already made for production after all the $$$ is spent to develope it, whats so hard Honda JP to export them to our market, im really curious about that. So if Aus can get both the UK CTR and the JP CTR, i will put my money on the JP CTR. Anyways, the Integra TypeS didnt do to well with the sales even it has a complete package, power, comfort and appearance.

What engine does the civic have? it has 148kw right? sounds close to a k20a2? it has a red rocker cover right? vtec 'engagement' is lower right? something like 5k?

Anyways, i'll definately be watching with interest with how sales go. What was the main opinions of the other models? dc2r - too harshe for every day? dc5r - not a real type r? dc5s - not a type r and market going away from coupes?

so where does the new civic fit in? probably not too harshe, is labled type r, is it a real type r? dunno, i guess it'll all come down to how fast it is and how well it handles... evo mag did a review and comparison of it (against focus st, megane r26, golf gti, etc) and they were disappointed i think. (correct me if i'm wrong, i don't have a copy of the article)

Still think it looks great inside, not so sure about outside.

if the civic did come in with less 'features' (eg it was what we would call, more stripped down) i reckon it'd wouldn't be all that much cheaper.. maybe $35,990+ ORC? Then it might not sell as well because compeditors cars offer more value for money, and like aaronng said people want that these days.

ohhh this is some good discussion!

just remember, new cars is a business. Its not worth bringing these true type Rs in for such a small market of die hard honda fans!
We have sold a few to business men, and one to a gentleman over 50 coz he wants it for a daily.

They dont make intergas anymore coz that market is over, nobody wants one, ony the 'die hard' honda fans would want a true type R integra...i doubt honda would think it would be worth making just a few thousand world wide to keep them happy.

Be realistic, its a business and the civic the way it is in the australian market is wat we need.

Japan is totally different, look at the cars they have....

To use another Porsche analogy (albeit exaggerated) that some might better understand... Don't build a Cayenne and call it a 911. There is a large 911 fan base, (undoubtedly bigger and deeper pocketed than purist Type R fans,) and when you continue to put out products that don't display the integraty (pun intended :) ) from which the fans had formed their loyalty, then you will screw all that awareness and goodwill that had been built with the people (like me) who had purchased in to that brand. If Porsche tomorrow said that they'd stop making 911s and future models will be front engined and weigh 2 tonnes, I doubt that they will continue to be the most profitable car company in the world.

I have fallen deeply for the DC2R (sad but true), I'm fortunate not to be limited financially to virtually any mainstream performance car available on the market, but I choose to be patient, for someone to make something that is worthy of my dollars, something that displays that the manufacturer has really moved the game on from the DC2R. From what I've seen of the FD2, this hits a lot of those buttons. For now, I still have an affinity with Honda (and Porsches!), but if the Japanese folk were not creating the cars they are in Honda Japan, my affinity with Honda will slowly dissolve and I will not place them as first preference among the Japanese makers, they may as well become a Toyota and build as many mundane Civics as they can to bolster their balance sheets, then people with a loyalty like me will not place them first on the list to earn my money. They will just become another maker of a commodity from which I can choose between a whole host of generic suppliers. Yes, Honda is a commercial entity in business to make money, but Soichiro also recognised that there is an intangible factor in creating halo cars that say something about their capabilities that don't necessarily make them any money on those particular niche cars, but say a lot about Honda, and in particular Type R. This UK CTR says to me... I just want to sell as many of these things as I can...the bigger the subwoofer, the better. I suppose even the Pussycat dolls make money in the music industry :), but in time, they will slowly fade away (hopefully) in to irrelevance, like Type R if Honda Aus keeps telling people like me that sat nav and electric power steering is more worthy than genuine performance and driver involvement.

I don't mind the fact that the JDM car is a 4 door, I know in the results that it weighs even less than this 3 door car we're getting...and I have more confidence that those clever people in Japan has pored over the minute details to extract as much performance as possible within the Type R ethos. They didn't come to the conclusion that it could do without an LSD...they've shown us in the comparative lap times that it is a very effective machine despite the 4 door layout.

