Replacement shock discussion: Are my shocks blown? *PICS*

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Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE

Because I have noticed a MASSIVE 2.1 second difference in lap times by just changing coilovers. Doesn't that say anything to you?

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What it says to me (suggests at least) is that on that track on that day the 'coilovers' you used had spring / damper rates that more suited the prevailing conditions than the dampers / spring combination you were using previously.

It still sounds to me like you might be comparing apples and oranges (?) because the difference in lap times could have been due less to the dampers and more to do with any differences in spring rates, or anything else that might have been different between the two set ups such as ride heights....?

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Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE

He also followed up with Koni and Bilstein to be the only readily available damper... niiiccceeee....

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I'm sure you can get other high quality stand alone dampers if you go looking, and want to pay significantly more, but Koni and Bilstein would be by far the most common and readily sourced that would also bolt straight in...

Good points made above. And I might have been a little harsh in saying that they are crap. But comparing them to a "coilover" (yes I know that a shock spring is a coilover, just using this terms to differentiate the two) I didn't like them. And I most likely got a dogdgy set, cos they stuffed up on me.

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Originally Posted by JohnL

What it says to me (suggests at least) is that on that track on that day the 'coilovers' you used had spring / damper rates that more suited the prevailing conditions than the dampers / spring combination you were using previously.

It still sounds to me like you might be comparing apples and oranges (?) because the difference in lap times could have been due less to the dampers and more to do with any differences in spring rates, or anything else that might have been different between the two set ups such as ride heights....?

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Springs rates are the same, tyres were the same (only 6 months older and staler for the quicker run), same pressure, temps were 3 degrees warmer, ride height is identical, same camber, same wheel alignment settings, Car was the same weight, only I put on 8kg (in 6 months) LOL, I lost 8kW in peak (as new tune was for street, low to mid range). Only thing between the 2 systems that I noticed distinctly, is that the zeals react to one or 2 clicks of the damper controller, where as the BC's 7-15 was unnotiable. I pretty much went out there to compare the 2 different coilovers systems, as I like to test and see what new parts actually do to a car (I am learning afterall), and what better way is there to test than to throw them on your car and track? You can do all the reading you want, and watch as many races on TV as you want... but if the variable between the seat and steering wheel is changing, what good is that in comparing different products? From what I have tried a shock is defiantely not a shock. The Zeal shat all over the BC 10 times over. Street, track, dirt roads. I just don't get how you can confidently comment on what is better if you haven't trialed multiple products on your own very car, holding as many variables constant as you can.

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Originally Posted by JohnL

I'm sure you can get other high quality stand alone dampers if you go looking, and want to pay significantly more, but Koni and Bilstein would be by far the most common and readily sourced that would also bolt straight in...

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It's funny that you say that, because I am still yet to meet someone with a Bilstein shock. Where as KW, Jap coilovers, Ohlins, Showa I have seen and tried first hand. Not all of the have been in my car per say.

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Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE

Good points made above. And I might have been a little harsh in saying that they are crap. But comparing them to a "coilover" (yes I know that a shock spring is a coilover, just using this terms to differentiate the two) I didn't like them. And I most likely got a dogdgy set, cos they stuffed up on me.

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It's not impossible that you had a "dodgy" set, even the best companies have quality control issues at times. It could be that Koni had a bad batch of something from a supplier, say seals or whatever, just speculating.

I know that you know that the stock set up is a coilover design, I just get a bit tired of so many people making the error of assuming that 'coilovers' are inherantly different in some manner. The more often this error is repeated the more misunderstanding is generated, though it is a rather convenient if false differentiation...

Sure, there are typically (by which I mean possibly not in all cases) more adjustments than you get with say a Koni, but typically the only really useful one is the infinite ride height adjustment (something else for people to mess up!). The 'coilover' bump rate adjusters are typically next to useless (almost zero range, despite a heap of 'clicks') and the range of rebound adjustment quite small re Konis (I've seen the dyno sheets).

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Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE

Springs rates are the same, tyres were the same (only 6 months older and staler for the quicker run), same pressure, temps were 3 degrees warmer, ride height is identical, same camber, same wheel alignment settings, Car was the same weight,

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Track rubber? There's a huge difference between a grippy and non grippy track. All it takes is a bit of rain and the grip goes away.

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Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE

Only thing between the 2 systems that I noticed distinctly, is that the zeals react to one or 2 clicks of the damper controller, where as the BC's 7-15 was unnotiable. I pretty much went out there to compare the 2 different coilovers systems, as I like to test and see what new parts actually do to a car (I am learning afterall), and what better way is there to test than to throw them on your car and track?

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So you were testing two different brands of 'coilover' against each other, not Konis / springs and 'coilovers'?

I'd suggest that if a big change on the adjuster makes no noticable difference (or only a small difference), then the damper is probably not very good...

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Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE

You can do all the reading you want, and watch as many races on TV as you want... but if the variable between the seat and steering wheel is changing, what good is that in comparing different products?

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That can be a big difference right there. I know from experience in karts that you can arrive at the track in the morning and play with the settings, getting faster and faster as the day goes on, but at the end of the day the set up can actually be worse than when you started, despite the faster times.

The reason being that as the day progressed the driver him/herself improved more than the set up deteriorated. This is especially possible if the driver is only in the kart every month or so (or less often), rather than every weekend. I'm sure it's the same for car drivers who aren't on the track all that often.

