head came off today. cylinder 2 sleeve 6 thou below level of deck..
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head came off today. cylinder 2 sleeve 6 thou below level of deck..
omg, i feel your pain....
Had a few emails,
He said that I can send the whole motor back and they will fix/replace and pay for shipping both ways.
So my costs will still have been
Investigate
Remove head
Remove engine
Put head on
Mount on create
Unmount from create
Re attach fittings to head/ block
Reinstall engine
Retune to be safe.
Another few thousand down the drain. But not as bad as it could have been if the builder wasn't so helpful in resolving this.
I guess.. Watch this space, another engine will be on it's way soon.
Consider yourself very lucky they have been willing to do that.
I had a similar issue with a set of sleeve's that went oval on me, all i was offered was for them to remove and replace them, no shipping costs or anything.....
Hope all goes well 2nd time round! = )
vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry lucky!
but sleeving is so often borjked by these yanks,
why so hard to install liners???
So does this mean that the head pretty much doesn't seal properly to the block around cylinder 2 and just pisses water into the cylinder from the sleeve?
He said, We stress-relieve the blocks and do everything possible to settle the sleeves in the Dart blocks.
So I guess it's just old fashioned bad luck.
With the sleeve being lower, it creates a little lift of the gasket between the cylinders, which allows water to come in. I guess of it wasn't o ringed, the seal would be worse, and the leaking more pronounced.
Icing on the cake.
Went to the hyperdome, bought some stuff( long range nerf gun lol), took it to the car then went to the movies. Come back to an empty car. Lost my gf laptop and overnight bag, which is basically her whole life at the moment because she is a poor uni student, her travel photos, uni assignment and notes. And my battery drill which I don't really care about.
Since things happen in 3's I wonder what's going to go wrong next.
Anyway back on topic, I decided to max out my setup, which means the biggest turbo that will fit my setup/physical size constraints.
Gtx3076r..
Oh almost forgot,
I got a 45 series 4 port Mac valve which let's me run big boost with a soft wastegate spring as it switches boost and atmo between top and bottom ports of the wastegate and also ordered a 3psi wastegate spring, so hopefully I can grip first gear on drag radials at the track, and also run like 25psi or whatever.
4 port mac valve sounds interesting ! especially since you can only really add 10psi'ish with conventional boost solenoid valves!
Good luck mate!
the new block has been heat and cool cycled with the new apparatus which loads each sleeve individually and should be removed from it tomorrow. machining work will start straight away, and larry said that it should be together by the weekend.
hopefully the shipping process will start early next week.
awesome, good luck !
Engine builder said
We had poor results with the new block after all of the work. I'm beginning to think that Dart is having machining issues.
We removed the sleeves from your block, re-machined the receiver notch just below the deck and installed new sleeves. After a week of "stress", we can not make the sleeves settle any more.
So it looks like they have it sorted now, but if any of you guys go dart, be careful! Might be more trouble then it's worth if your engine builder isn't really on the ball.
Shuld have just fitted a set of darton MID sleeves here in OZ. Would have avoided all the head FuC$ and save a hella lot of money!
Crap, mid sleeves are the worst but Dart blocks are known for issues and seems your unlucky enough to have got one. Question is, if it goes again, what is Larry going to do for you?
Those pretty crap mid sleeves are working just fine for me :)
+1. Stock sleeves + closed deck is the way to go !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholzey
i am confident if it happens again he will do the same. like he said.. they stand behind their product 100%, which is why he is going to the lengths he is to make sure that nothing can possibly happen block wise.
it just looks like the long list of prep work to the dart blocks now has a longer list, and nothing that is pre machined from dart can be trusted as plug and play.
so i guess i can insure the next block that endyn sends out will be trouble free.
Thats good to hear, but how many other mid sleeve builds do you know of and their issues, I know of about 10-15 and alot have had issues with sinking sleeves, it also depends on how much power your pushing, if you arnt pushing much, you'll tend to have less issues, problem with mid sleeves is so much of the original blocks strength and integrity is machined away to accomodate the sleeve.Quote:
Originally Posted by dai-16t
Im not saying they dont work, im just saying they tend to have issues, more so ones pushing decent power due to flexing of the block. Cooling issues also seem to promote failures as the block will heat quicker then the sleeve hence causing issues between the block and the sleeve.
As for Larry offering warranty on this forever, id like to see that, as im sure if it gets fitted and runs for a decent period and does it again, it'll be less likely he would come to the party as with any "race engine" they are not given warranty, as failure can and does happen.
Goodluck though and welcome to the joys of playing with cars! ; )
Problems with mids come from fitment. Mine were done by a very reputable shop and I also use a erl 5 point main girdle so weakness I guess is non existent. Power wise I am at 430kw atw. No troubles yet.
