B18b Turbo & B18c2 Turbo

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Originally Posted by integrity

yeah but engines weith VVT-I or MIVEC variable valve timing that come standard with turbo are made to work "WITH" a turbo.
honda motors arent.
our V-TEC motor is made to kick in with our own type of boost which is V-TEC but overall the GSI doesnt have that restriction ... its naturally aspirated with no V-TEC so it can continue going up in the revs with no extra boost whatsoever.
the vtir motor is a good motor no doubt about it ... but in terms of turboing a n/a motor out of the 2 i would go the GSI ....
they both arent meant to be turboed YES but the gsi has no hold back ...
even though it has been assumed a VTIR will pulll more power how long can the engine last being put under the pressure of V-TEC and boost?

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VTEC(not V-TEC) doesn't boost anything. It's not it's "own type of boost". You're switching to a different cam profile. That's ALL. The different cam profile is designed to flow better up high and make more power up there.

The ONLY legitimate argument that one could try to make about the b18b being better for boost is the lower compression ratio which makes it less prone to detonation. Not long ago, the common place thought was that high comp was bad, low comp was good. Now, people are starting to see the light.

The B18c is a superior platform to boost on in every possible way.

no waht i meant was when VTEC kicks in it forces more pressure onto the head ...
if you force more pressure on the head and now adding in forced induction to try to make it work harder then its capable of doing in high revs it could cause wear and tear.
im not putting down the Vtir motor i dont have anything against it but everyone sees things differently and i believe the best way to turbo is no VTEC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by integrity

no waht i meant was when VTEC kicks in it forces more pressure onto the head ...
if you force more pressure on the head and now adding in forced induction to try to make it work harder then its capable of doing in high revs it could cause wear and tear.
im not putting down the Vtir motor i dont have anything against it but everyone sees things differently and i believe the best way to turbo is no VTEC

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how exactly is it forcing more pressure on the head?

what about all those turbo cars running more agressive cams that some how make way more power even though they're "forcing more perssure on the head"?

Further more, if all that extra pressure at high revs is so bad for the head of the vtec engine, imagine the non vtec engine with all the pressure from the turbo on the inferior designed head. It must really be getting damaged.

Oddly, it's rarely the head that suffers any damage when things go wrong with a f/i set up.

Just out of curiosity, are you just repeating what someone once told you? The stuff you're saying really doesn't make much sense with how vtec works. I know lots of people go around spewing bs to people that don't know much of whats going on, then those people take it as fact.

i thought this thread was settled that the b18c is 'stronger' not 'better', but STRONGER than the b18b?!

Like to prove it down the race track? B18C turbo will own any b18B turbo unless you are comparing a fully built b18B running ridiculous amounts of boost vs a stock b18c on boost. Stock vs stock, vtec will own hands down.

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Originally Posted by integrity

i believe the best way to turbo is no VTEC

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wow, so very wrong, yet so convinced you are right...

i admire your tenacity.

well its up to everybody what they believe but i still see the gsi the better alternative .
vtir has more power YES but in terms of forcing induction i still believe the gsi can take more boost and be less of a headache if tuned right

Get Out Of My Thread You Ba5tards

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Originally Posted by integrity

well its up to everybody what they believe but i still see the gsi the better alternative .
vtir has more power YES but in terms of forcing induction i still believe the gsi can take more boost and be less of a headache if tuned right

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that perfectly fine that you believe that, but would you please tell us why you think that. I'm really curious to see your reasoning.


And yes, technically the b18b may be able to take more psi of boost than the b18c out of the same turbo set up before detonation, however, psi isn't everything.

(*warning, I'm about to use arbitrary numbers to make a point, don't quote me that such and such set up will actually make these numbers*)

Lets say we have a b18b and a b18c, both running on a gt28rs, all extra modifications are the same.

Because of it's much more efficient, etc, at say 9 psi, we may get 120 extra hp over stock.

The b18b, because of it's lower compression ratio, can probably be bumped a few psi higher before we're running into issues, but because of it's lower efficiency, lower comp ratio, etc at 12 psi, it may only make 90 hp over stock.

