I think this is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKCVC
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I think this is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKCVC
So do I... im pretty sure the eg6 does that in initial D...
proof right there :P
I didn't want to try it since I have front bias brakes and apply brakes and throttle would meirly counteract eachother.
No, tell us what compression lock is. I've not heard of it before. as my understanding goes, most of the inertial load is after the flywheel, so pressing the accelerator to speed up everything before the flywheel doesn't do much anyway as when the clutch disengages the flywheel will be slowed down enough so that your initial blip doesn't do anything.
What is wrong with using the engine and drivetrain as an inertial load to stop your car again??
It's not clutch life Sir JDM, it's synchro life (and hence gearbox)
I thought I'd established that it takes planning to drive at a reasonable pace on the track and use track techniques. If you'd planned on enough time to use such techniques why will you enter 'too hot'? entering a turn 'too hot' indicates poor planning as it means you've entered a turn at too high a speed to perform necessary manuevers!Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKCVC
How can traction not be an issue? Traction is an issue even in drifting...
I'm really not so sure about this. They are both accelerative forces (i mean in a physics sense- changes in velocity). Why will acceleration put an engine under more load than deceleration if the change is at the same rate? Please explain this...Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKCVC
Its not at the same rate.Quote:
Why will acceleration put an engine under more load than deceleration if the change is at the same rate? Please explain this...
How can you compare the two without making them the same then?
I'm not comparing them? that was what my point was. I said that accell had more load on the engine etc then decel,
This is starting to feel like nitpicking. :D
omigosh, i don't visit ozhonda very often (only when ns.com is down), but couldn't help reading this thread! it seems like everyone here has no clue on these two techniques!! and you guys are suppose to be track warriors!
the only guy that has it right is VIPERX!!!! take time to read his post and think about it and it will make sense!! id type out the explanation in simple dot points but viperx has it right - just need to read it and think!!
and to those who think double clutching is used for up shifting... you've been watching too much f&f!!
Well no if you read the link viperx posted doubling the clutch used to be used on crash gear boxes up and down.
I see where viperx is coming from, needing the gear box revs matched in order to preserve the syncros... and I know I'm trying to learn the technique but if i need to down shift fast, I dont give a rats about doubling the clutch(ie my syncros) I just dont want compression lock due to low engine revs and hi road revs... which is my point for blipping the throttle.
and Viperx it only became nit picking when you made stupid nit picking rebutals. My main goal when down shifting into a corner, is to set myself up for the corner and the exit, I dont want to get caught out stumbling over peddles/taking to long to down shift... and i especially dont want to get compression lock. if that means matching engine to road revs without matching engine to gear box revs, so be it. Lets face it honda gear boxes can take a fair bit of punishment.
Why argue,...,a technique is good if it makes you go faster.......whatever works for the person,..., no one's right or wrong,..., race car drivers do what they do because it's proven, I believe there are some aftermarket ECU's that will incorporate a flat changing function. Otherwise, I wouldn't try it unless you love to buy new synchros
good call cyrus.
That's cool with me cyrus- i didnt accuse anyone of nitpicking. I only said that because I didnt feel like arguing anymore. And sikcvc, I have nothing against you, perhaps you worded your answers wrongly, but it just seems a little defensive for you to call my comments stupid. There is nothing technically wrong with what i described. I know what the limits to my knowledge and skill is and i don't feel the need to prove them to anyone, and I happily admitted I don't know what compression lock is, and I would like you to tell me if you're willing.
But why are you trying to learn double clutching now?Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKCVC
c'mon children. double clutching is doule cluthing-- if you can master it.. good on ya...your synchros will love you for it...^_^,
all i know i love the feel of double clutchin when down gearing into a corner...it reduces the bounce of the car and allows you to take the corner at the right speed and revs ^_^=== great for hills ahahahaha
Well to be honest ViperX I learnt a lot of stuff I know from my dad who was a susy and exhaust expert. He has done a lot of work on cars over the years including gettings my mums mini to wheel spin in every gear. Not to mention being friends with that crazzy roller mechanic in europe with the car that has a spitfire engine in it.
He had told me the usage of Doubling the clutch, which was on crash boxes (or what ever he called them) where revs HAD to be match in order to get it into gear. Without matching revs of the layshaft, engine and road it just wouldn't mesh.
