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That would be nice but the fact is it's horses for courses. The LS1 was designed as an affordable V8 motor, whereas companys like BMW and Mercedes Benz and Audi don't design their motors with the same cost at the level of R+D and sales to the public. I believe there is no ' best' V8, just a lot of good ones;)
comparing tune cars is just stupid..whats the fun out of that?
330hp WAW!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by pillow
well my mates N14 Ti pulsar has 320Hp at front wheels and it weighs under a tonne.
and it cost under 10grand.
hes not into drag racing but so dont know what time he would get but if a big old cluncky commodore can get low 12s with only 330hp then that make his car a 10 sec car hey.
his beaten 400hp old school cars most of his mates r into them.
(Chargers, Ford Gts, Mustangs)
and stock to stock i pulled a 13.8 in my s15 when it was stock.
best ive seen from a stock 2002 LS1 at drags is 14.6
what a joke!!!!!!
Holden are so poor they couldnt make a descent 6 cyl they had to pay nissan to use the RB30e, and et to use on their commodore.
No it doesnt make his car a low 10 second car, I dont believe 330hp will get him anywhere near the 10s.. Besides, he then needs to add slicks, fix up driveshafts, gearboxes, CVs etc. All because FWD sucks dick, I know - i had a turbo civic.
AND i have dragged our LS1, ran a 13.7 stock, so obviously the driver of that 2002 LS1 cant drive for shiit ;)
330hp in a commodore might get him low 13s.
y do you think 330hp in a car that weighs round 1600kg will be faster than a 990kg car
same power a 600kg less and this car runs low 12s.
tell u wat!!!!
the odds dont look to good for the LS1.
sorry but i forgot 2 mention my mate with the boosted LS1 had to have 2 rebuilds,
1 was a call back from Holden the other was it couldnt handle boost :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNIT
that would account for 99% of HOLDEN drivers,
CANT DRIVE FOR SHIT!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNIT
please dont compare NISSANS to HONDAS i think that would be quite insulting to ppl in this forum.
I never said it wouldnt be faster then the LS1, did i? Im just saying i dont see about 250fwkw running 10s..
Tuning kills engines mate, fair enough if holden called an engine back, but the other one is either poor management of the engine or a tuning problem.
EDIT: Ill ***en compare it if I want.. The fact of the matter is, you are still going to break driveshafts on a honda :rolleyes:
Dead set you just have an issue with Holdens, your above statements just make you look like an idiot. Such as the one about Holden drivers not being able to drive, its just a huge generalisation
i have no problems with holdens,
i love the utes!!!!!!
i think they look awsome!!!!!
but there is so much more out there in that price range.
and they are so common.
i work in an industry, that i have to go out in power fault situations (eg power poles)
and i have seen so many holdens wrapped around pole its not funny!!!!!
about 80% to be bout right!
i have seen many holdens just loose it!
mainly young guys that think they have same skills and car a Peter Brock!!!
go to a wrecker and youl find what ever your looking for if its Holden.
How hard is it to find ITR parts?????
i was refreing a tuned GTRQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
andhe was refering a Tuned LS
No offence to whoever started this thread but that question about the best v8 was gonna cause arguements from conception. It should have been what's your favourite v8 and why or something. And to all the v8/holden bashers out there, don't be so narrow minded and think there's nothing better than rice and euro. Seen the latest street machine magazine? Twin turbo v8 (can't rememeber the size) torana over 2000 horsepower! Acheivable from a 4 potter? Possibly but the motor would probably only last a few seconds after you shove about 300 pounds into it. Be open minded and be a fan of anything that looks good or goes good. And on that rb30 they shoved in the VL's, note that it only lasted one model until it was replaced? I know the story behind holden replacing it with the buick motor aswell if anyones interested.
