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On my DC2R, i've had stock sussy, and then Koni and Eibachs, and then Buddy Club racing spec dampers, and now got Zeal Function X.
The BC and Zeals Spring rates are the same, yet due to the damper/shock design, it chopped 2.1 seconds of my lap times at Wakefield.
A shock is not just a shock. And it is a big deal IMHO.
IMO Oil shocks are FAR superior to gas shocks.
If they are for the street or something, then yeah Koni's are fine... but I much prefer the stock 'coilovers'.
VTECMACHINE, just in case u don't realise, the main problem is his front shocks are leaking oil, which means 2 things:
1. he has to rebuilt the stock shocks
2. he needs to get aftermarket shocks
from what i know, the difference in price between number 1 and 2 are not that much, so that's why he's thinking of getting new aftermarket shocks...and read also on his last post, he's using it mainly for street driving, he's not looking to have a stiff ride that those racing coilovers (that u're using) offer...
on the issue of stock shocks are better than aftermarket shocks, i might have to disagree with u mate...why would ppl buy aftermarket shocks and springs combo to improve their handling performance if that proved to be sh*t? true, they don't offer the same performance as aftermarket coilovers, but i'm sure most ppl including suspension mechanics would agree that most aftermarket shock and springs combo are better compared to stock setup (mind u, we're not talking about matching king springs with aftermarket shocks)...
I think we have to segregate the market here.
vtecmachine you have good personal advice but I think your price range and target market does not cater to my market segment. I.e. you seem like a track person so obviously you'll be willing to spend more yeah
Others are daily drivers who do occasional squirts around the mountain or what not, so anything fairly basic off the shelf will in most cases be suitable - in use and in budget.
Either way, I belive my questions have been answered, they do look blown.. *bah* so I'll start looking for some low K OEM stuff or koni. i belive a brand new koni > 120,000kms blown OEM :) :)
I should add reputable aftermarket shocks into that statement. I'm sure OEM type R shocks are still no match for el-chepo shocks :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydsyd
Jeff, get a new shocks man. don't get 2nd cause you won't know how many Ks exactly it has been used. My first choice would be koni yellow. Thinking of koni red too for more budget. I haven't experienced it though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydsyd
I get what you guys are talking about. Sure put what you like on a VTi-R, or GSi, or civic or what ever. But on a Type R DC2, the suspension plays such a huge role in making the car what it is. Putting Koni's on kills the ride. I have driven many DC2R with Koni's and the Stock DC2R suspension will eat it for breakfast lunch and tea. Ofcourse it's all about setup and what springs you use too. But surely you wouldn't think Honda spent the millions of dollar in R&D for no reason, when some guy could go out buy some adjustable shocks throw them in, and put some springs over the shocks, and all will be better. It doesn't work like this.
And no I wasn't telling you to go buy exxy coilovers - I wasn't telling you do anything, was just stating that Stock DC2R suspension is more refined in terms of setup for the car, than a cheap oil shock.
But meh, if you like.. good stuff man! Enjoy them...
That's not what I'm saying. Sure you can get pricey racing oriented dampers such as Ohlins or say Penske that will be superior to Koni, but that's another story. Note that I said "readily available dampers", which doesn't really include brands such as Ohlins (at least I've never run across them for sale anywhere remotely convenient, even if you could buy some ready to just bolt on to a Civic or Accord etc, which I suspect is unlikely).Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
I'm not sure how Bilsteins stack up against Ohlins, Penske etc, but my understanding is that Penske is as good as it gets, and that Penske uses Bilstein valves inside their products (albeit modified I think)...
And then you say "IMO Oil shocks are FAR superior to gas shocks"...???Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
My understanding is that Konis are low pressure gas dampers, which in theory shouldn't be as good as a high pressure gas damper, which Ohlins, Penske etc may well be(?). However, I think you need to go at least to a Bilstein to get high pressure gas. Pressurised gas is better than non pressurised because the pressure helps resist cavitation and foaming inside the damper.
Probably(?) the best thing about high pressure gas dampers is that you can mount them upside down, thus eliminating the mass of the damper body from total unsprung weight.
You say; "A shock is not just a shock. And it is a big deal IMHO", and I fully agree with you here. The dampers are the foundation of any good suspension set up.
Used all sorts over the years, from crap to Konis, in a number of sedans and in a Lotus style 'clubman' sports car ('Nota', a rather esoteric marque). Only for road work though, my racing has all been in karting.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
I'm not disputing that the stock DC2R dampers aren't excellent, I've never driven on them, but suggesting that Konis are rubbish is 'way out there'. I would suggest that people who "stuff up" their handling by fitting Konis have them adjusted way wrong...
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
Worth a read...
There are Ohlins and there are Ohlins. I don't believe that the automotive Ohlins are in the same league as the Motorcycle Ohlins, from what I know, different factory.
If you paid the same price as you did for Ohlins to Koni, they'd be able to make you a set thats the same as the Ohlins, hell, they'd probably tune to your valving requirements too.
Oil or Gas suspensions are commonly misunderstood item. All gas shocks have oil (although not all oil have gas) but Koni Yellows (Popular for street performance) are oil/gas shocks. Hell, even the stock ITR shocks are oil/gas. Whats different, potentially is the valving rate in the shock.
I use Koni's coupled with ITR springs for street use (Well, Until I started FIGHTEX anyway, which I now use for street as well because they're actually quite a comfortable ride for what they are - FIGHTEX N1).
I think the issue with Koni's are that alot of people don't know how to set them up or match them. All to often, I see people just turn up the Koni's to the stiffest or near stiffest. Of course its going to be harsh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
Yellow is better than Red in the Koni world and more expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by twing
x2Quote:
Originally Posted by e240
I'd sell my soul to the Devil for Koni Yellows..
But didn't it go Blue>Yellow>Red?
Very comfy on a soft setting...Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
There you go, it's about how well the suspension is set up. Adjustables do open up the real possibility of getting the damper settings way wrong, especially if using aftermarket springs as well. Get it wrong and the stock set up is very likely to be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
Consider that the dampers are one of the many items that will be compromised under pressure from the almighty bean counters at head office, and the suspension engineers will have to come to compromises they may not prefer to make (e.g. "yes you can use those tyres but only if you cut money out somewhere else").Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
And, even with 'sports' oriented models the intended market demographic won't be particularly 'hard core', compromises for ride comfort over ultimate performance will be in the package, in most cases.
Aftermarket manufacturers like Koni, Bilstein et al are not quite so constrained, they can build really good dampers and sell them for a higher price to the more hard core enthusiasts (and to car manufacturers who place a premium on handling such as Aston Martin, BMW, Ferrari etc etc), and they do know what they're doing...
Oh, by the way, guess who provides suspensions for Lewis Hamilton's F1 Car... :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
I dont think Blue exist hehe
Thanks everyone for your input. Highly appreciate it.