Quote:
Originally Posted by lspower
Written and authorised by the People For John Howards Dodgey Fuel Propaganda
I mean seriously dude have you asked them about becomming an official spokes person instead of Dick Johnson?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lspower
Written and authorised by the People For John Howards Dodgey Fuel Propaganda
I mean seriously dude have you asked them about becomming an official spokes person instead of Dick Johnson?
They've already announced the changeoverQuote:
Originally Posted by b20b
http://www.v8supercar.com.au/news/la...nd=M&gid=21502
I can't believe that young people can sound like such a pack of old farts!
forgive us for being a little sceptical on this new product. With what I have read there is a bit of a mixed responce to this fuel. (i prob have not read enough missed the v8 announcement)
now where's my slippers :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by EfiOz
How come some people using Extreme with E5 will notice a more noisier engine whereas some seem to think it is smoother? :D
Actually I'm quite surprised that people felt a power difference going from Optimax to Extreme - may be the power increase was from the E5 and not from the 2 more RON resistance to knock? haha!
But seriously, I don't even trust myself when it comes to seat-of-the-pants, all I will trust is the dyno or at the least the maximum g-force I pull in my G-Tech in a certain gear. Which unfortunately is sitting at a friend's house so I haven't tried it yet.... :(
Have now used Caltex Vortex (95- or 96?), Shell Optimax 98 and Shell 95 so far, all of them doesn't feel that different to me. Note I'm not saying there is no gains/losses just that I couldn't feel it. I got to try Mobil Synergy 8000 next, now you can buy $5.0 of stuff and get the 4c/Litre off. So basically, its like getting $5.0 of free stuff everytime you fill up :D
i tried Optimax Extreme, and it "seems" to make a slight difference in power, but more of a difference in economy, not much, but enough to notice. Not enough to justify the price difference though. My car uses a JDM engine, but was tuned to Mobil 8000. Maybe a retune to Extreme 100 might make more of a difference.
yeh same bro my mecch said to use it cause my eng is JDM as well..and over there supposdly high octane..when i do my tuning of the ecu ill tune it extreme..but still want to find out if there is any cons about it
good work to efioz. Yes I have tried the vortex...but the fuel economy is not as good as optimax. The oct100 perhaps is nosier for "bolt on" modifications or after market ecu like mine. Some cars has more restriction on how far the ecu will ajust the fuel ratio/ignition timming. Generally speaking the more smoother means a more ignition timming retard.
I even tried on mercedez E200 with the octact100, and it seems sharper and more response. And that the current 2005 september model. I do not hold any biased view but just for mine own modified LS and E200 Benze.
2nd tank fillup today and I can feel more torque in the lower rev range (under 3000rpm) which the prelude lacks. Its not HUGE, but it is noticeable :)
Don't know if I should be using the stuff, but the car seems pretty smooth now. Although I was using BP Premium for the past 3 weeks since they ran out of Ultimate - So maybe the difference will be bigger going from 95 or less rather than 98....
My 2 cents :)
good work
The following is direct from the Honda website. It doesn't specifially mention the Prelude but it does say on the bottom that it has not been tested hence there is a risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creative
Ethanol
The following Honda vehicles may be operated using fuel containing up to 10% ethanol (E10):
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+hon...illing_car.jpg
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifAccord
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2003 onwards
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifAccord Euro
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2003 onwards
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifCivic (including Hybrid)
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2004 onwards
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifCR-V
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2003 onwards
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifIntegra
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2002 onwards
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifJazz
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2004 onwards
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifMDX
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2003 onwards
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifOdyssey
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2004 onwards
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/blip_black.gifS2000
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/spacer.gif2004 onwards
Other Honda vehicles were not designed or tested with E10 and therefore the long-term effects are not proven.
Ethanol contains less energy value than petrol. In theory, some loss of power and fuel economy (possibly 2-3%) may occur when using E10.
