did you do a run before and after at the motorplex????
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did you do a run before and after at the motorplex????
I'm getting a set of extractors fitted onto my EG Si next week along with 2" press bent system for around $700. We're using the orig cat.
I've sent the extractors to the ceramic coater, which cost me $250. The mild steel extractors are made by Mercury so nothing like X force in terms of quality and their stainless finish, but still much better than the stock header and plenty good enough for this standard D16 engine of mine. My exhaust guy cleaned up the rough bits with a die grinder prior to the ceramic coating.
He does sell X force headers as well and he is impressed with their fit and finish.
Will let you guys know how I go with my budget system in a week or 2 when it's fitted to my car.
Many others in this forum also say bad things (as in not worth it) about them. Dunno who to trust :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by crx88rb
Where did you get your xforce from? here in Perth?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malenic1981
Many ppl suggested toda header as the best header, but it's not worth getting it for d-series.
It was on the car when I got it, so wouldn't have idea where previous owner got them, but if you go to Xforce web site you can get their WA dealer phone number and get in contact.
No I did a run when I got the car, did 15s flat, my cat-back is nothing special, I think with better cat (and new tyres) I could go into high 14s.:)
TODA, SPOON ect are the best but that comes with good price tag
nothing wrong with getting headers for D series :P. but for a teg R like you have i would go something more up market if you have the mulla $$$Quote:
Originally Posted by civicCXI
hehehe I would as well but a bit short on $$$$, for a price of jap brand headers I can do some other mods that will give me more power, maybe after I get few other things done I would go for SPOON.
If you wanna best one I would recommend you to buy TODA or Spoon.If your budget is low.just buy XFORCE.
dont get xforce 4-1
it makes that boxer sounds because its a shit deisgned header
if u have that on ur ITR ur a dipshit :D
I do have it on my ITR (it was there when I got the car), but for me it's performing good, I did dyno (got good result) went to few tuning shops in Perth to ask if xforce is any good and all of them said it was ok, not as good as TODA or SPOON but better than standard, boxer sound is very good I love it, when I hit vtec it's just sick.
I had few people asking me if I turbocharged my car, so sound is very good and very different to all others.
One day when I have spare $$$$ I will go for Spoon 4-1 but until that day comes I'm happy with xforce.
maybe you have the intake whisle some intake manis make....
a header isnt goin to make your motor sound like its turbo.
have u got a SRI???
SRI-short ram intake, yes apexi
yes i must say it does sound quite good and similar to a small turbo set up. but i think the boxer noise would be your SRI and not the xforce headers
ok,
i got a SRI and belive me my car sounds 100% like a HONDA and nothing else.
I got told by people from Xspeed and Garage R (and some people here on oz honda) that it comes from headers.
Yes its been said in many threads that xforce 4-1 header gives the B's a boxer sound.
What about the x-force 4-2-1's?Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
My x-force 4-2-1's sound grate :pQuote:
Originally Posted by shebangs
What's edelbrock? nver heard about it before
I just fitted 5Zigen 4-2-1 headers $700 FROM edw-R, VERY NICE headers for the price ;)
Does 5Zigen make 4-1?
not to sure if 5Zigen make 4-1 , but these 5Zigen 4-2-1 headers on dc2r should gain around 10kw @ wheels :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Malenic1981
10KW@wheels, that's a lot, is it dyno proven???
Sorry my mistake for syain @ wheels. this guy won Dyno N/A at autosalonQuote:
Originally Posted by spoonfed
that's ok
considering that i lost 25kw at the wheels (shootout mode) by going from a dynodave header to a stock itr header, i think a 10kw gain isn't totally out of the question...
We'd all love to have a set of dynodave's headers but we don't all have the founds :oQuote:
Originally Posted by ginganggooly
Not matter how good Dave's headers are 25K lost sounds a bit weird?
Nothing ells a miss?
If I could get 25K just by installing Dave's headers you'd be sure I'd save my little hard out :p
hehe, very clever. yeah, there is a little more to the story than i let out ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukezen27
i ran 115kw at the wheels on a map optimised for the dynodave header, then with the same map, i ran 91kw at the wheels after bolting up the stock dc2r header. The header threw my a:f curve way off though, so with a re-tune, we'd probably have pulled back another 15kw. Still, that leaves a quite a power deficit.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ginganggooly
that sounds better :)
Sounds like nice gains though so why did you take off Dave's header then?
dave built it as a development model, after testing it out, he felt there were some areas for improvement... so now he's making a new design.
I don't know but 10KW@wheels is a lot, maybe it's high reading dyno???
Im sure the programeable ECU had a lot to do with it :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Malenic1981
from what i've seen, dyno dynamics shootout mode is pretty darn consistant... plus, the fact that the car pulled 115kw and backed it up with a 14.39@96.24 gives the dyno readout a bit of credibility. so- 10kw loss or gain on that dyno sounds pretty believable to me.