Basically, the point is, the b18c may not be able to take quite as many psi, but it does much better things with that extra air. Also, because of the stronger internals, it will support more hp(because after all, the strength of the internals are more decided on how much extra power it can take then extra psi).

(*end warning about arbitrary numbers. The numbers may not be real, the principal is*)

why doesnt someone actually go out and put a turbo on a stock vtec and see the difference for yaself, seriously i believe most people here are just too scared to try it. Notice the only ones debating about it dont even have their teg turbocharged, Myself and Qball on the other hand are enjoying out turbo tegs and laughing at all these petty arguements lol. Seriously guys, were all honda fans and some of us love boost, so who cares which one goes faster, just go out and get it for f#@k sake. Just make sure you get the right person to tune the thing or the b18b could quite easily beat the b18c. :D

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Originally Posted by GSI-PSI

why doesnt someone actually go out and put a turbo on a stock vtec and see the difference for yaself, seriously i believe most people here are just too scared to try it. Notice the only ones debating about it dont even have their teg turbocharged, Myself and Qball on the other hand are enjoying out turbo tegs and laughing at all these petty arguements lol. Seriously guys, were all honda fans and some of us love boost, so who cares which one goes faster, just go out and get it for f#@k sake. Just make sure you get the right person to tune the thing or the b18b could quite easily beat the b18c. :D

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I've turboed several b16a's. Not a b18c, but a stock vtec none the less.

I have nothing against turbo b18b's, I just would like to see any reasonable explination as to why people think that it's a better engine to boost then the b18c.

buy a skyline and join sau, will make a few people happy :D

otherwise, b18c.

my b18c setup will be ready soon my setup is similar to q balls but diffrent brands used,see how i go

will keep you people updated on the new turbo b18c on the forums

-nuke-

-nuke-

b18a??

-nuke-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by string

A B18A/B with a big turbo cam designed to make power up to around 8000 rpm will rip a B18C a new one. More capacity means more torque means more power and less lag.

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I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, but aren't both motors 1.8L in capacity:rolleyes:

seriously.... there is like more then 20 kw diffrence with the b18b and b18c in stock form right? isnt it common sense that the b18c will make more power with the same setup used for both engines?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by string

Far cheaper to buy in the first place, far easier to replace parts if/when they kick the bucket. More torque. Longer gears for less no traction. Did I say cheaper?

Until you get into the range of rebuilding internals and going for huge hp numbers, cost to speed ratio will always be won by the b18a/b.

If we are taking out costs, of course the b18c is going to win out. You are revving 20% higher, so there is 20% more power for the same torque right there. And that 20% extra redline will allow you to use a turbo which doens't hit full boost until say, 5500 rpm. On a B18a/b this would be death and would not be very fun at all.

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well, at least someone is making an effort.

Cost wise, fair enough, it may be more economical. There are a lot of people basically saying that it's a better engine from a technical standpoint. That's what I'd love to hear about.

-nuke-

-nuke-

-nuke-

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Originally Posted by 2MPRSS

my b18c setup will be ready soon my setup is similar to q balls but diffrent brands used,see how i go

will keep you people updated on the new turbo b18c on the forums

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Um yer cool but did you miss the point when i said to compare a stock b18c lol

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Originally Posted by string

When you take into account modifications, then they prety much become the same thing, except the b18a/b will be a pig down low since it doesn't have the low cam to keep things nice.

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Haha you cant be serious can ya? A pig down low....erm if only you knew. Yeah sure4 it would be a pig down low if ya using the wrong size turbo and it takes forever to spool up but mate if people were wise they'd use a smaller size turbo etc etc etc. I honestly dont think a b18b would be quicker than a b18c using the exact same setup as what ive got but seriously guys, all ya doin is making up alot of crap to try proving a point thats already been proven.

