VL turbos run NO bov from factory. As do CA18DET's too, supposedly
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VL turbos run NO bov from factory. As do CA18DET's too, supposedly
but hell, what do i know, im uneducated
So you feel you can explain to us how surge effects the turbocharger? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by aimre
Im not saying your uneducated, your not, im saying that you have nothing to show that surging wont effect turbo life, while there is plenty of SOLID PROOF out the from the top manurfactures that it is infact bad for the products they are engineering.
Here, directly from turbobygarrett.com
And..Quote:
Surge Line
Surge is the left hand boundary of the compressor map. Operation to the left of this line represents a region of flow instability. This region is characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor. Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
Surge is most commonly experienced when one of two situations exist. The first and most damaging is surge under load. It can be an indication that your compressor is too large. Surge is also commonly experienced when the throttle is quickly closed after boosting. This occurs because mass flow is drastically reduced as the throttle is closed, but the turbo is still spinning and generating boost. This immediately drives the operating point to the far left of the compressor map, right into surge.
Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.
Quote:
What is compressor surge?
The surge region, located on the left-hand side of the compressor map (known as the surge line), is an area of flow instability typically caused by compressor inducer stall. The turbo should be sized so that the engine does not operate in the surge range. When turbochargers operate in surge for long periods of time, bearing failures may occur. When referencing a compressor map, the surge line is the line bordering the islands on their far left side.
Compressor surge is when the air pressure after the compressor is actually higher than what the compressor itself can physically maintain. This condition causes the airflow in the compressor wheel to back up, build pressure, and sometimes stall. In cases of extreme surge, the thrust bearings of the turbo can be destroyed, and will sometimes even lead to mechanical failure of the compressor wheel itself.
Common conditions that result in compressor surge on turbocharger gasoline engines are:
A compressor bypass valve is not integrated into the intake plumbing between the compressor outlet and throttle body
The outlet plumbing for the bypass valve is too small or restrictive
The turbo is too big for the application
No, not at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by aimre
Infact, id even go as far as to say that out of us, im the only one who understands how very extreemly little I actually know.
The engineering involved when talking about turbochargers, is WAY WAY beyond crazy, none of us here can even BEGIN to understand how that surge of high pressure is going to effect everything within. What extra forces are being introduced, where are they distributed, what are the effects?
This is the exact reason i would rather listen to what manurfactures say is bad for their turbos. Garret states that compressor surge is bad for their turbos, what have you got to show them to be wrong?
What about a cat converter? Its there for emissions, so is a recirculation valve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
People who have not rebuilt their turbos after 4-5 years of dosing.Quote:
Garret states that compressor surge is bad for their turbos, what have you got to show them to be wrong?
Im not saying it doesnt do any damage, im just saying its so little, its not worth worrying.
Also, you keep neglecting my evidence.
Nizpro doesnt use them, responsible for the 1153hp xr6t, and you would think at those heat levels, premature wearing should be exaggerated.
Prodrive, the guys that run the subaru WRC car, and various other race cars, seem to think its unnecessary in the road going concept.
The guys responible for the Aqua subaru dont seem to think that its needed.
Many people on calaisturbo have been dosing for years without rebuilding turbos. Youd think they would stop dosing if it was so clear that it damaged turbos.
O, and my friends, have been dosing for years now, i we've yet to rebuild a turbo.
LOL Muzz, you're taking this too far. Garrett says it themselves, CAN cause damage when in CONTINUOUS or LONG PERIODS of time in the surge region. Surging under no load quickly between gears is neither of those things. Generalized FAQ answers is not SOLID PROOF of anything. Consider the forces involved between continuous operating in the surge region versus a little bit of chatter from your charge pipes filled with some boost. Got negligible?