Ever had a look at sales figures between Holden's and Type R's? Sheer weight of numbers I think might explain that.Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
gnx1987 - Yep thats Ivan Tesic's Torana on the cover of street machine, 6 second passes:D:D:D Have a look at any number of magazines and you'll see big power Holdens, for example the TRYHRD R8 - 1500-2000hp.:thumbsup:
anyway back on topic,
my favourite is the supercharged v8 in the Mercedes-McLaren SLR :P
Hahahahahahh I don’t think you actually understood me :). I was emphasizing the fact that v8 commodores has a far better engine than an S15 (since we are talking about engines). Your only advantage is weight, hence try stuffing several large mates to your car. Don’t worry it was good for a laugh :)Quote:
Y would i wanna race with mates in the car?????????????
that is the stupidist thing any one would!
You sound like a newb!!!!! Id like to take the whole approach into performance mods. Simply adding on a bigger turbo and injectors and increasing BOOST would certainly not give you a reliable fast car. There’s a lot more things that you would have to look at firstly getting your car in shape, brakes and suspension, exhaust, cooling (bigger radiator, IC, oil cooler and trans cooler), new ecu, beefing up your engines internals (trust me its better to spend extra now than a rebuild later - don’t believe idi0ts that say Nissan engines are good for 6??+ hp stock), change gearing (better responsiveness and less taxing on engine), UP, electronics.Quote:
i only spent 4gs on performance mods on S15 to get 300rwhp.
I only spent 4gs on performance mods on S15 to get 300rwhp.
The S15 has way more potential than any commodore!!!!!!
all that my needed for 400rwhp + was a bigger turbo and bigger injectors thats a another 3000. that’s a high 10sec car
Having a ten second car is not an easy thing...............the fastest Nissan GTR (to my knowledge) in the world is a high 7 sec range, the fastest LS1 is a mid 6 sec. These cars are highly modified and built by tuning houses with lots of $$$$$$. One of the fastest 300zx TT in Australia is a 10 sec car (check out JP's slot car - from unique auto sport), which puts out over 400kw at the wheels.
I’m not saying that its not possible to get a 10 sec car with very minimal mods......what im saying is that its foolish to do so.
The s15 certainly does not have as much potential as a commodore. There’s a supercharger kit out for LS1's for around 3k. There are also several TT setups available, have a look at APS's twin turbo kit for the LS1.
The LS1 in factory form is severely detuned, removing the torque management would greatly improve the cars performance.....
Haha..I sign up today and find a V8 thread talking about LS1s. heh, and I joined just to talk about my gf's new Jazz.
Certainly does. Mine is a HEAVY Calais (about 1850kg with driver, 1770ish without), and it did a 12.949 on a reasonably hot day with simple mods - exhaust, 3.46 diff, different intake, and most importantly - a tune which removed the torque management.Quote:
Originally Posted by monaroCountry
Plenty of potential, that's for sure. My mods all up cost me under $4,000 (and if I wanted to scrimp, I could've gotten away with it all for under $3,000).
Cheers,
- Febs.
Do you have an auto or manual. I think auto has 2 torque management 1 from trans and the other engine. Manual should only have 1, the engine.Quote:
a tune which removed the torque management.
Auto - unfortunately Calais are auto-only.Quote:
Originally Posted by monaroCountry
Any 6sp LS1s (Exec or SS) would've cost me $$$ in insurance. LS1 Calais and Berlina's are cheap as chips to insure, because young guys generally don't drive them. :)
It's fun though. Very comfy, and it makes kills at WSID all the more entertaining when people I've never met make comments like this on random forums:
Ahhh yes, I know the car too well! I raced next to ya at the Creek a few months ago. I thought to myself "piece of cake" and then you pulled a low 13s quarter.
Cheers,
- Febs.
what was ur term speed febs????
108.67mph.Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
Timeslip :)
Cheers,
- Febs.
nice,
i dont have my time slip for my S15 times gave them to the bloke that baught the car.
i did a 13.01 @ 107mph
couple of months later after tuning
i did a 13.2 @ 113mph
1st, 2nd gear were all wheel spin!!!! lol
big difference to what i drive now only 15.2@89mph
my 60ft were around the 2.5, 2.6
Heh, I'm not surprised! 113mph would've easily put you well into the 12s with a decent launch. Most probably a low 12 if your 60ft was 2.5 when you did 13.2!Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
Cheers,
- Febs.
