What to do about my auto box.

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Originally Posted by my_vtec77

My auto cant even beat MR2. Shame on me..May be my driving skills' not good:o

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There's no skill in auto....foot down and hope for the best :thumbdwn:

The auto box is just dead end in terms of performance. The gear ratios are too long and it's only really suitable for high speeds and daily commuting. 1st gear readline goes to around 60 km/h, 2nd around 120 km/h, and 3rd already 130km/h+. I rarely reach 3rd gear redline or even VTEC on suburban roads. 4th and 5th gear are cruising gears with pretty much no use for lower speeds (low meaning anything below 150km/h).

I use to drive the Euro around twisties and there's only 2 gears your can really use....2nd and 3rd. Tight twisties means one gear....2nd.

The upside to the auto is that is is very smooth and it does keep in gear and shift up and down upon demand with minimal delay. However, torque converter means shifting down won't slow you down....more like ultra slow rev match down a gear and maintaing constant speed.

So all in all, the auto box (like most auto boxes besides the real clutchless manuals like DSG and SMG etc) wasn't built with performance in mind and it never will. Might as well change to a 6MT or find something to shorten the gear ratios. Supercharger might improve the low end response, which the auto Euro really lacks :p

You sure you got your speeds right? With the 6MT, 1st gear goes to 58km/h, 2nd to 98km/h and 3rd to about 130km/h.

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Originally Posted by aaronng

You sure you got your speeds right? With the 6MT, 1st gear goes to 58km/h, 2nd to 98km/h and 3rd to about 130km/h.

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Yeah, I was about to say - doesn't look right for the auto.

My mistake...I think 2nd is around 120km/h actually, and 3rd is well over 130km/h as i said before. Haven't driven the Euro for a while let alone redline it :p All I know is that I hardly reach 3rd redline and 2nd was awfully long. 1st is still around the 60km/h mark if I remember correctly. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The autos just for cruising.If you want to have more driver input get a manual.Just my opinion.:)

[Edit] Apologies for hijack of thread...i think this is still in the vein of it.. [Edit]

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Originally Posted by Slugoid

There's no skill in auto....foot down and hope for the best :thumbdwn:

The auto box is just dead end in terms of performance. The gear ratios are too long and it's only really suitable for high speeds and daily commuting. 1st gear readline goes to around 60 km/h, 2nd around 120 km/h, and 3rd already 130km/h+. I rarely reach 3rd gear redline or even VTEC on suburban roads. 4th and 5th gear are cruising gears with pretty much no use for lower speeds (low meaning anything below 150km/h).

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Ok, so are you saying if i were to do the same mods as someone with a manual (eg chip/zorst/intake ) that i WOULDN'T make ANY gains? or are you saying that the gains would not be as great as a manual?

Differnt car but i did hear a guy from F1 performance saying that there IS scope in the auto commys to be even faster than the manuals..(yes 'faster' is a subjective term) i understand that im talking about the difference between an 8cyl and 4cyl..

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Originally Posted by Slugoid

I use to drive the Euro around twisties and there's only 2 gears your can really use....2nd and 3rd. Tight twisties means one gear....2nd.

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Agreed... but how is this different to a manual? Have i misread this ?

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Originally Posted by Slugoid

The upside to the auto is that is is very smooth and it does keep in gear and shift up and down upon demand with minimal delay. However, torque converter means shifting down won't slow you down....more like ultra slow rev match down a gear and maintaing constant speed.

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by Slugoid

So all in all, the auto box (like most auto boxes besides the real clutchless manuals like DSG and SMG etc) wasn't built with performance in mind and it never will. Might as well change to a 6MT or find something to shorten the gear ratios. Supercharger might improve the low end response, which the auto Euro really lacks :p

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Agreed

Would it be fair to say that top end speed in an Auto Euro is not what people with these cars should be aiming for but improvements in the lowend is better?
In which case i say bring it on!. cause i will (most likely) not drag my car or heavy track duties..im more likely to have it as a street car where the speed limits are enforced neway...

Im just trying to understand ur response..as it has confused me and might have confused others..feel free to take me to school on this here or PM..im trying to learn... :cool:

apologies if this looks like a flame..im really just trying to understand it all..

Basically.... the disadvantages that an auto has against a manual:

1) Longer ratios. I'm surprised that even with a 5-speed auto, the Euro's ratios are still long. I would have expected it to reach the same top speed in gear as with older 5-speed manuals.