Also please get off your high horse about everyone's knowledge. You've done one fluid mechanics course and you think you know it all? Please... Leave your comments on education at the door and concentrate on the discussion not those discussing it.
seriously reading this has made me more confused then wen i started LOL
I do you think I feel, I asked the question lolQuote:
Originally Posted by gReY-oNe
HAR HAR HAR ive been following this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Lukezen27
cos i was wondering the same thing
now im confused and have no idea wat to do LMAO
o btw, ive done fluid at uni too ;)
OK, ill try and clear things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by gReY-oNe
It does wear your turbo (so does normal use) BUT how much, no one seems to really know.
Some people say a lot while some people say its so little its not even worth considering (and i dont mean bob off the internet, i mean large companies that have the money to invest in R&D)
The only evidence we really have, is through trial. Now people on calaisturbo have been dosing for years, and many say that they havent rebuilt their turbos in years.
BUT, there is also people on calaisturbo who attribute their turbos failure to dosing. Only problem is, is that these failure can also be attributed to other causes.
SO, what u can do
- Fit a cheap bov $50. But these often leak, causing power loss and more headaches
- Fit a decent bov $400. Shouldnt leak, and should last a few years. Evantually do wear and start to leak.
- Dont fit anything. $0. BUT may cause premature failure. So it might cost a rebuild. ($400-700). Remember turbos do wear and all will eventually need a rebuild. Think of it as an excuse to hiflow ;)
^^^ lmao
thanks for clearing that up
plus i brought one already anyway LOL
lol yeahQuote:
Originally Posted by gReY-oNe
what model did you buy?
Cheap or ....
i picked it up from my friends friend
an apexi twin chamber one
i wouldnt say its the best but it dus its job
That is a totally perfect and legit opinion, and I can see what your saying 200%.Quote:
Originally Posted by aimre
I think you guys have totally taken what ive said so far, completely in the wrong context.
See this is exactly what I was saying in my very 1st post, it really all just comes down to your own personal opinions, and values.
(Please note the above word “maby”)Quote:
Run one if you like the noise or you want your turbo to be working in the best possible conditions, and the extra cost dosnt bother you.
Dont run one, if you dont like the "psssshhhh", you like the dose sound, or your happy to risk maby reducing your turbos working life, to save some cash.
I’m the kind of person that wants every thing working exactly as intended, I would like to know that my turbo is working in the best conditions I can give it. If I can eliminate it from having to deal with it regularly seeing surge conditions for a reasonable price, I will.
I guess you could say, I value long service life mostly, and I do. I want my setup to run like an oem designed system, with everything working exactly as intended.
You seem to be the kind of person that isn’t going to spend his money on a product that he will never really see much of a benefit from. And when it really comes down to it, you aren’t, the downside being that your turbo will be exposed to harsher conditions, which may, or may not effect turbo life. And as I’ve stated, NONE of us have the knowledge to say how much it will.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by aimre
Add to that the fact that every system is different, each turbo is different, everyone’s running different psi levels, power levels, airflow rates, the compressor graphs are different, different turbos will be more vulnerable to damage from surge, times spent in surge between systems will be different, etc, etc, etc.
On some systems, a bov may be completely and utterly pointless, while on others it may be very necessary to prevent excessive wear. Weather or not a bov is useful depends greatly on the setup.
We don’t know how much surge will effect the turbo, only that turbos don’t like surge conditions.
Again, I’ve never stated that a bov will greatly effect the turbo’s lifespan, all ive been stating is that it’s a solid fact, that surge conditions are bad for the turbo.
I’m not saying my setup will be better than yours or anything at all like that, there’s no such thing, its all a matter of view.
For me, my setups better because I can drive around, knowing than my turbochargers as happy as it can possibly be under the bonnet. Its not being exposed to detrimental conditions so theres no worries of any negative effects that may be caused from the repetative surging.
For you, your setups better because you havnt wasted money on a part that really isn’t going to effect much at all, especially performance wise. And why not, as you’ve stated you know plenty of people running without one successfully. On top of that you also enjoy the sound of not running one. Not to mention not running one saves cash for other mods.