Nothing wrong with auto, especially when dragging. Ive also got an auto. For some cars like mine, an auto is actually faster than a manual (on boost straight away), 0-100. In saying that I still love driving a manual, for some odd reason I find it easier launching a manual than an auto.Quote:
Auto - unfortunately Calais are auto-only.
Any 6sp LS1s (Exec or SS) would've cost me $$$ in insurance. LS1 Calais and Berlina's are cheap as chips to insure, because young guys generally don't drive them.
It's fun though. Very comfy, and it makes kills at WSID all the more entertaining when people I've never met make comments like this on random forums:
my mates VNss runs low 12s with 111, 112mph.
its not a everyday car but!!!!!
his got a 13 sec VK as his daily driver
It's almost a shame to see people make comments about an engine like the GM LS2 based on numbers, heresay and stereotypes.
Most people here will agree that 'best' to one person can mean something completely different to another. Things like power, weight, response, fuel efficiency, reliability, emissions, sound, packaging, history, technology, ideology / philosophy, uniqueness, novelty & COST - play in the minds of people who desire or aspire to own or drive cars with such an engine.
I think it's not surprising to see this much GM / Holden bashing on a Honda forum - but I think some people here are missing out on a lot by flushing the LS2 down the toilet. This engine is remarkable in more ways than you can immediately think.
I'm going to take a chance here by defending this engine. But to show you I am not biased I will let you all know I am a die-hard fan of Honda - I've only owned Hondas, a civic EF and now a integra DC5-R. I'm a fan of Honda F1 and I'd love to one day see that team take podiums and championships.
I am also an engineer. I've worked FOR General Motors HOLDEN down in Port Melbourne in 2003. During my time down there I worked directly in the VW platform (VY to VZ and upcoming VE). I've had my chances to drive a LS1+ (the export monaro known as a Pontiac GTO) and the prototype 6.0L LS2 transplanted into a Monaro for development.
Since the cat has been out of the bag for a while now (The LS2 is being used in the HSVs and soon to the VE range) I can speak relatively freely without being scared of confidentiality agreements.
For such a low-tech, dinosaur pushrodded engine, it's got an extremely low COG for a V8. It's a fantastically packaged, short blocked V8 that sits extremly snug in the engine bay of a car like a Monaro. These are the first impressions.
I had not been a Holden fan of the past, but this experienced changed my opinion and gave me a new RESPECT for this engine. It may not have wizz bang gadgets, vtec/turbo/charger or superlighttitaniumchromemolyalloy crap, but it's an honest, reliable robust block that I KNOW will keep banging on long after most of us in Hondas will be crying foul when our engines have siezed when it's skipped a service!
This LS2 has around 300Kw and around 500Nm of torque. On paper this already sounds like a heavy hitter already! Forget your M5 V10s and AMG V8s because this thing doesn't cost the earth! Forget your silly Mugen V10 race motors and HF1 20,000rpm V8s because this thing will drive to the shops and back and cover over 300,000+kms in easy fashion.
On the road this engine is an absolutely****enfastweapon! It has the best power delivery of ANY car I have driven in - and such will stomp on SUBARU/HONDA/NISSAN - none of their top engines can even come close to replicating the instant surge of torque delivery and driveability this engine can deliver.
And before you roll your eyes at me, yes I have driven turbo STis, a modified 28psi, 300KWATW beast, as well as fit GTRs and bleh - For all the japanese turbo tech, NA is truly best, and what NA can't provide that turbo can, can be made up for DISPLACEMENT. OOOOH YES. The old saying rings true back then, and still rings true TODAY. THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT period
Sure, you can add your variable cam timing and even adjust your valve lift dynamically - but these things can only do so much. You want CUBIC INCHES! The LS2 special equipped Monaro belted easy 13s without breaking a sweat, and would do it ALL day, in an AUTO as well. Whilst the engine was a prototype, the mechanicals are the same as they are now, perhaps differing in ECU tune - because in Autos this engine will spin wheels in upchanges in 2nd and 3rd gears! They had problems with the initial tune in the US because the motor was spinning tyres in their RIMS on the corvettes!
