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hey guys
I might be after a exhaust soon, just wondering what are some good exhaust shops i can go to, to have my exhaust done custom.
Is the lower price worth it? do you actually feel low end power? cos i feel like that's what my car needs at the moment, only got a injen CAI
is HKS a reputable brand for exhaust systems on honda's? i keep hearing that its not very good, and sometimes has opposite effects of making dyno figures worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by DC5.Raven
the exhaust itself doesnt sound too bad according to the catalogue, but can you hear a little grumble of the silent hi-power as you do with the normal hi-power at idle? just kinda interested in it.. thankss
sorry to hijack the thread dude lol
Personally I do like the HKS Hi Power / Silent exhausts.
I had one on my previous car.
I liked the exhaust note as it wasn't droning
and it didnt feel like it was losing bottom end power
(like other exhaust brands and custom systems)
but it still had gains at the top end.
Youtube clips and online soundclips aren't the best.
Go and find someone who's got one on their car.
i like the 5zigen ones myself ..
everyone will probably tell you something different tho lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by burak213
Custom shops are good, because they make what you want. You are not driving the TODA racecar. You’re driving your own car; therefore you want a system designed specifically for your needs.
The two most important factors for improving low end are length and width of the tubes.
Get a shop to make you a 4-2-1 style header, have the shop focus on the primaries of the header; preferably you would want them to be long as possible, of equal length, in order to synchronize pulses with the valve openings.
The other major aspect is to increase exhaust velocity by decreasing the runner width, in order to create a ram-style effect, for improving flow.
If a shop can design a system specifically for your needs, it’s dam well worth it. The norm with aftermarket manufacturer’s now days is, all about top end power. Why? Peak dyno figures sell items. Dyno’s are the virtue in today’s world. It’s all about how many horses one system will make compared with another.
But do keep in mind, you will not add any extra torque, all it will do is merely shift the torque towards the low end. If you can feel it at the top, you can feel it at the bottom.
Why is it then that TODA headers improve power & torque everywhere, particularly low end & part throttle power.Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeS
There's no real shift in the torque, rather a total increase, accross the board.
Re custom header
I'm not saying no one could produce a better header than ours.
But I challenge you to find that person & have it made for less.
And deliver equal or better quality, with equal or better performance.
What he said ^
I think custom headers & exhaust systems are abit hit and miss in general.
If you're looking for decent power gains, custom isn't the best way to go.
Fabricating an exhaust that gives you power gains isnt easy.
There's quite a bit of research and development involved.
Requires alot of testing/dyno runs and tuning.
True, 'branded-off the shelf' exhausts will cost you significantly more.
But essentially you are paying for the R&D, testing and tuning that is involved.
I think thyre worth the extra money.
But at the end of the day its up to you.
how much does a custom one usually cost? i know it would vary, but can anyone giv me an idea? Whats some shops that do custom? im in nsw
Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
Anything with a 4-2-1 long tube design, is going to improve torque and power, all over the range, compared to the stock manifold. Heck even a shorty, will yield better results than the stock. That is not the point. My point is a custom designed system, aimed at low end, will perform better at the low end, than your TODA, comprehend?
I for one hate dyno’s, but if it will help get the point across, then so be it. I've seen numerous dyno's of the TODA header, and they all show power skewed to the top end. I'll even throw in an example, the following dyno is a comparison between Toda exhaust + Stock headers compared to the full system.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8867/dyno1j.jpg
Now show me, where these Toda headers, “particularly” improve torque and power in the low end. The gains are particularly in the top end, are they not?
You’re kidding right? Explain to me how torque is created magically by your headers?Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
Headers do not increase torque they merely shift the torque curve.
Primary pipe diameters, determine where the torque will occur. Smaller the diameter, lower the torque. If you make the pipes larger, you sacrifice on low end, for the benefit of top end. Similarly primary lengths do the same. If you want me to go into further detail I will.
Now as for Torque, it is a twisting force, therefore it is dependent on displacement .
Have you ever heard of the saying,”there is no replacement for displacement”? Increasing the displacement increases torque, not bolting on a set of extractors.