EXACT SAME TURBO SETUP WITH BOTH HEALTHY ENGINES THE B18C HAS BEEN PROVEN TO HAVE MORE POWER ON THE DYNO

but get a b18c or b18b with high km thats tired and your kw will drop. (as this was the case with my first engine)

I have not once said in this thread that a b18b will have more kw than a b18c and there are definate facts that the b18c should be a stronger option. But at the end of the day when ya on the track its down to the driver when the lights go GREEN :cool:

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Originally Posted by GSI-PSI

Um yer cool but did you miss the point when i said to compare a stock b18c lol

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what point?a stock b18c has more power then a b18b doesnt?whats ur point again didnt understand?

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Originally Posted by 2MPRSS

what point?a stock b18c has more power then a b18b doesnt?whats ur point again didnt understand?

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the point I was trying to make in that regards is that the b18c, given an identical turbo set up, will show a greater increase in power than the b18b on the dyno

saxman are u and gsi psi same person?i was refering to him but again thanks for ur awnser and thats what i really ment on my previous post,sumone should close this thread

-nuke-

I think your all missing the point of reality, and your all trying to make justification of internet myths

Fact the same turbo kit, with the same turbo, with the same ECU, regardless of how much boost, with the same settings the b18c engine will ALWAYS Make more power and torque throughout the whole rev range than the b18a/b period.

Hell even if you design the perfect matched setup for the b18a/b engine with a correctly sized turbo to suit the engine, put that setup on a b18c engine and it WILL make more power

Fact I’ve tuned many b18a/b setups and even more b18c setups, the b18c wins every time. You can talk and say what you like, but the b18c engine on the same boost level will always have more power than a b18a/b. As for the b18a/b holding more boost than a b18c that’s crap also stupid internet myths ! Both engines on a stock form I wouldn’t run more than 14psi of boost, they both have the same upper limit to the amount of boost you can run.



Regards James

-nuke-

this topic was covered in hot4s not to long ago. a basic rule of thumb is. if you have a motor that has 100kw and the other has 120kw. the second engine will always gonna be 20kw ahead. this is going on the fact that u do the same mods to both motors. there has to be a freakish occurance that will allow the first motor to gain 20kw without a similar change happening to the second motor.

The B18A/B will always make more torque below say, 5800rpm- FALSE !!!
That is not true !! stop quoting internet bull-crap !

How many engines have you built? How many engines have you tuned ? how many b18b have you built how many b18c have you built, how many turbo Honds have you worked on ! how many custom turbo’s have you designed, how many manifolds have you back to back tested, how much research and design have you done please tell me its more than 100 cars and they I might start to give you credit for what your saying, quoting what other internet donkey’s say is nothing more internet MYTH.

b/w that graph you qouted is nothing more than data plotted on excel ! I wouldn’t trust that data with a pinch of salt !

FACT = iv done the testing, iv done the research, iv done the back to back testing, iv designed kits, iv tuned 100’s of setups Australia wide and the b18c always comes out on top. Do the research your self ! and please prove me wrong, until then my data colleted from years of experience stands above and beyond anything you say.


James waves the bull-crap flag to internet myth !

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Originally Posted by jimmeh

this topic was covered in hot4s not to long ago. a basic rule of thumb is. if you have a motor that has 100kw and the other has 120kw. the second engine will always gonna be 20kw ahead. this is going on the fact that u do the same mods to both motors. there has to be a freakish occurance that will allow the first motor to gain 20kw without a similar change happening to the second motor.

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Thats so ture in every way ! you can't turn water into wine !! and you can't make a donkey of a engine into a tinger !!

Regards James

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Originally Posted by string

You are wrong.

When you take into account modifications, then they prety much become the same thing, except the b18a/b will be a pig down low since it doesn't have the low cam to keep things nice.


The B18A/B will always make more torque below say, 5800rpm. You cannot argue this. A Cam designed for peak torque much lower plus extra capacity will always win out in the lower regions.

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You have some nerve telling James that he is wrong when ya cant even remember ya own lies. The top paragraph shows an earlier statement you made about a b18b being laggy down low and now ya saying it will always make more power down low.