TO explain this to us torqued-challenged honda drivers, the rubber of the wheels was turning so hard during upchanges that the rims were rotating faster than the wheels was turning relative to the road! Yes, rubber was burning INSIDE the wheel!
The LS2 put me so hard in my seat, I made a mention to the trim designers to do something about the padding because it was too soft and I was literally sinking into the seat (much like those EVO 8 ads back then) during heavy acceleration.
Enough of the power; I had experienced an engine in a car that could easily out-accelerate that 300KW STi and probably felt the same as a GTR (on boost) but had far better response and low-end torque these turbo-mills could only dream of. Sure, they would dust the RWD Monaro on a standing start, but on any walking start they would surely have a problem on their hands.
This engine was also more fuel efficient than the LS1. Because there was so much torque, the almost useless 6th gear on the commodores could actually be used because it had the twist to turn it without lugging the engine. We were seeing 700-800 kms on a 70L tank and caning it whenever we had the chance on a open road!
This engine was retuned for australian conditions - you could drive it to the outback in 50 degree outback heat for hours on end and in dust and would still crank time and time again - lets see a tricked up RB26 or a highly strung F20C do that! Pah!
And the glorious sound this beast made. It's not the BEST sounding V8 ever, that silverware goes to the FORD V8 used in the ASTON MARTIN V8 Vantage - Top Gear's Best Engine Sounds AWARD (beating AMGs and F430s mind you!), but the sounds was incredibly seductive and magnificient with all the burbles and pops you'd expect in a true performance engine! You won't get that in any 4-pot torqueless wonder. Don't say to me that "oh but can it rev to 8,000rpm" because this motor doesn't need to and would sound fantastic without bolting on any annoying fart-can exhausts one would do to a 4-pot engine. Don't like the sound of a rich, fat, burbling V8? Then go watch F1, those V8s scream at 20,000rpm. A V8 will ALWAYS sound better than a 4-pot. A Subaru flat-four is a poor man's porsche flat-six!
I walked away from GM Holden with a new respect for their engines. It was Fast, it sounded sexy, it ate miles and miles without problem and it's CHEAP - something an Ordinary Guy could ACTUALLY afford. It passed all the californian CARB emissions laws (which are one of the strictest in the world). All STOCK, no mods, no zorts blah blah blah.
It may not have the same racing heritage, or racing technology like Honda, but I can see why this engine made so many fans of it. You can't just go and say the GM V8 is a pile of junk. That is just so unfair and I made this trouble to enlighten those who have not experienced such a good motor. I still drive and love my K20A2 powered Integra and relish everytime I hit 8,000rpm. The VTEC sends shivers down my spine and the pickup is great. But my engine pleases me in ways a GM V8 cannot. Tastes are different but I am the better man for it to have learnt about something I would've normally cast aside. Don't shaft yourself by underestimating this LS2 V8.
lol and 6L V8 LS commo? my type R eats them for snacks .....but then shits out the other 4 cylenders! lol
i love the new Merc SL 55 AMG version ....freaking awesome and freaking expensive :P
mmm i dont know anything about your car superR but while i certainly dont think the ls2 is the best v8 in the world i would like to see you beat one in a staright line, on a twisty road however the little honda screamer would show the big dumb commo whos boss!.
for the money though the ls2 is a great engine for people who like that sort of thing, hell once upon a time i wanted nothing more than a rumbling commodore v8.
but it really comes down to what people want and after driving my brothers integra while i had a vt commo, well the rest is history ( :honda: :thumbsup: ).
edit: just found that your type r is turboed superR (nice), while this would make it somewhat closer i would still think that the ls2 would come out in front.