After reading that article/info peice I can understand why its usefull when time permits I will do what I can to preserve my gears... esspecially at downshifts around 5000-6000rpm but in the lower gears (tight quick corners)... sorry syncros speed is of the essence.
Compression lock up... http://forums.melbccr.com/showthread.php?t=65493&page=1
Thats cool, i respect your experience... :)
Now i know what you're talking about... you're matching the engine output to the load (regardless of whether it comes from compression or friction) it has to work against (including engine and drivetrain) before engaging the clutch so that the power to speed up the engine revs to the neccessary rpm doesn't come from the rotation of the wheels...
But that's achievable just by increasing the throttle opening as you release the clutch right... it doesn't involve blipping the throttle (ie pressing the accelerator down and letting go, then pressing it down again)....
Its a lot smoother and faster to blip the revs. When I was learning downshift I tried it the way you mentioned but the revs tend to far out and it takes to long to match them up... all of which defeats the purpose of downshifting.
Fair enuff i guess... :)
urm this is interesting. Thanks for pointing out the compression lock issue. Can anyone tell me what happens if compression lock occurs? Besides the usual 'f-ing up of synchros'. I don't think I've experienced it before and would like to know the after effects on the engine. Would it (engine) seize/lock up? or would the engine speed matched the wheel speed (very abruptly) or vice versa? ie. more inertia, engine will match. Powerful engine, car speed/velocity matches the engine.
Its exactly as the name suggests... the wheels lock up. Wont do any more harm to your syncros than any other downshift without matching the layshaft speed.
Hi All,
new here - only the second post... and unfortunatelly I don't have the time being at work to sit and read all 8pgs of posts, so I apologise if I miss something or repeat something...
I think double clutching is only used in OLD cars, Trucks and Synchro busted newer cars. When driving and shifting upwards, technically only old boxes and trucks need to upshift, HOWEVER with todays oils, and mechanical advances it rarely happens even in those circumstances - people fix things.
I think alot of people seem to look at the movie Fast&Furious and hear VanDiesel say 'not double clutching like you should...' straight after the first Drag race... double clutching in any of those cars in that movie in an upshift would do nothing more than loose them time!
In my opinion - forget double clutching - and if you need to do it, get your gearbox fixed so u don't have to do it.
Heel n toe - its a common technique for race car drivers, rally drivers and its trickled down to US - road users. I use it just about every time im slowing down to a corner or even a set of lights. as explained before by some people, it involves toes on the brake and your heel or side of your foot on the accelerator blipping the pedal to raise the revs and eliminate whats called 'compression lock - engine speed slower than road speed'. It allows you to step on the gas and accelerate almost instantly, to pull the car out of a corner even with still having your foot on the brake. You can sometimes notice footwork by some japanese racers, in some race movies that come out. Observe that - and learn from that.
I hope i didn't step on any toes here... that was not the intention...
cheers
Mike
why would you want to blip the throttle on upshifting? you need the layshaft to decrease speed anyway.
ive seen BIG trucks double clutch when shifting up - its the way their gearboxes are designed I guess - this isn't in ALL trucks, only in the OLD Skool ones - i know definatelly in europe some trucks do that hence why I said some old cars and trucks need to double clutch when upshifting even...
mike
unless truck box design is totally different i don't see how it physically works shifting UP... down is good...
I double clutch changing from 1st to 2nd on cold starts as 2nd crunches. That's as far as double clutching goes for me.
yeah, that is when they are using the little gears between gears, some have low, mid, and high in each gear. on a 9 speed box, that's 27 gears! It's for pulling massive loads. It's friggin hard to do it, I've tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by SINISTR
Its unnecessary anyways!
It's not for pulling massive loads. its because many truck boxes dont have synchros.Quote:
Originally Posted by Type R Positive
And bizzy, before you comment read the rest of the thread. we have spent quite a while wringing the topic out with a reasonable amount of technical information and for you to come in and comment without any back up is just a reflection of your inability to have patience to read, to understand, or to be mature enough to put in the effort to practice.
And vtml, that probably means your synchro is fully stuffed.
A thousand apologies
I drive these trucks toss.Quote:
Originally Posted by viperx
Ok, my bad... It's not JUST for pulling massive loads in trucks. That was wat I meant. The technique does have it's uses in vehicles weighing less than 2 tonnes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Type R Positive
yep sorry mate, I was explaining about the trucks.......
All 3 questions have been answered! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by ian