Don't get me wrong man but I just think that gain of 10KW@wheels just for headers is a bit too much, but that's just my opinion, I could be very wrong:)
well, we're talking a header, plus a map to suit it...
yeh 10kw JUST for a headers MAYBE a bit much to believe . BUT with a ECU MAP to suit i would say YES :)
ECU MAP sorry i missed that part, reading to fast, 10KW is possible, my bad...
Just got my budget Mercury 4-2-1 headers from the ceramic coater today, will be fitting it to my car later this week with a cat back 2" press bend straight thru system on my EG Si.
http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img79620kb.jpg
sweet mate look great :)
looks good, how much did it cost you, all up with coating??
it looks like a AUDM ITR header.
looks like TODAs are ahead....
What sort of gains have ppl with them had??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malenic1981
Just got the setup installed today at Exhaust World, cost me $730 for the exhaust upgrade (extractors+cat back press steel 2"+middle resonator straight thru & rear muffler+2.5" s/steel tip) and $250 for the ceramic coating so just under $1K all up.
Pulls a lot better esp at the mid to top end, hits the rev limiter with much less effort than before. A lot more responsive at high gears/lower revs situations.
My Si with this setup still lags behind a std Accord Euro Man from a standing start in 1st and 2nd gear, but line ball in 3rd gear and pulls ahead by 4th gear.
i got secret sport headers. they look good. but i doubt i gain much from them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...IMG_2590_w.jpg
Just a bit of an eye opener for those who think JDM = be all and end all.
note: the crack to the left.
what crack???
he ment to the right, where the weld is, you can see a little crack, would not expect that from any big name brands
That crack is a result of incorect fitment.
The support bracket at the rear need to be used.
Other reasons for header cracking is exessive tension in exhaust system.
If the system does not simply hang in place & must be forced one way or another to assemble, cracks will result somewhere, not always in the header, but this is a place that cracks can occur with poor fitment.
It is not a problem with the product, more the user.
hey im just saying.
Some people think they are invincible cause they are JDM blingin. Id imagine half the cracked headers out there are a result of incorrect application, not incorrect build quality. Just a myth id highlight.
Ok, I was starting to think that it's wasn't original toda product, heared there is lots of copies around with toda, spoon ect writing on them.
I'd be inclined to say that people should take a look at what headers the cars that are running the numbers are using. I keep seeing dtr, smsp, an-r and in oz, dyno dave...
It's rare to see a 'jdm' header on the cars in the sub-12's.
so i have been hunting for some over here in Perth and there isnt much to get. the best so far for me is x-force and have heard great things. only thing is they only make D series headers for SOHC. they have a B series for a DOHC but of course its a b series and you would think it wouldn't fit on a D series engine. now i asked the x-force distributors over here and also the exhaust fitter who will be doing it for me and both seem to say it will fit but there may be some difference in the bolts positions and the size of the headers from the block to the cat. apart from being made for a B series is there any other reason why i cant get there headers. cause this is all i got
Quote:
Originally Posted by crx88rb
I really can't see why any competent exhaust fitter won't be able to modify it to suit if there is indeed slight differences in the bolt patterns.
Give Pete at Exhaust World in newcastle st, perth a call and he'll sort it all out for you. I got mine headers and full 2" system done by him and I'm v v happy. He sells Xforce also and his prices are one of the best in town.
why not use the SOHC D series headers? they bolt up the same and thats all that matters.
its not like the headers are specifically for SOHC d's and not DOHC d's.
i think the engine series they are designed for might be little more important lol. ie: the B series headers arent going to bolt up.
basically forget about how many cams the engine has cos its irrelevant in this case
yeh, i just cant believe its so hard to find what i am looking for
dont worry i went through the same thing. but from what i've been told from many ppl on a number of forums who have tried, any d series header should fit
In regards to TODA headers, is there a choice for size? Should I get 2.25 or 2.5"?
Also, anyone ever 'upgraded' from X-Force headers to TODA ones? Any difference?
what extractor and catback u got?Quote:
Originally Posted by EG30
I saw that hitech headers review. I reckon theyve fudged up the results somehow. You cant get a 51hp atw gain from headers especially on their own on a NA engine. Headers raise power through ability to flow more air out of the engine, if at least the intake side isnt upgraded they can only restore power the factory headers are restricting. To get 51hp atw gain (45odd kw at the fly) from headers you would need a v8 supercar or something that has its 200thousand dollar engine but standart ford au xr8 headers or something on it and then change to race spec as the headers in this instance act as the bottle neck of the system. An extreme view is like there is no point having a 3inch exhaust and everything if you have a muffler from a diahatsu move on the back! Headers are the same, they will give gains as the factory one isnt perfect but in reality it cant change the power that the engine block can make at the flywheel.