I find the LS1 interesting because it brings a V8 engine and its performance to a cost level that can't otherwise be attained. Also, the compact packaging of the engine is amazing as they are able to fit the engine without requiring a bonnet bump like as the Ford V8 requires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
Unfortunately, what most of us want is to be able to give it a fang for performance once in a while, and then at all other times, return 6-8L/100km in the city. That is why many honda owners are proud of VTEC. They have enough pull to beat a stock V8 (even my stock family car beats stock V6s) and at the other 95% of the time, return a fuel consumption figure of less than 10L/100km. And when we go on to the open road, fuel consumption is even lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
We're already having problems with the tyres spinning being FWD, we wouldn't appreciate the fact that the rims were spinning inside the tyre as well. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
What is the RPM in 6th gear when cruising at the speed limit (110km/h)? I get 7L/100km on the open road including many stints up to redline in 2nd gear.That gives me 1000km if I had a 70L tank (my tank's only 65L).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
Stock honda engines are also retuned for australian conditions. So they can go into the outback too and not overheat or fail. But the fact that most hondas are FWD make them unsuitable when offroad in the outback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
It's a personal preference, but I prefer the sound of a flat-plane V8 over that of a cross-plane V8 (GM and Ford V8). In fact, a flat-plane V8 engine sounds like 2 inline-4 engines revving in unison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
F1's V8s are flat plane, and hence sound like 2 inline-4 engines revving together. If you listen to an F1 V8 idling, it sounds like that of an Inline-4 engine!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
As I said, I like the LS1 because it brings V8 to the masses. Not all of us can afford a Ferrari, Aston, Jaguar, Mercedes or BMW V8. Holden and Ford has brought the stuff of dreams to the public at an affordable price with acceptable reliability. It is not a pile of junk. Too bad though that many people like to be different and are proud when we can say that our engine with inferior capacity and fewer cylinders can keep up or even beat larger engines and cars. I'd have to say that I am one of them. But in the future if petrol prices come back to normal, I would like to have a taste of V8. A flat-plane V8 of course!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
You Monarocounty..........GO BACK TO WORK!
Holden may be able to sell a few more cars because of you!
Stop wasting your time here.....
You just like Bush......forcing people to accept your idea without considering their background......Here is OzHonda man.....V8 wtf?
Can u win over the debate? Even if u win......Is it every Honda need to have a V8?
...........-_-"........
GUYS...
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but keep personal attacks and comments out..
It's going to get heated and when it gets heated, it's going to be locked and when it gets locked, people starts spamming about how strict mods are...
SEE how complicated it gets when we are trying to protect members and yet still get the sh*ts... Help us keep it nice and clean and everyone stays happy :D
This is a Honda forum... If this topic goes to a Nissan or Ford forum, same thing is going to happen there....
By the way, I drove my friend's dad new SS... Even in Auto, the car is tail happy and fast :D....
aaronng. Your points are valid, but I refer to the 6.0L LS2, not the 5.7L LS1. These two engines are vastly different from each other in almost every way.
That's because the LS2 is not yet released for the Holden range, only HSV :) . Once Holden starts using it, then the LS2 will take over the reign of "V8 for the masses" position (and will sit beside the LS1 in my books).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
Based on your experience with the LS2, Holden seems to have addressed the issue of the lack of low end grunt in the LS1, which to me was very odd for a 5.7L engine. But I guess it was because the ECU mapping for some reason neglected the lower RPM range.
goooo aarronngg!!!!
locote did you notice the RB30 only lasted one model? I understand this is because they kept cracking heads in the VL. Also aaronng the ls2 has been fast tracked into VZ Holdens since January 1st this year apparently, because of Euro 3 emissions rules. It has 260 kw and 510 Nm on 98 octane and holden claims 14L/100k. Also because of the deadline it doesn't get the displacement on demand or variable valve timing but these things will probably go into the VE when it's released.Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
No doubt the TypeR is a mean handler...but don't write the Commodores off as straight-line material only.Quote:
Originally Posted by matt
A mate of mine has a V2 Series 3 Monaro ('04), bog stock except for a home-made fibreglass intake, a downloaded tune, semi-slicks and some adjustable camber/toe stuff up front.