MAKE UP YA MIND WILL YA

Careful James, with quotes like that he'll put you out of business ;)

I definately wouldnt take my car to "strings workshop" if he had one, cos he'd try to STRING you along into the internet myth world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmeh

this topic was covered in hot4s not to long ago. a basic rule of thumb is. if you have a motor that has 100kw and the other has 120kw. the second engine will always gonna be 20kw ahead. this is going on the fact that u do the same mods to both motors. there has to be a freakish occurance that will allow the first motor to gain 20kw without a similar change happening to the second motor.

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I totally agree with this :thumbsup:
How hard is it to understand basic mathematics??...
come on folks.. this is 2 unit maths back in high school...
It's just logic...given the same setup, i.e same turbo, same boost etc...given that this application will add an additional 45Kw to your engine. We'll take the results of the 2 engine mentioned above.

100Kw + 45Kw = 145Kw...
120Kw + 45Kw = 165Kw...
Therefore the 120Kw will achieve more power..
Therefore the 120Kw is greater than the 100Kw...

Thus...
B18C = 120Kw
B18B = 100Kw

B18C > B18B

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out the above results.

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Originally Posted by Da1nONLY

I totally agree with this :thumbsup:
How hard is it to understand basic mathematics??...
come on folks.. this is 2 unit maths back in high school...
It's just logic...given the same setup, i.e same turbo, same boost etc...given that this application will add an additional 45Kw to your engine. We'll take the results of the 2 engine mentioned above.

100Kw + 45Kw = 145Kw...
120Kw + 45Kw = 165Kw...
Therefore the 120Kw will achieve more power..
Therefore the 120Kw is greater than the 100Kw...

Thus...
B18C = 120Kw
B18B = 100Kw

B18C > B18B

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out the above results.

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Shit! Thats it!

I never knew modelling engine output was soooo easy !

Thanks for clearing it up for everyone.

Do the Honda Engineers know about this formula?

I think the Mods need to implement a points system whereby you need to "earn" the right to post in the Tech Forums.

i just realise my statement sounds messed up. im not saying that if mod both motors the same then at the end of of your gonna be 20kw ahead. i meant to say if u start of with a better motor then your always gona be ahead, granted you do the same mods. (not necessary by 20kw cos the two motors will respond diff to each mod) I hope that make more sense

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Originally Posted by ProECU

This thread is almost as painfull as listening to Tinkerbell's rants.

almost...

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sif bag tink, hes mad!!!!!!!

the real question, of course, is what if we're using stock injectors on these turbo set ups.

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Originally Posted by saxman

the real question, of course, is what if we're using stock injectors on these turbo set ups.

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you may as well start another thread

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Originally Posted by GSI-PSI

you may as well start another thread

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it was a joke
re:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32015

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saxman

it was a joke
re:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32015

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lmaooooo

the vtir produces more power then the gsi bottom line
however some people reading this thread own vtir `s and gsi`s
it is up to them to do what they like to their motor
some people might go all out and do internals on either motors
the vtir is a good motor no doubt about it
it has more power yes but some people might decide to turbo non vtec engines instead understand?
just let the people decide with what they want to do with there own motors.
both engines are good to turbo ... thats it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by integrity

the vtir produces more power then the gsi bottom line
however some people reading this thread own vtir `s and gsi`s
it is up to them to do what they like to their motor
some people might go all out and do internals on either motors
the vtir is a good motor no doubt about it
it has more power yes but some people might decide to turbo non vtec engines instead understand?
just let the people decide with what they want to do with there own motors.
both engines are good to turbo ... thats it

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agreed.

but the bottom line is that if i personally had to choose between a B18C and a B18B to turbo charge,

i would choose the B18C, for the reasons i have stated.

that's it.

oh, and so would 76.62% of the people who responded to this poll...

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

but the bottom line is that if i personally had to choose between a B18C and a B18B to turbo charge,

i would choose the B18C, for the reasons i have stated.

that's it.