As I stated in my 1st post, it’s ALL a matter of values, and opinions. We all have different values, my values call for me to get a bov, yours call for you to pass, spend that money elsewhere.
True, but then again, maybe they feel it’s not worth the trade off between the extra weight, and the longevity of the turbo, there could be plenty of reasons why they feel better off without one.Quote:
Nizpro doesnt use them, responsible for the 1153hp xr6t, and you would think at those heat levels, premature wearing should be exaggerated.
I cant imagine a car of this level will be using the same turbo all they way to the end of its lifespan due to wear, bov or not.
Plus I’m sure they have a decent budget, so slightly accelerated wear would probably be less of an issue.
Again, the question of weather or not to run a bov comes down to what you value, and your objectives for the car.
Fair enough, obviously every turbo system not running one is doing so for a reason. Weather it be for cost reasons, no measurable benefits in performance at a cost in weight, no measurable benefits in turbo life, or whatever, we cant say.Quote:
Prodrive, the guys that run the subaru WRC car, and various other race cars, seem to think its unnecessary in the road going concept.
The guys responible for the Aqua subaru dont seem to think that its needed.
Just because various different cars have chosen to leave a bov out of the system, doesn’t automatically mean their doing so because there’s no effect at all on the turbochargers lifespan.:thumbsup:
True, and while it does give an ok indication, that a turbo can deal ok with slight surge conditions, its not enough to say with a bov on X engine, the turbo lasted 180,000kms before needing a rebuild, and on the same engine, in simular driving conditions, without a bov the turbo only lasted 155,000kms.Quote:
Originally Posted by aimre
Here, ill add to mre confusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtMmze0KM6Q
At about 20 sec in, youll hear the Audi drive past, and u can hear it dose. But then at 50 sec, when the lancia drives past, it sound like its got a BOV.
Although audi won both constructors and drivers championship ;)
BTW, there a bad accident in that, which marked an end to Group B rallying.... its safe to watch the first 1.20 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quDX36WJM7k
some more dosing rally cars
5 min in and its all about the lancia... lots of BOV noises
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdgkmirNPf8
O btw, these cars were 4 sec slower than f1 cars of the time, which were making over 1000hp from theit 1.5L engines
Sorry for the slow reply to your post sting, i havnt had much time latly.
No, what Garrett says is exactly this:Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Not "continuous operation in this region", but "continued operation in this region", there’s a big difference.Quote:
Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
This could very easily mean - if the turbo continues to see surge conditions throughout its life, this may lead to early failure. NOWHERE in that statement does it imply that the surge needs to be continual for the effects to be damaging, so don’t try and pretend it does, ok.
Infact if you read on slightly, you’ll also come to this statement:
Quote:
This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve.
^^If they were actually saying that damage may occur, only if the turbo was continually running in surge, they wouldn’t go stating that the problem is usually addressed by running a bov, now would they.
Exactly what are you trying to say with this statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Are you trying to say Garrett doesn’t actually have proof that operating in surge conditions is bad for their turbos? Did they go and put false info into there FAQ and turbo tech sections yeah? There making misleading statements like the one below are they?
Maybe your trying to say they’ve never really bothered to work out if surge conditions are detrimental??Quote:
In cases of extreme surge, the thrust bearings of the turbo can be destroyed
Dude, do you seriously think that the engineers who have determined that operating in surge is bad for the turbos they are designing, have done so without any proof? Stop kidding yourself, ok.
Ok, I will.Quote:
Consider the forces involved between continuous operating in the surge region versus a little bit of chatter from your charge pipes filled with some boost.
No, I get equal.Quote:
Got negligible?
Consider a turbo experiencing a surge condition for half a second, consider the same turbo experiencing the same surge but for a period of 10-15 seconds.
There’s going to be NO differences in the forces involved, the only difference is the TIME that the forces are being applied....