He's only been to Wakefield a few times, but has done a 1:12.xx and does consistent 1:13:xx's. Another bloke does the same times in his VX SS, again with basic mods (tune, exhaust, diff gears, suspension but not coilovers etc..)
There are SS's doing 1:10's around Wakefield too...so they're not only good in a straight line. Not bad for cars that weigh up to 1,800kg.
Out of pure curiosity, what's a stock (recent model) TypeR do around Wakefield in the hands of a good driver? AndyS mate, if you're reading, feel free to chime in. :) I looked through a few threads but didn't see any times.
Cheers,
- Febs.
**** for my own 2cents the BEST v8 would be the twin turbo out of the bitching old ferrari F40.
sorry guys i've been converted..
i used to hate V8's and i shited on em all day and bagged em out badly.
but i'm going to have to jump and the V8 band wagon..
a while ago i was driving around in my work V8 monaro.
i believe it is the LS1 ( first gen monaro)
i couldnt believe how resposive and powerfull this engine was.
it wasnt like a turbo rush, but it was making constant power all they up to 6.5K rpm ( i think it was) sounded beautiful with extractors and dual piping exhaust.
turned the A/C no power difference.. the car it self wasnt the best ( big turning circle/ steering wheel too big. etc) but the engine felt the business.
it wasnt that bad on fuel either..
it wasnt a four cylinder run of fuel puff efficiency, but for the size and power it was drinking so little then what i expected.
i really think this is a great engine.
and i have been converted.
eventhough the LS serise isnt the best power maker in the world but it wins my votes for user friendly engine ??! lol
BMW S62 engine form the E39 M5. 400hp (298kw) & 369 lb-ft (500nm) from a 5L V8.
thats 5l v8....
b16a is 170hp 155torque 1.6l....
if u
x5 of b16a engine > BMW S62 engine
honda power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus
why would you multiply it by 5 when it only has twice the number of cylinders....
if you work out specifc power, bmw = 400hp/8 = 50hp
b16a = 170/4 = 42.5
bmw still wins
or...per litre....400hp/5l = 80hp/litre
b16a = 170hp/1.6l = 106.25
Uhhhhh... I've never seen specific power worked out as hp per cylinder. It's always hp per litre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_will
and the F20C 240hp/2.0L = 120hp/L of displacement....
and wtf is hp per cylinder? noob!
if per litre
b16
170/1.6 =106.25 hp
honda wins!!!!!!
vtec the power of dreams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol turbo type R.... i wont say the output but its upthere. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by matt
debating specific power outputs is pointless as it's just a factor of the state of tune of the motor.
Anyway...... this is meant to be an 8 cylinder engine thread. So Honda doesn't win! It's short of 4 cylinders and is therefore disqualified from this thread. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus
Im a fan of old school v8s. In particular, the 426 HEMI.
i think the reason they only use 2 valves per cylinder is to save feul
i mean less air means less feul - the power of holden engineering
should try variable lift but then agen they still havent even got DOHC
this would probably be to complex for them
however i was surprised to learn about some of the high comperssions the old hemi ran back when we had leaded feuls like 12 or 13 was it???