For further information, please refer to your vehicle owner's manual, or telephone the Honda Customer Hotline on (freecall) 1800 804 954.
Man you guys make me want to try a tank soon!
I was actually thinking if it is possible the Ethanol made the car running a bit more leaner than usual, hence the power increase?
I've always noticed that running some particular higher octane fuel the car runs richer during dyno runs, although low throttle is always balanced out to around 14.5 to 1 by narrow band O2 sensor... I would imagine the LATTER is responsible for the increase mileage with higher octane fuel since they have high calorific value (higher density) and as such the ECU will use less of it during cruise mode.
Don't think it'll affect full throttle that much though if you know what I mean.
you o2 sensor is ignored on full throttle so yeah it will still pump the same amount of fuel no matter what unless it knocks then it will retart
I'm gonna boycott until i find out it won't screw up my car
Limbo - well in some cars the ECU and the O2 can still detect and work together over a longer term to try and adjust even full throttle air fuel ratio but not really sure on the Hondas.. I always thought Honda's run pretty good already from what I've seen on the Dyno Graphs, mid 12's more or less. Any leaner and you lose instant throttle response and increase heat, although there's slightly more power as well..
Well I think my next few tanks is going to be Extreme 100 - hopefully won't stuff up the Euro ! Wish me luck :D
The only problem with G-Tech testing is that you have a gap of a few days in between tests in order to empty your tank... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Omotesando
anyone wanna start a BBQ session? this fuel gives me lots of flame..hahaha...
I am having my high school 20 year reunion this sat. I am also looking forward for OZHONDA to start a bbq for members-2005 prechristmass= lunch, for SYDNEY members. . I will support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
This is not a problem at all if it is not a 'timed' run also I'm ultra patient! - I was suggesting about max G-Force pulled during in gear acceleration, which gives a good consistent reading everytime as long as the G-Tech / G-Sensor in RSM is levelled correctly.
If the G-Tech meter has 3D X/Y/Z accelerometers and automatically calibrates and calculates even better.
i.e. when I was driving my S15 with small mods, but no ECU, full tank, at least 2nd tank of new fuel being tested (no point putting in 1 tank with remains of other fuel IMO?). Put Mobil Synergy 8000 in, consistently pulled 0.02G in 3rd gear more than Optimax 98 and BP Ultimate 98. Note this is std ECU.
When tuned with PowerFC, Mobil Synergy 8000 could take more timing as well, hence more power. I find Optimax 98 better than Ultimate 98 in Turbo car, I wouldn't be surprised if in the EURO Accord things would be different again?
We or I should say I just don't understand how the fuels work!!
Got to rely on the equipment to test!
The only issue with G sensor test with EURO is - not really sure if it is sensitive enough to pick up any differences between the fuels.
When the Synergy 8000 pulled barely 0.02G more than other fuels on the previous S15 200sx, it was obvious already from 'seat of pants'.
I honestly can't feel much between Vortex 95/96? (Vic) and Optimax 98. I THINK Shell Optimax 98 pulls very smidgetly better than Shell 95 though on the EURO... might be real, might be placebo effect haha! :wave:
As long as it contains ethanol, I will not use it on my car. Even if it is safe to use, it is lower quality stuff. The gain in performance of the 100 octane will be offset by the 2-3% loss in performance and economy (as quote from Honda) of the ethanol
Give us the unblended 100 octane. It's called market segmentation. There are people willing to pay for better fuel, despite everyone's complaints about rising fuel costs.
Hey.... honestly I don't understand why we shouldn't use Ethanol blended fuel.
It has higher Octane level. (Yes I admit Shell shouldn't be selling Extreme more than Optimax 98, using Ethanol as a cheap Octane enhancer.)
The Ethanol component burns better, completely.
An Ethanol blend can give better performance due to above two reasons in theory, but also might not. I'd put it on a Dyno-machine before making conclusions.
Ethanol component burns cleaner. Less pollution.
Ethanol IS renewable energy.