Similarly torque is increased by shortening the gear ratios, shortening the bore while lengthening the stroke, or even by increasing the air feed, I could go on and on…
TODA headers, including the sway, cost well above $2000, and that’s not even including a cat. You’re telling me, no-one can design a header, within that budget, which will outperform the low end of the TODA?Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
Your ignorant know it all attitude, is a joke. You do no justice to TODA.
How about, I give you a reality check. There are a number of exhaust engineers out there, who are capable of doing this. These guys often don’t get any recognition simply, because they do not represent a JDM brand. If you think, this is such a challenge; you have been sitting at your dyno for too long.
I’m not a fan of, ripping other people’s work. But I could walk into a custom shop, and have them make me a header, based off a SSR/Hytech/Toda design but modified to improve low end performance. And you know what? It would cost half the price, whilst performing better.
Don’t get me wrong, TODA headers are good, if you are after top end gains. But you will be foolish to think, a custom piece can not be designed, to be better in the low end. Before you repeat yourself, it’s not as much of a challenge as you think, if you know where to go.
At the end of the day you are, first salesman, second tuner, conning people into wasting money, is your job. I understand, I really do.
hmm, just to throw some math into the mix......
torque or moment is a roatational force and is the sum of force times distance.
now when you get aftermarket headers, you reduce backpressure hence reducing forces acting contrary to the cylinder vector direction. less backpressure means more F (force) hence increasing torque which is clearly seen in the dyno sheet provided by type S.
i can see type s's point of view stating that you can custom build a header to increase the low end figures on the dyno, however to acheive the magnitude of increase seen in the high end would be impossible simple because of the effect of inertia of a higher spinning engine. the flywheel and self weight of the internals themselves would act as a force acting with the direction of the cylinders hence their combined torque acts against backpressure and is the reason why the torque increase more so at the high end. of course this increase in torque is very minor compared to increasing displacement for example as TYPES suggested, but it does exist.
Also As Toda has stated, their headers do infact increase your torque across the whole rev range, and this is also supported by your dyno sheet. the output in KW is related to the torque curve as the dyno power figures is what is being transferred to the dyno wheel, hence torque curve = output times rotation of the dyno wheel.
this is just an obeservation from an engineering POV, all im saying is that torque can be created and this is the reason. where the torque occurs is a function of the pipe design (TYPES). if i am incorrect rebuttal is welcome as i, like everyone else here is here to learn.
I tried out a few custom systems a few years back.Quote:
Originally Posted by AbzMina
First went to Hi-Tech Mufflers in Darlinghurst.
They were around 400ish I think for a cat-back (not sure about the price now though).
Wasn't quite satisfied with it so went to Best Mufflers in Carlton.
The guy there really knows what he's talking about.
But theres plenty of other options. E.g. Liverpool Exhausts, or anything in the back of Hot4s.
And in regards to custom made exhausts / headers,
Ive had a couple cat-back exhausts made for me (but have never had custom headers made for me).
Thus my opinion is purely based on my experiences with custom cat-backs.
And the result was that I was not satisfied both of the times.
Then I had decided to just go with 'branded' exhausts.
Personally the I don't really like custom made stuff based from my previous experiences.
The reason being that although you can request for something (low-end power gains), you don't really know what you're going to get until they have fabricated the system.
From the ones that I've gone to, they dont test or tune these obviously because it will be time consuming and costly, and hence cost you more.
Most times the best they can do (to get low-end gains) is fabricate one using a small-ish pipe diameter, mandrel bends and a straight through muffler, whilst at the same time ensuring that the piping bends complement the car (suspension clearances etc etc).
At this point in time all you can do is hope that you got what you wanted and paid for.
The reason that I do like 'branded' products is there is no guess work involved.
The research, testing and tuning is already done.
Most of them can show you (using dyno figures) what their exhaust is going to do for you, and particularly where the increase of power is going to be across the rev range.
For me personally, I am a fan of Toda headers.
They provide a quality product with proven performance.
But at the same time, yes, they are quite costly in comparison to other brands of headers and custom headers.
And I would be happy with those gains.
At the same time, I do agree with you TypeS.
Based on the dyno figure you have provided, although there is some overall gain across the rev range, gains are predominantly in the top end (excess of 5.5k rpms).
To the OP, it really comes down to what you are looking for.