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lol you always have to chip ya 2cents worth in. I think we all know your opinion by now tinky

yeah, i have a probelm with the way people try to have the last say and try to think that they can change the intention of the post with some soft "ohh, let people decide what to do with their own engines" wimpy crap.

when the actual post is about "if there is a choice"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

yeah, i have a probelm with the way people try to have the last say and try to think that they can change the intention of the post with some soft "ohh, let people decide what to do with their own engines" wimpy crap.

when the actual post is about "if there is a choice"

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Well if you dont like "Whimpy Crap" then why dont you put your money where your mouth is and go turbo a vtec. Dont speak 2 me about whimpy crap...

i have no need for turbo...

Then you have no need to open your mouth. By the way those times in my signature was with an old almost blown engine running on 7psi and the gearbox at the time only got into 3rd that one run.

owww its tinkerbell with such a gay name

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Originally Posted by GSI-PSI

old almost blown engine

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gotta love those B18B's ;)

the engine was almost blown before i turbocharged it. lmao

well, your 13.8 is to be comended then :thumbsup:

lucky you could swap it all straight over, and that kinda explains why you are such a die-hard B18B supporter... it has worked well for you...

tinkerbell this issuee is sorted
the end of the day the owner chooses which car he wants to turbo
if me and gsi-psi are such b18b supporters what does that make you ???
the only reason your a b18c supporter is cause you have one
noone needs to hear your crap anymore ... go back a few pages and you might see that people find you annoying...
seriously stop the talking

the last thing i will say is that i dont have a B18C...

the guy that started the thread has made a choice now and picking up a integra vti-r on friday and he will be turbocharging it so case closed

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Originally Posted by ProECU

I think the Mods need to implement a points system whereby you need to "earn" the right to post in the Tech Forums.

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I dont think that's the issue, I think you should be able to START threads, but only people with cred should be able to respond to it.

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Originally Posted by yourfather

I dont think that's the issue, I think you should be able to START threads, but only people with cred should be able to respond to it.

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All well and good in theory, but there are many people on here that have a wealth of knowledge but rarely post, therefore how do they have 'cred'?:)

A B18b has a lower compression ratio of 9.2:1 which is better suited to boost, you can run 10psi easy on stock internals, without the hassles of variable valve timing you can also run cheaper engine management systems. The case is open and shut, you can run more boost, more easily, more cheaply with a GSi over a VTiR or Type R. This is an argument of economics and cost benefit analysis, you will always be ahead with a GSi as you're starting with a motor that is going to cost you less of an outlay to begin with.

Trust me, I've been down this road, turbo on variable valve timing with after market ECU is a major pain in the arse, you're better off starting with a non-VVT engine. Why would you spend $2-$3k on an ECU to run VVT when you can spend $800 on an ECU that will handle non-VVT just fine? That alone solves the argument.

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Originally Posted by Integra-GSi

A B18b has a lower compression ratio of 9.2:1 which is better suited to boost, you can run 10psi easy on stock internals, without the hassles of variable valve timing you can also run cheaper engine management systems. The case is open and shut, you can run more boost, more easily, more cheaply with a GSi over a VTiR or Type R. This is an argument of economics and cost benefit analysis, you will always be ahead with a GSi as you're starting with a motor that is going to cost you less of an outlay to begin with.

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O rly?

Very helpful post

Regards getfkdm8

dat was a strong bump

9 years hehe

Better to contribute than start a new thread. Long term perhaps not as strong, short term cheaper. You be the judge...

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Originally Posted by NeedVtec

O rly?

Very helpful post

Regards getfkdm8

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This

Also prices on powerful ecus have tumbled. Nowadays you can find tuners doing 1.2k for tune n s300 chip compared to 1.2k alone for a power fc.

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Originally Posted by Integra-GSi

A B18b has a lower compression ratio of 9.2:1 which is better suited to boost, you can run 10psi easy on stock internals, without the hassles of variable valve timing you can also run cheaper engine management systems. The case is open and shut, you can run more boost, more easily, more cheaply with a GSi over a VTiR or Type R. This is an argument of economics and cost benefit analysis, you will always be ahead with a GSi as you're starting with a motor that is going to cost you less of an outlay to begin with.

Trust me, I've been down this road, turbo on variable valve timing with after market ECU is a major pain in the arse, you're better off starting with a non-VVT engine. Why would you spend $2-$3k on an ECU to run VVT when you can spend $800 on an ECU that will handle non-VVT just fine? That alone solves the argument.