Anyways back on the dart story.
This is still about the Dart story, as you mentioned issues come fitment be that mids or whatever into an OEM block or Dart putting metal liners into their blocks, the OP had cooling issues and you will probably find this is what started the issue where the block was hot enough to allow the sleeve to become a little to lose and they drop, causing the head gasket to no longer seal so they either push oil or water due to combustion or allow either substance to enter the chamber.
engine light came one once from temps, and the problem was before this :)
im not sure how the sleeves sit in the block, but i would have thought that there are two square edges that touch and once bottomed out, they wouldnt be able to move. or is there a wedge to square edge?
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how can a sleeve possibly sink if the surfaces are both square to eachother? or is that the problem?
it sounds like the not square thing was my problem when they tried the second time, because they machined it themselves after bad results on the first try on the second block..
lol
I cant comment on how the dart block sleeves are located but i'm pretty sure they will have a flange at the top of the steel sleeve that locates into a machined recese in the aluminium block as per your first diagram.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholzey
As for the darton MID sleeves, if the machining and install of the sleeves are done properly there is no way that they can sink, there is a 5mm step that the sleeve sits on at the bottom of the water jacket. the usual issue is that the sleeve isn't sitting down hard when it is decked.
i've machined 6 blocks for darton MID sleeves and never had an issue and the block in my car was the first one we done and it has done 25000kms at 450+kw@wheels and it's never been touched.
In short all sleeved blocks regardless of manufacture are fine providing the workmanship off the install is perfect! Obviousily Slaz knows of some failures of darton sleeved blocks as do i, but it is most definitly not a fault of the design of the sleeve it is 100% down to the person who installed them incorrectly.
Anyway hopefully Scholzey has a better run this time round and we see the car out at the track again!
Gotta agree, though I've had mixed results over the years, I definatly agree they need to be installed perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by turbotegs
& the ones that have been have been issue free, some running for many years & still going.
But it's funny you say that, cause Slaz actually had a Darton sleeved block done by Darton themselves...
Long story short, the sleaves both dropped & went out of round. The block was sent back & they fed him the same sort of speal you just said. Now obviously the guy inspecting the block & doint the report haddn't spoken to the sales guys & visa versa as they then asked who did it. LOL...
You can imagine their surprise when the finger was pointing straight back at them LOL...
The're heaps of side issues also but that'd be off topic (& Slaz probably tells it better) but yeah I completly understand his lack of confidence in their product.
Re Dart blocks...
Sorry, can't say I'm a fan to be honest.
I've only used a few & they are definatly not without their issues.
Sleeves is one, then there are the main caps & the doosey... The silicon/sandy shiite that comes away from the casting after a few hrs of use that can be found in the last chance filter screen for the Vtec (WTF!)
according to this article - you are supposed to spend half a day addressing the effects of the sand-casting process:Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/t...t/viewall.html
Quote:
LW: Honda blocks are die cast, whereas Dart blocks are sand-cast. Look at a Honda block and you'll notice how smooth it is relative to an aftermarket version. Internally and externally the Dart block is much rougher, which is why we spend about a half-day going through it to get rid of the coarseness and porosity. This helps oil drain back to the pan faster. We also open up all those passages and polish them for even greater efficiency. Honda heads need lots of oil to ensure valvetrain longevity, so we want to get the oil back to the pan fast to get it circulating.
Hahaha, having heard that i can also understand Slaz's lack of confidence in darton!Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
LOL, I'm talking after you've done all that (& it actually takes more like a full day to get it all done)Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
& still the silicon casting shiite can appear...
450 Still isnt a heap of power in a B series, the engine of question where a workshop was looking to sue the installer/machinist was Mid sleeves installed into a RB26 block. When they are pushing 1000hp+, no crank girdle or perfect install is going to stop that block deforming to a point the sleeves will fail, the insurer of the machinist hired an engineer who was at Ferrari and he found inherient flaws where a few engine types were named as being very prone to failing due to the block not having enough structure left to support the power levels they were asking of it.
Personally I will be using the new mid sleeve block I had redone but it seems that the solid sleeve blocks that ERL,GE, and a few others do, seem to have much less problems then the mids.
As for the Dart, ive seen one Adrian had to deal with and when you saw what happened, you really do wonder about the IQ of the guy who designed the caps and thrust face retention on that block.
This is getting well off topic and i can appreciate that you have had issues with a darton block, but there is plenty off b series darton sleeved blocks that are making 1000hp in the states without issues, i agree that there are better sleeved blocks available but a well prepared and installed darton sleeved block will suffice for the majority of builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaz
as for the nissan RB26 block that you speak of are you sure that it was a MID sleeved block? as Darton don't list a MID sleeve kit for the RB26 (unless it was a special?) only a dry replacement sleeve.