A continuous period of surge compared to the same amount of surge in short bursts of time, would probably only cause more heat energy release, due to the extended periods of friction. Heat that probably won’t even effect the temp of the metal receiving the extra friction, much, as it would already be damn hot.
Where did you learn that the chatter is actually coming from the piping?Quote:
A little bit of chatter from your charge pipes.
Is this solid info you’re sharing here, or are you stating what you think?
Garrett seems to think it’s from the compressor.
Maybe you’re just doing your best to make it seem like surge from suddenly blocking the airflow is somehow less damaging than surge for other reasons.Quote:
This region is characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor.
Is this something you actually know, or is it something you feel, or is it just a misleading statement to try and help convince people of your opinion?
Hahahahhahahhaha you’re funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by string
High horse? Wouldn’t that imply that I think I know more than you guys?
Quote:
unless you’ve studied fluid dynamics to a very high level which none of us have.
Quote:
Infact, id even go as far as to say that, im the one who understands how very extremely little I actually know.
Quote:
none of us here can even BEGIN to understand
Quote:
as I’ve stated, NONE of us have the knowledge
Quote:
We don’t know how much surge will effect the turbo
^^Yes clearly I’m under the impression I know more than everyone else, everything ive said screams it out hey.Quote:
I’m not saying my setup will be better than yours or anything at all like that
BTW, I haven’t done a fluid dynamics course, never implied I did????
Quote:
Originally Posted by string
I never said anything about Aimre's Education. I was stating that he dosnt know exactly how operating in surge is going to effect the parts of the turbo, like the rest of us, so cant really go saying its not going to effect the turbo, as he dosnt have that knowledge. And neither do i which i though was made clear by this statement:Quote:
do you understand how the surging air effects the turbines mechanicals? Im guessing not, which really dosnt make what your saying any more than an uneducated opinion
Quote:
unless you’ve studied fluid dynamics to a very high level which none of us have.
Just read the 1st 6 pages of this thread. Quite a few people have stated that there is zero effect on turbo life from running in an unstable surge condition at every gear change for a split second, like its a fact.
I was just wondering if anyone who has stated this has any actual info to support their claims??
Turbo manurfactures all seem to state that the thrust loads on the shaft when the throttle is snapped shut, can cause accelerated wear of the thrust bearing. I havnt seen anything to prove or disprove this yet. Untill somone can show it dosn't, ill be listening to the people designing these products who say it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
i'll reply further when i get back from uniQuote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
This is the best sort of answer your gonna get i think. They way I see it, your gonna have more load on the shaft with more boost you have, so therefore you will get more wear. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by DLO01
Oh dear. I completely meant and said that the charge pipes cause "chatter". I can take partial quotes out of context too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
You're shooting down my interpretation of garrett's FAQ only to try to bend it in your direction. Please...Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
Please explain to me your interpretations of continuous and continued, and how they relate to Garrett's own words: "long periods of time" (which you so beautifully claimed they did not say).Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett
10-15 seconds of surge = x ammount of boost pushing back for 10-15 seconds of mayhem.
Off throttle surge = x ammount of boost in a given volume leaking back through the compressor, obviously diminishing pressure quickly over time, thus also force. You thought you were being smart with your pedanticism over the term "force", you have failed.
Also, explain to my why metal which is already hot "probably" won't have it's temperature affected by friction. I thought you did mechanical engineering???
just dose and replace when failure occurs
Yeah I've decided to dose and that's it :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bludger
aimre makes a good point, the cost seems about that same in the end anyway...
Exactly, not running one youd never know worse off anyways.
Sting, i dont have time to bicker with you on somthing as petty as this, this is the last time im going to reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
Sorry man, here ill use your whole quote for ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by string
You’re implying that surge from the throttle snapping shut, is less harmful then surge for other reasons. Are you not?Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Do you know this for sure?
Your saying straight out “a little bit of chatter from the charge pipes filled with some boost”. If you infact know its not from the charge pipes, then why the hell say it? :thumbdwn:
Why not say it exactly how it is?