2) Gear changes on its own. While self-upshift is not an issue with the Euro's 5AT where you can bounce off the limiter, you are still locked out of 1st gear eventhough you are at a suitable speed for it, say at 50km/h.

3) Efficiency. The torque convertor sacrifices RPM to boost torque. That's why autos are quick off the line but up top they are slower than equivalent manuals.

When is an auto better than a manual? When your engine is excessively powerful for your car, such as V8s.

They are not saying that modding an auto doesn't give you gains. They are saying that the auto starts at a performance level lower than the manual. Once you spend $5000++ on Jtune or whatever mods, you'd probably just beat a stock manual. It would make more (financial) sense to go for a manual if you wanted performance or something with a more powerful engine + auto.

Thanks aarong..i understand now what you guys are saying... :)

cheers

Adam - re that comment by Slugoid about only 2nd gear in the auto being the most useful gear in the twisties - yes, you are right it is the same gear for the manual (well up to 100kph twisties).

The key difference is, however, the ratio. Lets say you are coming out of a 70kph corner in the auto in 2nd gear (sports shifting). You then apply full throttle once you are out of the corner onto a straight. At this point in time you are down in the rev range in 2nd gear - whereas in the manual at that same point you are much higher up in the rev range.

So even though the MT and auto cars leave the corner at the same speed and in the same gear - the MT is going to pull away in 2nd gear as it is able to make more practical use of the higher end of the rev range. Does that make sense? The gearing is quite long in the auto which dulls performance.

What happens if you leave the 5AT gearbox in "2" and you floor it at 50km/h. Does it downshift to 1st? If it does, that might be an advantage over 6MT in the twisties.

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Originally Posted by aaronng

What happens if you leave the 5AT gearbox in "2" and you floor it at 50km/h. Does it downshift to 1st? If it does, that might be an advantage over 6MT in the twisties.

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You know someone in another thread said the auto red lines in 1st at 80kph?! So if that is right you should be able to SS back down to 1st. Report in auto owners...

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...+auto+red+line

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Originally Posted by aaronng

Basically.... the disadvantages that an auto has against a manual:

1) Longer ratios. I'm surprised that even with a 5-speed auto, the Euro's ratios are still long. I would have expected it to reach the same top speed in gear as with older 5-speed manuals.

2) Gear changes on its own. While self-upshift is not an issue with the Euro's 5AT where you can bounce off the limiter, you are still locked out of 1st gear eventhough you are at a suitable speed for it, say at 50km/h.

3) Efficiency. The torque convertor sacrifices RPM to boost torque. That's why autos are quick off the line but up top they are slower than equivalent manuals.

When is an auto better than a manual? When your engine is excessively powerful for your car, such as V8s.

They are not saying that modding an auto doesn't give you gains. They are saying that the auto starts at a performance level lower than the manual. Once you spend $5000++ on Jtune or whatever mods, you'd probably just beat a stock manual. It would make more (financial) sense to go for a manual if you wanted performance or something with a more powerful engine + auto.

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Summed it up nicely. Thanks ;)

My "dead end" in terms is exactly that. By the time you spend $5K on an auto euro, you'll be only catching up to the manual Euro.

With regards to V8's. Since they have so much torque down low you don't need short gearing to keep the revs up. Hence auto has no apparent advantage over manual in V8's.

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Originally Posted by adammet04

Would it be fair to say that top end speed in an Auto Euro is not what people with these cars should be aiming for but improvements in the lowend is better?
In which case i say bring it on!. cause i will (most likely) not drag my car or heavy track duties..im more likely to have it as a street car where the speed limits are enforced neway...

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That's exactly what I was implying. The auto Euro has enough top end speed. Once in VTEC, they are very capable but because of the gearing in the auto, you're always out of VTEC and hence slower (what I believe).

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Originally Posted by aaronng

What happens if you leave the 5AT gearbox in "2" and you floor it at 50km/h. Does it downshift to 1st? If it does, that might be an advantage over 6MT in the twisties.

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It won't shift down for you if it's in sports mode. In full auto maybe, but by the time you floor it at 50km/h, it'll be over 60km/h and you'll be bogged in 2nd for a long time. The auto rarely shifts into 1st for you.....only leaves it in 1st if you floor it from a stand still.