Yes tegs i agree with you that there are plenty out there and they work, BUT, they also have a higher failure rate then the other ways of sleeving, and yes, Darton did produce mids for the RB26, they do not anymore and aftre the findings of the information I told very little about.
i don't know if i was clear about what is happening with my blocks. but now i understand.
my second block that they prepared and didn't like after all the machining work etc. is not being used. they removed the sleeves from my original block did the machining of the receiving notch and put in new sleeves.
the short block is together and the head is prepared. he is just waiting for a custom thickness head gasket now.
they said it should ship around next Wednesday :)
Excellent news mate. Really glad to see they're trying to make it up to you :)
well another problem popped up when they had the engine together. they did a leakdown test and didnt like the results, they pulled the head and found that there had been debris go through the engine, there were tiny indentations on the valve seats and valves.
so... they did another valve job..
im starting to feel sorry for them. but im greatly appreciative of what they are doing.
im not sure what could have been the cause, although i had had the intercooler output changed to 3inch from 2.5 and had 3 in pipe from intercooler to tb done.
maybe they didnt clean the cooler as well as it could have been? i don't know...
he asked that i clean all my piping and intercooler out, and use an air filter(which i do).
so... the engine will ship shortly when they organise all the paperwork to make customs know whats going on.
Wow...
It's better all these little things go wrong in their workshop where they can fix them as they pop up.
Your definitely getting your monies worth though, its great to see them pulling their weight to ensure in the end your a happy customer :thumbsup:
If only there were more people/businesses like this out there...
Poor guys lol. But still very heartwarming to see some people are truly dedicated to their reputation and customer satisfaction
shit mic thats real bad luck!... also what size arp studs/torque setting you useing?
I don't know those specifics, I was told to re torque them down to 70ft lbs when we were problem solving before, so I can only assume that is the setting that they pulled them down to. :)
But All I know is that my engine is on it's way!!!!
It looks like this time my break in period will be very short.
The builder said that the rings should seat in 5-6 pulls on the dyno and should be fully broken in after 50miles under load.
So we will see how that goes.
Awesome awesome news! :)
Sorry man I've probably just missed it, but how many pounds are you going to be running? And are you still upgrading the turbo? Car looks great man, Im pretty sure it was yours atleast, saw it when I went to see Ivan. Keep it up :thumbsup:
well good things must happen in 3's as well
my bro and his fiance had a baby boy 2 days ago,
my engine is a week away,
the laptop that got stolen from the car i was loaning has turned up and i should be able to recieve it back next week from the police.. just in time to tune my car! :P
Glad to hear mate :)
paid those fools at customs...
even though i didnt pay a cent for my engine this time, i had to pay customs $522.
i hate those guys... grrr
It good to see everything going good
What th reason for paying the fools at customs? lol
He had to pay as he didnt let customs know that the engine was going for repair, if he did, there would have been no charges.
I have heard this is the case. If you ensure customs are aware the product has been sent back for warranty purposes you won't get stung.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaz
Can't they refund it? Daylight robbery...
the fees were
agency attendance
quarantine entry fee
itf
atf
quarantine
added upto about $500
what i didnt have to pay due to it being returned under warranty was
10% gst
5% duty
last time i brought it in it cost be $1200 from the airport to the car shop with an engine value of about $3000...
clutch on
gearbox on
accessories on
manifolds on
turbo on
looks like by next weekend the engine should be in the car!
nice one mate, how did the 4 port boost solenoid go? did you use turbosmart or MAC ?
its a mac 4 port solenoid, and i'll be using a 3 psi spring.
havent used it yet, i'll see it working for the first time in a week or so hopefully. i really looking forward to being able to set such low power :P
just wondering once you've hit ur mark are u gonna try e85?
because this is a pure street car, and daily driver, i wont be going for e85 for now, and probably not for a long time until its available at most fuel stations.
I don't even know one petrol station that carries it, although i'm sure there are a few.
i think with this turbo and my engine at the moment, it should be able to make the most of this turbo as is on BP ultimate. unless of course my right angle downpipe and high flow cat restrict things too much.
oics, i'm lucky i have 2 near my place n one on the way to work :)
So i'm going e85.
Haven't seen many honda run e85 yet...