"Consider the forces involved between continuous operating in the surge region, versus seeing the surge region for a split second every gear change."
Oh yes, that’s right, it dosnt help support your views, better to say it in a way that gives the impression that surge from closing the throttle is less damaging.
Just a little bit of chatter from the pipes filled with some boost? Couldn’t think of a better way to make it sound harmless, great job!
Im not taking ANYTHING out of context, im using your quote in the exact context you said it bud.
.................................................. .................................................. ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
Bend it my direction? Are you ****ing kidding? This is a joke correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Please, god please, tell me how what I said helps support my views, go on, Ill paypal you $10 for trying.
No im “shooting down” your quote because it shows absolutely nothing, and adds zero to either side discussion. For us, no, we cant take it as “proof”, but im not using it as “proof”, I posted it to show that garrett believes turbos don’t like operating in surge. Simple.
Because this info is in their FAQ (and also turbo tech section), doesn’t mean crap.
Its not like they go “Oh well, its only a FAQ section, we’re not sure if surge is bad, but it’s a FAQ, so lets just say it is anyways”.
.................................................. .................................................. ....
Ok, my bad. I was reading from garrets turbo tech section, not from the FAQs. There are 2 sections that apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Either way, what I said still stands:Quote:
- Surge is the left hand boundary of the compressor map. Operation to the left of this line represents a region of flow instability. This region is characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor. Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
- When turbochargers operate in surge for long periods of time, bearing failures may occur. When referencing a compressor map, the surge line is the line bordering the islands on their far left side.
This could very easily mean - if the turbo continues to see surge conditions throughout its life, this may lead to early failure. NOWHERE in that statement does it imply that the surge needs to be continual for the effects to be damaging, so don’t try and pretend it does, ok.
Infact if you read on slightly, you’ll also come to this statement:Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Quote:
This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve.
I was relating it to the words:Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Continuous – Doesn’t stop.Quote:
Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
Continued – Can mean continuous ASWELL as "repeating into the future", Can easily mean either one.
Eitherway, the quote below shows that they are implying continued, short surges, not only a single continuous surge.
Quote:
This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve.
I really cant imagine that for the 0.3-0.5 seconds that your foots off the accelerator that that’s enough time for the boost to go below what it is set at.Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Think about it, when the throttle snaps shut, there is a massive spike of boost, the turbos still spinning like crazy, but decelerating quickly.
In that .5 seconds max, I really cant see it slowing to the point that boost is actually going to drop back down and below the regular boost setting, with the turbo still spinning at a great rate of knots.
Infact, id put every cent of my money on the AVERAGE boost level for the .5 seconds that the throttle is snapped shut, being well above the stock boost level. I very strongly doubt that the average level of boost for that time to be less then where the boost is set.
You thought you were being smart with your term pedanticism, you have failed. <-god that sounds gay, huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Im basing that on the fact that a piece of metal at 300 degrease isn’t going to get hotter if 250 degrees of heat is applied, infact the 250 degrease of heat will actually cool the metal at 300 degrease. I’m not to sure what happens with heat energy from friction hence the word “Probably”.Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Either way, id say the heat change will be nothing compared to if we were talking about the same friction on cold metal.
I don’t do mechanical engineering, im studying it, big difference. Im only 1.5 years into it, got a hell of a lot to learn yet.
Anyways, arguing about this shit is completly pointless, if you reply, i agree with everything you have to say.
Im over this crap.
bov = great if ur a ricer
wow, after 10 pages of replies you say sumthing as stupid as BOV = great if ur a ricer?....
orly? dont all skylines come with stock bovs?Quote:
Originally Posted by BAMBANG PAMUNGKAS
serious man. bov are good if they are plumback.
otherwise, wtf they do. nothing but make noise and reduce compressor surge / dose. thats right.
so its a ricer mod.