Producing Ethanol from vegetations, even when considering processing and embodied energy, still ends up with final Ethanol product being energy positive. All cars should run on 100% Ethanol!
Ethanol at approx. 68% of contained energy level compared to regular petrol, when used at a 5.0% blend will only decrease fuel consumption at 1.6%. But only on theory and speaking purely in terms of embedded potential energy.
In real life, because Ethanol blended fuel will burn slightly better than regular Petrol, it might achieve same or even higher mileage when the ECU compensates for this. Again, road/dyno testing has to be carried out before making a conclusion.
No ECU adjustments on older cars however.
The only people who have done these testing namely V8 Supercar Teams seem to carry the consensus that they show positive results in terms of power. As for economy some tuning has to be done from my interpretation. Yes they're Shell sponsored, how believable can it be? Well it may just be that they're correct.
But then again the V8 Supercars are highly tuned.
Which might not apply to our cars, which runs different Air Flow Meter/ECU designs, cruise mode vs full throttle mode, etc.
ANYWAY - I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD DISCOUNT THIS FUEL YET, UNTIL FULL TESTING HAS BEEN COMPLETED.
Ethanol is the way to go for the future. But Shell I reiterate shouldn't be selling this fuel at higher price than Optimax 98 IMHO.
one thing that is not mentioned above is the down side to using ethanol blened petrol. I have seen first hand the damage done over an over again in outboard motors. You see the problem lies with the alloy an lil plastic parts most commonly found in outboards and lawnmowers but also some newer car motors.it just litrally eats them away with corosion.
Another major factor we find with the outboards that would not be so noticable in cars. Is that most regular fuels last about a month an they so 2 months later when u run your boat it runs like shit. however optimax last upto 3 months stored we only tell people to use optimax
I think the government has tapped your phone line and agents have now surrounded your house.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.G.System
btw any of u guys have JDM engines like, JDM b16a, b16b, b18c used it?
and how does it feel?
If your engine was tuned for 100 octane originally, then Extreme should let your car run back at original timing. Using 100 octane over 98 won't give you a power boost. I think it's a placebo effect. But when you are using other mods such as turbos, upping compression and leaning out mixtures using a programmable ECU, then Extreme will help. The extra power comes from the mods, not the fuel. The higher octane will let you run with those mods without preignition.
u guys tried the fuel from UNITED ? i duno if its available in other states but in MELB they have quiet a few.
united 95 wif 5% or 10% (i forgot) ethanol is 4cents cheaper than normal 91unleaded
they have boost98 also but thats same price as normal BP ultimate / optimax
Yeah thats all true, but ethanol has more oxygen in it than ULP or PULP so its going to liberate more power as there is greater oxygen in the burn to encourage more complete combustion. If you are the type of person who only owns cars under warranty there is no issue for you as the corrosion will either take longer than 3 years to manifest or will be repairable under warranty anyway. Dodgy news for used car buyers, but I can see a market for it for new car buyers, especially as its cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by ek4-guy
If buying a car as a long termer I wouldn't use it without modification to the engine internals first. Holden sell cars to NZ with different alloy engine internals to combat corrosion from the ethanol blended fuels available in NZ. They cost more for this change, but the change ensures they don't fix warranty corrosion all the time.
The oxygen in ethanol doesn't liberate into O2 form to produce more power. Ethanol doesn't act like nitrous oxide in combustion engines. You are burning ethanol directly, not producing O2.
C2H5OH + 3O2 --> 2CO2 + 3H2O
Every ethanol molecule is gobbling up 3 O2 molecules. And the combustion of ethanol gives less power than when burning pure petrol.
Glad to see we're dealing with one of my favourite subjects -- Chemistry. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
Ethanol, as you mention does not contribute it's bonded oxygen molecules to further enhance the combustion process. However, I fail to see how you come to the conclusion that because ethanol combustion (in the presence of sufficient oxygen) is gobbling up more oxygen than the most common compound in fuel, octane (formula C8H18) that it somehow reduces the ability of the fuel to act optimally.