I leave you now with the image of Ayrton Senna driving the NSX Type R around Suzuka (if you haven't seen it, youtube it, it's worth it). Now, there is a core appeal of true Type R, whether it be an NSX, Civic or Integra. The only image I associate with the UK CTR are hats worn backwards and neon lights driving down Chapel st wif da doof doof cranked up to 11.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hullabaloo

so where does the new civic fit in? probably not too harshe, is labled type r, is it a real type r? dunno, i guess it'll all come down to how fast it is and how well it handles... evo mag did a review and comparison of it (against focus st, megane r26, golf gti, etc) and they were disappointed i think. (correct me if i'm wrong, i don't have a copy of the article)

---

I don't see the comparo on their website: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/archive/

it will be interesting to see the sales results... being realtively new to hondas (not so much of a vtec fanatic) i dont feel that strongly about the "Type R" badge... Honda has done the smart thing here... hot hatches are the flavour of the months and they bring repeat customers in to buy the family car etc.. VW has done the same thing with the GTi.... an iconic badge for much longer than "Type R".

To compete with these cars, the car needs to be specced up... its hooks will be its character and styling (which is divisive, but ive got an FD civic so i know what it feels like). At the end of the day, all car makers are in business to MAKE MONEY... How many nice cars are going to be available if Honda cater to a small bunch of enthusiasts half of which (lets be real here) have no intention of buying either the JDM or UK CTR.

It's funny that people are saying that the UK CTR is not a true type R, while they like the JDM one which breaks the Type R tradition of having 2 doors. :)

Oh and for that Porsche analogy, they are backed by the German government. I don't think Honda Australia is backed by the Australian government and therefore can't risk bad business models.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronng

It's funny that people are saying that the UK CTR is not a true type R, while they like the JDM one which breaks the Type R tradition of having 2 doors. :)

Oh and for that Porsche analogy, they are backed by the German government. I don't think Honda Australia is backed by the Australian government and therefore can't risk bad business models.

---

Porsche are a publicly listed company with probably the largest brand awareness of any car manufacturer. They know how to do business in the car world and they are very good at trading off their brand. Their success is not a product of Government protectionism unlike our local manufacturers. In fact a lot of their business comes from consultancy so they know a thing or two.

What Honda Aus are risking are the loyalty of a group of their devotees. Having said that, I don't doubt that they will continue to make money, and that you can't please all people. They will probably gain followers from this venture, but every once in a while, at least throw us a bone to keep us types happy, and don't try to tell me this orange is the latest and greatest apple!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slipangle

To use another Porsche analogy (albeit exaggerated) that some might better understand... Don't build a Cayenne and call it a 911. There is a large 911 fan base, (undoubtedly bigger and deeper pocketed than purist Type R fans,) and when you continue to put out products that don't display the integraty (pun intended :) ) from which the fans had formed their loyalty, then you will screw all that awareness and goodwill that had been built with the people (like me) who had purchased in to that brand. If Porsche tomorrow said that they'd stop making 911s and future models will be front engined and weigh 2 tonnes, I doubt that they will continue to be the most profitable car company in the world.

---

I agree with what you are saying here, but I think we need to note that unlike Porshe, the majority of Honda sales are not in the traditional 'sports car' market. Look at the number of Euro's sold as a good example.

That being said, I do find it incredibly interesting the direction of the new car market. You have companies like Nissan who are bringing out the 'super car' gtr as well as the sales seen of the 350z and rx8. To me it would appear on its face that the sports car market is doing pretty well. That being said I think a few things always need to be considered by car manufacturers when looking at new models:

• Market size and scope
• Market demand (whether influenced by the particular manufacturer through advertising or not)
• Strategic direction of the overall car manufacturer
• Strategic direction of the local car manufacturer (ie the Honda brand in the Australian setting - this is particularly different to the last dot point)
• etc etc

I think we also need to remember that most people here are not true representatives of the car buying public. Most here are enthusiasts, who know (or want to know) about their cars which is fairly different to the average buyer.