Contrats on the build. Just cause your using a 3psi spring does not nessasarily mean boost is going to be able to stay at 3psi, the thought and idea is there, but its not always the case. You've got a good flowing manifold (turbo priority, not WG priority), bigish turbo, it all flows well, so it'll want to boost up and WG venting may not be able to keep up off to the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholzey
:wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Limbo
i did say i haven't seen many, i know u got one but i haven't seen it yet :)
e85 on b16 turbo soon yo
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLO01
one good thing about the manifold, which i thought was a fault when i first got it is that the pipe to the wastegate actually continues on into the manifold to 'catch' the exhaust moving past it, so that should help.
in the beginning i wanted a hy-tech turbo street manifold. those things look like a perfect design to me. but the price was high, and they werent readily available. i would still love one though.. lol
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_pr...B_hytech_P.jpg
im not sure what the lowest stable boost will be, but my b16 with gt3076r had wavy boost till about 12 psi from an 8psi spring. so we will just have to see with this guy :)
although on my break in tune it held boost dead flat on 8psi(you could have drawn it with a ruler) on low cam at 8psi. so high cam will probably be a whole other story though.
Another e85 user here.
That is a top manifold design and the best chance you will get at running gate spring pressure.
I run a RAM horn with a very shollow transition to a 60mm gate with 7psi spring. It holds 9psi on the spring.
You should be fine.
it looks like willowanks new insurance or regulations for test and tune events will let any car that came standard with drivers air bag and 4 wheel disc brakes to run down to 10.00 and no mph limit.
all that is required is the 3 point lap sash seat belt and the standard - helmet, long clothes and enclosed shoes.
so now i am not worried about being booted, so i guess i'll even be able to see what this thing can do on slicks!
the way things are going it looks like it should be together before the new year. but we will see.. i just want to drive my silver bullet again...
serious? i thought sub 12s require a 4 point harness?
Sutututututu
here is the link
http://www.showticksecure.com/willow...T%20011211.pdf
any updates?
E85 here
hmmm lots of waiting..
since my mechanic quit his job i had to find somewhere else to do it. so im waiting for this guys to organise some space or free time to get it put together at a car shop. now i dont know what the hold up is, maybe the shop is just too full all the time or something. who knows.
looks like he will have to put it in at my house in my garage, which isnt ideal lol. but who to trust? oh well. i just hope it happens soon...
i really want to drive my car.. :(
lol
I really friggin want you to drive it too lol
engine is going in finally!
small delay as somehow a rear engine mount bracket went missing.. 160$ later from honda and i have one.
hopefully it iwll be started and on the dyno by the end of the week.
we did notice that i am getting a crack at the base of where my suspension tower meets my chassis rail, which apparantly is relatively common for cars with traction bars..
anyone know a body shop in south brisbane thats anygood? i want to fix crack and reinforce the area on both sides of the car. :)
hows the tune?
not tuned yet. engine is in and should be started for the first time this weekend. so i'll let you guys know how its all going. i might start a new thread instead of adding to this monster lol
I might get this moved to build thread, unless you wanna start fresh to remove some crapola?
I say keep the thread and add some more pics, info and extra comment on eould do it all over again
pushed back till monday now.. lol so i will go see it after work...
hopefully its done!
:P
head to intake manifold had leak due to faulty gasket. you could feel a thin spot. annoying.. sooo out of melbourn comes a stock intake manifold gasket which should arrive on wednesday and hopefully the car can be worked on on friday afternoon.. lol
soon...
gasket that turned up was wrong. the one that looks right has been ordered, and has to come from japan, 2-3 weeks they say...
FFS man don't you just wanna eye-gouge somebody like in '28 days/weeks later'?
Didn't want to just order a intake gasket from a local supplier, may not have been oem but it'd be quicker.
what special gasket is it that it needs to be ordered from jdm land?
well the highway autogroup didnt have one in australia so its gotta come from japan. its just an integra intake manifold gasket. the one with the round hole for coolant flow. i would rather stick with oem as that is what the engine builder has used..
oh, im very patient.... although the sooner the better lol
yes its frustrating, but out of my control im afraid....
JDMyard would probably have one - they are my last resort place before Japan, if i cant find a dealer with one locally...
Gasket arrived today looks correct, so dropped it off!!!!! Yesss, soon soon :)
well problems never end!! haha distributer decided to shit itself, so i had to go home and pick up my old one and chuck it on. lucky i had one handy!!!
bedded and put some time in on the dyno, changed the oil and put a gate pressure 8000rpm tune for now. obviously vtec can come on way earlier for a better power band, but for now its fine just to get some km on the engine.
the boost creep should sort itself out as the boost get increased, so I'm not worried about that at the moment.
tuner said, he's tuned a lot of engines and by the way this one sounds and acts on the dyno, that he is pretty excited about it.. apparently he's been telling people it should make 500, but we'll see :)
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...99942560_n.jpg
so i'll put a few km on the engine then take it back after easter some time for some real boost :)
so 270fwhp at 7psi?
the things not even started yet and it just about made the same as my first setup :)
keep you guys updated...
oh, the engine sounds NA lol pretty cool