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VVT?
$2-3k for an ecu?

you really dont have a clue hey

gsi engine is definitely the best engine in the market atm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Integra-GSi

A B18b has a lower compression ratio of 9.2:1 which is better suited to boost, you can run 10psi easy on stock internals, without the hassles of variable valve timing you can also run cheaper engine management systems. The case is open and shut, you can run more boost, more easily, more cheaply with a GSi over a VTiR or Type R. This is an argument of economics and cost benefit analysis, you will always be ahead with a GSi as you're starting with a motor that is going to cost you less of an outlay to begin with.

Trust me, I've been down this road, turbo on variable valve timing with after market ECU is a major pain in the arse, you're better off starting with a non-VVT engine. Why would you spend $2-$3k on an ECU to run VVT when you can spend $800 on an ECU that will handle non-VVT just fine? That alone solves the argument.

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What VVT?

gsi's go for 13k

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Originally Posted by carayan

VVT?
$2-3k for an ecu?

you really dont have a clue hey

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VTEC same stuff yeah... just more correct acronym for variable valve timing... not so straight forward with a lot of aftermarket ECUs.

s300 is around 700-800. mind blown.

Simple explanation can't be stuffed, increase, valve lift and duration, not special to Honda. Allows different valve timing and lift at different speeds. Non VVT same valve timing all the time, less performance in theory as valves always run in same timing for open/shut, less aggressive cams also generally, but more simple to operate. Easy to get running on anything.... More complex engine, more complex ECU generally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

First made by Porsche in the 1950s so yeah...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Integra-GSi

Simple explanation can't be stuffed, increase, valve lift and duration, not special to Honda. Allows different valve timing and lift at different speeds. Non VVT same valve timing all the time, less performance in theory as valves always run in same timing for open/shut, less aggressive cams also generally, but more simple to operate. Easy to get running on anything.... More complex engine, more complex ECU generally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

First made by Porsche in the 1950s so yeah...

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mind = blown

A hondata S300 will work for vtec and non-vtec motors. approx cost $650-800. Even a S100 or S200 is fine and they're cheaper.

Tuning a vtec vs non-vtec pricing wise is pretty much the same..... maybe $100-200 difference??

vtec>non-vtec

end thread./

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Integra-GSi

Simple explanation can't be stuffed, increase, valve lift and duration, not special to Honda. Allows different valve timing and lift at different speeds. Non VVT same valve timing all the time, less performance in theory as valves always run in same timing for open/shut, less aggressive cams also generally, but more simple to operate. Easy to get running on anything.... More complex engine, more complex ECU generally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

First made by Porsche in the 1950s so yeah...

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i'm not asking what VVT is, I'm asking why you think VTEC is the same as VVT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Integra-GSi

Simple explanation can't be stuffed, increase, valve lift and duration, not special to Honda. Allows different valve timing and lift at different speeds. Non VVT same valve timing all the time, less performance in theory as valves always run in same timing for open/shut, less aggressive cams also generally, but more simple to operate. Easy to get running on anything.... More complex engine, more complex ECU generally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

First made by Porsche in the 1950s so yeah...

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Even with the shitty VCT of the nissan engines (late sr20det, r33/r34 rb26dett) they had better mid range, top end and response than their non VCT counterparts. See MINE'S GTR.

To say that b18b is better than their VTEC counter parts...lol, maybe in cost outlay when you are rebuilding an engine from top to bottom with balanced and forged internals with aggressive race cams with no concern for daily drivabilty. But 99% of turbo b series are not built like that so your case is extremely limited since a stronger better high flowing VTEC head that can accommodate a wider power range is only a few hundred dollars more.

Yes, simply a cost outlay exorcise, didn't know exact cost of Honda ECUs so pulling on Toyota knowledge a bit their. Perhaps a very narrow example. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.

I don't even know anymore, you need to teach yourself to shut the fuk up

http://d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net...9829519698.jpg

Dc2 vtir turbo! :)

JDM FD2r turbo