One C8H18 molecule with ignite with
2C8H18 + 25O2 --> 16CO2 + 18H2O
Thus two molecules of octane will react with 25 oxygen molecules. Using your arguement, octane would be an inefficient fuel compared to ethanol (which we know is not the case).
What isn't being addressed here is that the combustion within an engine is not optimised for the least amount of oxygen consumption, but instead for the most amount of expansive force (to power each piston) per unit volume of fuel used.
This expansive force is provided via the combustion process by the fact that the products occupy more volume than the associated reactants, both by there molecular properties (octane is a liquid at room temperature, with high density compared to CO2 and H2O - steam - at high temperature) and the temperature change as a result of the enthalpy of reaction (basically, the reaction creates heat).
If we look at enthanol, we have a lower heat of combustion than octane. Also, ethanol has a lower density than octane at room temperature. Overall this results in a reduced density per unit volume of fuel to produce expansive force.
For more on combustion go here
Ok, guys,
I finally found the DYNO result using optimax vs 100 base on Hondata master-James.
Go to his site and it explains www.racefuels.com.au/dynodetail.
More etahnol will give no more power but rather a detonation agent(based on James conclusion). But 100 still will>98 in performance once tuned.
DON'T GET CONNED!
RON - RESEARCH OCTANE NUMBER DOES NOT EQUAL MORE OCTANE OR MORE POWER!
The number is related to how liable the fuel is to auto-ignite under compression. Shell RON100 has achieved this reduced autoignitability by adding ethanol - a less energy dense fuel than octane.
It's a big con job.
It's true that if you tune an engine to a fuel which has a low auto-ignition property then you might tweak the engine's full potential power; but Shell - 100 adds nothing in and of itself and by diluting/blending with ethanol actually gives you an inferior product to pure petroleum distillates.
From Wikipedia...
Octane is measured relative to a mixture of isooctane (2,2,4-trimethylpentane, an isomer of octane) and n-heptane. An 87-octane gasoline has the same knock resistance as a mixture of 87% isooctane and 13% n-heptane, which does not mean that the gasoline actually contains 87% isooctane. It simply means that it has the same autoignition resistance as a mixture of 87% isooctane and 13% n-heptane. A low octane rating means that the fuel has a high tendency to autoignite, which is undesirable.
A high tendency to autoignite is undesirable in a gasoline engine but desirable in a diesel engine. The standard for the combustion quality of diesel fuel is the cetane number. A diesel fuel with a high cetane number has a high tendency to autoignite, as is preferred.
[edit]
Measurement methods
The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel through a specific test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing these results with those for mixtures of isooctane and n-heptane.
Regardless of what the chemistry and other things might or might not say - I am glad it has been proven that Optimax Extreme 100 is a better fuel than Optimax 98..... WHEN TUNED.
At least we got some data there :)
What I'm also interested in however, is whether there are gains when using this on an untuned NA car - like a Euro Accord. (Or a Turbo car.) Especially without using aftermarket computer to tune things.
Also how does other fuels like Mobil Synergy 8000 compare with Optimax 98 and Optimax Extreme 100, BP Ultimate, etc.
End of the day though, I have tried all these various fuels (except for Extreme 100) and they're all pretty much the same. Engine sounds different when running Synergy 8000 though, but unlike my previous Turbo car running this fuel - I couldn't really tell a difference between it and Optimax 98. I just use it anyway, because the engine sounds to combust a bit more better and I THINK there might be a lil bit of power in it.... but like AARONNG said it might just be my placebo effect lol.
I'm just debunking the myth that ethanol acts like nitrous oxide where it gives extra O2 molecules for combustion. It's a very common misconception that ethanol supplies extra oxygen for combustion. I was just illustrating that instead of providing oxygen, the combustion of ethanol actually consumes oxygen.Quote:
Originally Posted by drdrei
I embrace Ethanol as replacement fuel. :)