The best way to view it is that the power we see from an engine is the power at the wheels, forget flywheel. However, flywheel is the max you could get at the wheels in a perfect world. If you have a 160hp engine (b16a for example) then you add the intake and exhaust system you lose a little bit of power from restriction. You then make it spin a clutch and flywheel and axles and wheels etc. This is why you see closer to 120 hp at the wheels. Without going inside the engine or adding a turbocharger you can only EVER get the power toward 160hp never above and you do this by lessening the magnitude of the restriction that is placed on it.
Therefore if you have say a b16 and it has 120 hp at the wheels and you put make it as efficient as you can with lighter components and less restriction outside you will still have less than 160hp at the wheels, convincingly. To have headers jump an output to pretty much what the engine has on an engine dyno is ridiculous and impossible.
I want to know what the go was with that review.
DC headers and x force headers seem the more popular reasonable priced headers for a honda.
Scott
Made in Hong Kong
So far in testing we have obtained a 13kw atw gain on a B20.
With 12.5:1 comp, running AEM engine management.
yes they can change the power made at the flywheel. i would wager that an engine makes more power with a well designed header than with none at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by crx51
i think you may be confused between power lost as a result of drivetrain etc. as opposed to power lost as a result of poor flow characteristics in manifolds
lower power readings at the wheels as compared to at the flywheel are a result of parasitic losses of power. ie: power used to move certain components.
the exhaust system onm the other hand affects the power made by affecting the ability for an engine to flow gases through the head, thus how much power is made at the flywheel.
its not a case of having a bare engine, with no intake manifold or exhaust manifold, which makes X amount of power and then everything you add to it is a loss on power. the manifolds are a vital component of the operating engine.
Fair call. What i was trying to get at is that the base engine is where the power is, and you can add things to the outside and you will get gains but it is due to these components being better than those that were benchtested standard. There is still no way that a perfect set of headers even could give 50whp on a 1.6 or 1.8 NA engine. No way in the world. But yes you are right i included too much in the losses incurred on the engine's flywheel power and yes i generalised a bit. Stupid of me,
yeah, i agree. it is very hard to believe such a percentage increase from just a header.
maybe toda can explain it to us ..... i see it as being impossible . 15hp even , is MASSIVE .... well on an h22a anywayz, not too sure about civics n such.
where do i get EDELBROCK an Dc header??hw much??
btw where do EDELBROCK and Dc made from??
I just had my 5zigen headers ($700) fitted and boy she goes hard. Massive midrange difference, top end has improved aswell. Not to mention the fact the engine is much louder too (not the exhaust). I would have prefered the TODA ones, but for $1500 couldn't justify. Didn't want to go xforce on the headers either, too cheap and nasty. xforce muffler for me is fine as it doesn't effect performance (not compared to the cost of real mugen twin loop at $1500).
So my current system is injen 1450 front mount CAI, 5zigen 4-2-1's, high flow cat, 2.25" cat back and xforce twin loop. Sounds crazy, but most importantly goes hard. s200 next week! :)
Matt
is 5zigen good???i planning to get a header tooo..budget around 7-800 any peeps can recommend??
Just changed from JDM 4-1 to TODA 4-2-1... HUGE difference... torque power .... drivablilty revability.. like night and day...! and whats just as impressive is the clearance... atleast 40mm difference between the JDM 4-1 and the TODA! So that peace of mind that your not going to smash in your new headers, is in my opinion another factor as well as the obvious perfomance gains to shell out the extra $$$..!!
Picked the TODA's up for a bargain too @ $1100 brand new!!
Can't say enough about these headers!!!:thumbsup:
TODA headers are awesome :). From what OB said of them i'm expecting the same result from my car once there install. Since im changing from an Xforce 4-1 into a TODA 4-2-1 the difference in power should be dramatic.
yeah im sure TODA are that good, but to0 expensive :( not many of us could afford o spend 1100+ just for a set of extractors! lol
Agreed, there is definitely a world of difference between good and excellent headers. It was day and night for me too switching from JDM 4-1 to Buddyclub 4-2-1 race headers.
how much are buddy clubs?
Just a tad less then Toda, $1500ish vs $1200ish.
thats not too bad then... might save for some buddyclubs... would u recomend?
http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=699Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus
is 5zigen headers good??
i belive stainless steel..Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus
Did anyone know SMSP? I heard many good comments. But it is too expensive.
I was running JDM 4-1 and now Buddyclub 4-2-1 :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by barefootbonzai
My Hondata s100 its untuned , its only running basic mapping at the moment , we'll see how it goes when i got time to go to dynotuning.