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Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE

From what I have tried a shock is defiantely not a shock. The Zeal shat all over the BC 10 times over. Street, track, dirt roads. I just don't get how you can confidently comment on what is better if you haven't trialed multiple products on your own very car, holding as many variables constant as you can.

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I'm not a suspension expert, though I have given the subject a fair bit of study and thought. I can only comment from my own experience and thinking, and from the experieces related to me by people who's opinion I trust, or from information I've read from apparently reliable, knowledgeable and experienced sources. It's the best any of us can do unless we can afford the money and time to test every available option in stringently controlled conditions.

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Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE

It's funny that you say that, because I am still yet to meet someone with a Bilstein shock. Where as KW, Jap coilovers, Ohlins, Showa I have seen and tried first hand. Not all of the have been in my car per say.

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I've yet to see Bilsteins on a Honda (on other cars yes), but I'm told they're not hard to get (hearsay though, never researched Bilstein availability for Hondas personally). Konis seem much more common, I suspect perhaps because most people really like the idea of having some adjustment, though adjustment per se doesn't necessarily mean that the damper is any better...

koni yellows are fine. Personally have used it and tracked it with some good results. Also car was daily driven for 60 000km on streets.

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Originally Posted by JohnL

It's not impossible that you had a "dodgy" set, even the best companies have quality control issues at times. It could be that Koni had a bad batch of something from a supplier, say seals or whatever, just speculating.

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Understood, and is most likely

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Originally Posted by JohnL

I know that you know that the stock set up is a coilover design, I just get a bit tired of so many people making the error of assuming that 'coilovers' are inherantly different in some manner. The more often this error is repeated the more misunderstanding is generated, though it is a rather convenient if false differentiation...

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Very true, people need to learn this.

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Originally Posted by JohnL

Sure, there are typically (by which I mean possibly not in all cases) more adjustments than you get with say a Koni, but typically the only really useful one is the infinite ride height adjustment (something else for people to mess up!). The 'coilover' bump rate adjusters are typically next to useless (almost zero range, despite a heap of 'clicks') and the range of rebound adjustment quite small re Konis (I've seen the dyno sheets).

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True.

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Originally Posted by JohnL

Track rubber? There's a huge difference between a grippy and non grippy track. All it takes is a bit of rain and the grip goes away.

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Yes, however... the conditions on the day were almost identical. Rained for 3 days before track day, and then cleared up the day before. I cannot comment on the amount of rubber lacing the track though. But conditions were as close as I would like them to have been.
If anything, the conditions of the track could not make up for 2.1 seconds.
If anything, by loss of power, gain in weight, and age of tyres, I SHOULD have been slower.

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Originally Posted by JohnL

So you were testing two different brands of 'coilover' against each other, not Konis / springs and 'coilovers'?

I'd suggest that if a big change on the adjuster makes no noticable difference (or only a small difference), then the damper is probably not very good...

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Correct. I was commenting on the statement made eariler in this thread on "shocks are shocks". Also, this is why I say Buddyclubs coilovers are NOT so great. I had never liked them.

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Originally Posted by JohnL

That can be a big difference right there. I know from experience in karts that you can arrive at the track in the morning and play with the settings, getting faster and faster as the day goes on, but at the end of the day the set up can actually be worse than when you started, despite the faster times.

The reason being that as the day progressed the driver him/herself improved more than the set up deteriorated. This is especially possible if the driver is only in the kart every month or so (or less often), rather than every weekend. I'm sure it's the same for car drivers who aren't on the track all that often.

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True, but karts are very different compared to cars.

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Originally Posted by JohnL

I'm not a suspension expert, though I have given the subject a fair bit of study and thought. I can only comment from my own experience and thinking, and from the experieces related to me by people who's opinion I trust, or from information I've read from apparently reliable, knowledgeable and experienced sources. It's the best any of us can do unless we can afford the money and time to test every available option in stringently controlled conditions.

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You can't comment on products by reading on them. For example, 99.99% of people have experienced more oversteer, when a thicker (say Cusco) sway bar is fitted. I on the otherhand, for some screwed up reason, have experienced extreme Understeer when it was fitted.
This is why I say let people share their opinions, because everyones cars are set up differently. Maybe not correctly... but differently.
I know myself, would rather listen and gather views from someone that has experimented with a handful of products in a short period of time, with a large amount of controlled variables - than some mate or random on the internet, who would have a biased opinion on a product, because they could be either jealous that you have something "better", or don't really know what is happening, or say that the street is a good enough place to 'test' out a product. Yet you say you gather your information from readings? How can this compare to first hand experiences.. I don't get it?

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Originally Posted by JohnL

I've yet to see Bilsteins on a Honda (on other cars yes), but I'm told they're not hard to get (hearsay though, never researched Bilstein availability for Hondas personally). Konis seem much more common, I suspect perhaps because most people really like the idea of having some adjustment, though adjustment per se doesn't necessarily mean that the damper is any better...

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How many people do you know with Bilsteins, compared to the people you know with say Teins, or something? Would you still say Bilstiens are MORE readily avaialble than Tein's, Zeals etc...?
Koni's are common because they are cheap, and good for the street. You say they are reliable - Great! I did not have this experience, and would not buy again. But is the majority likes them, then someone who is purchasing this product should not have any doubts in buying them. Yet, I have people come up to me after they ride shotgun with me, telling me that they regret buying Konis.

OoOO a mate blew front right koni shock last night. 2 years of use.

my koni yellows have seen 60,000k of use in the last 2 years
so far so good