Clearly this subject was something a lot of people were thinking about :wave:
Whoa burn; you 'study' mechanical engineering not 'do' it... For a second there I was completely confused! Please, be a bit more pedantic, it makes you sound oh so smart...
Stop trying to pretend that your interpretation of their FAQ is any more correct than mine. Nowhere in the FAQ does it provide any conclusive evidence for either case, so either dig deeper or keep your "proof" to yourself.
Can't wait to get a hold of some Muzz Thrust Bearings. They cool down with friction, but only when they get to operating temperature! Genius!
Dude, you are to funny, i had to reply.
Dude WTF is wrong with you? Seriously, you state:Quote:
Originally Posted by string
I took this as "i thought you would know, cus your an engineer"Quote:
Originally Posted by string
My reply "i dont know everything, im not an engineer, only a student"
And you come back with this gay shit?
ABSOLUTLY ***ING PATHETIC:thumbdwn:Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Dude i was simply replying to what you said to me.
Shits getting real low when your comeback is at me, for defending my lack of knowledge, against you.:thumbdwn:
Dude, do you even read what i write?Quote:
Originally Posted by string
You sir, are a complete and utter dumbass:thumbsup:Quote:
For us, no, we cant take it as “proof”, but im not using it as “proof”, I posted it to show that garrett believes turbos don’t like operating in surge. Simple.
My interpretation of garrets FAQ, dumbass, is simply that garrett are stating that surge is bad for the turbo, nothing more.
Well what do you know, in the FAQ garrett is stating that surge is bad.
Im not INTERPRETING shit, im looking at garretts site, and looking at where there stating its bad.
Did i ever say it was proof? NO
Did i say to us, its not proof? YES
Did i say, i cant imagine them stating that without their own proof? YES
Do you keep making more of an ass of yourself? YES
Are you an idiot? DOUBLE YES
Dude, go back, READ.Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Im not even talking about bearings, im stating fact about heat transfer.
If somthing at 300 deg is in contact with somthing at 250 deg, it will cool down.
OBVIOUSLY this isnt gunna happen, because what the hell is going to cool the bearings down? The point, which obviously flew straight over your head, is that somthings thats hot, isnt going to suffer a massive rise in heat, as its already chocka block full of heat energy already, and is going to absorb heat at a much much slower rate than somthing which is cool.
Sting, open your eyes, your wasting your time arguing with somone whos not on either side.
Im not for or against BOVs, its all a matter of what you value, both sides of the argument are perfectly valid, and your still here bitching at me for being wrong? Good on ya!
Your doing such a great job as a soldier for the "no bov's" crew, you should be very proud.
How can i be wrong when my opinion is:
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To run one, or not to run one, simple question.
Run one if you like the noise or you want your turbo to be working in the best possible conditions, and the extra cost dosnt bother you.
Dont run one, if you dont like the noise, your focoused on weight reduction, are scared of adding somthing else which can malfunction, you like the dose sound, or your happy to risk maby reducing your turbos working life, to save some cash.
Its ALL about what you value in your system
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I’m the kind of person that wants every thing working exactly as intended, I would like to know that my turbo is working in the best conditions I can give it. If I can eliminate it from having to deal with it regularly seeing surge conditions for a reasonable price, I will.
I guess you could say, I value long service life mostly, and I do. I want my setup to run like an oem designed system, with everything working exactly as intended.
You seem to be the kind of person that isn’t going to spend his money on a product that he will never really see much of a benefit from. And when it really comes down to it, you aren’t, the downside being that your turbo will be exposed to harsher conditions, which may, or may not effect turbo life. And as I’ve stated, NONE of us have the knowledge to say how much it will.
Your wasting your time, and mine.
muzz 1
sting -100
Wow for someone who's time is so important you sure do write a lot.
And for the record if I ever bought a new turbo i'd get a bypass valve for sure. Oops there you go assuming things again!
Great, its all good then...Quote:
Originally Posted by string
this is bs.
Infractions dealt out.
Closed. Pm a mod if u require this reopened