yea its nice to drive a car where u put ur foot down and of u go, no downshifts,no screaming, no controll of what gear ur in and ultimately very little controll in a long drift situation or even a sharp turn, causeing the thing to downshift and loose controll
thats the one i driven anyhow
lolz i seriously doubt that the ls2 would have a chance, even if the honda was making half the power of the ls2 it would still have no trouble to pull away even at 180
iv witnessed a race with a 5.7 V-whatever(something like 2004 with the triangle tail lights)
racing a DC2R(modded) suprising results hehe
having two valves as opposed two four is only going to impede the flow of air, not reduce the amount thats going in. you can reduce the inflow of air by having a restrictive intake, theres no need to go ditching valves.Quote:
Originally Posted by crx_boy7
having 4 valves per cylinder would make the engine more efficient, meaning it could make similar power with lower fuel consumption, and besides, youd have to take into account the size of the valves before you started saying that two means less air, for all you know they could be twice the size
I don't know if you've noticed but holden haven't made their own v8 since VT series 1. I actually heard they were developing a sohc 5.0 but gm came along and told them to just use the gen 3. And what the hell are you doing trying to drift an early 70's V8 for? Different cars are made for different reasons. Those old dodges, straight line performance. Little civics, excels, corrollas etc, economy. Even F1 cars can only be raced. Take them on the road and there stuffed. Don't go bagging cars just cause they can't do everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by crx_boy7
Yeah but the reason why they put lead in fuel was to increase the octane rating and reduce chance of detonation.Quote:
Originally Posted by crx_boy7
um -hmm.. less air getting in means less feul needs to be added to make the same feul ratio, the only other large factor is friction and inertiaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr_will
y dont they use a quad cam and make the intake smaller?? i dont know ring holden and ask... mabe the want reduced costs,mebe they want lighter drivetrain, or mebe their just too stupid
and how is a 4 valve going to be more eficient on feul????? hahahahahaha
how the *** can u get more air in with a 2valve engine as opposed to a 4 valve using the same lift and duration ??? r u F***d in the head ??? its obvious that u can make more room for air to travel through using more of the heads surface area.. considering the head in most cases is a flat circle and the valves have to be circles too more of the head can be open to flow air in
if there is more valves. FFS y do u think the toyota 20valve was so popular??
and y dose anything anyone say have to have a comeback on these v8 related discusions??
Totally agree with you there squire. If you are a car fan you'll appreciate what this engine is all about, supercar for the masses, just like the old Hemi's in the 60-70'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Hadean
i love my Honda's, always have, but the sound of a V8 tuned and snorting... pffft vtec sounds like a starter motor in comparison.
I drive all manner of cars from lowly Kia's all the way upto the finest offerings on our roads, and nothing beats the bang for your buck like a big boofy Holden Monaro sideways up Princes Highway! If i had the cash, I'd have one just for the noise alone.
Actually, LS1's valve placement is almost flat, and not at an angle like a 4-valve per cylinder engine. I think it's because of the way the pushrods work that the valve has to be flattish. If you look at this pic of the LS1, I'd say having 3 or 4 valves would drive up the cost and complexity.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...22_29_full.jpg
BTW, having 2 large valves means that air can enter without much restriction at low RPM. But at high RPM, the additional surface area of the 4 (And 5) valve engine gives it a bigger advantage. Since the ORIGINAL design of the pushrod V8 was for a muscle car and emphasised on instant push at normal driving RPM, 2 valves was adequate and in fact a good design to balance between price and performance.
Of course, nowadays with VTEC valve control, having 4 valves at low RPM is better than 2 valves because VTEC allows 1 intake valve to be shut at low RPM so that there is a swirling effect and thus better mixing for low end torque (12 valve operation of the K series engine for the Thai Accord). In fact, when you look at the LS1's 1 intake valve on the side, that too provides better mixing with just a simple cylinder head design!
yea there is a lil more room arond the valve for the air to get in but with the slight angle on 4valve engines there is more room for air to get around anyhow, and a 2valve has to have less flow through the runners compared to a 4 valve, unless the 4valve has unnesaserally small runners
i think the reason is that at lower rpm there isnt as much need for more efficient breathing, like think about ur car at 1500rpm there is no need for full throttle as it will not make worthwile gains after about 1/2 open throttle. its probably the same with the holden and its the cause of its lack of power in the higher rev range
the way the air gets in is by the piston sucking it in so the smaller the runners or the less the valves the more the vacum even at lowwer revs. but at higher revs there is less time for the air to get in so u need a better flowing head
the euros do the best v8s easily... i just dont get how a 6ltr v8 can only produce a meer 300kw.. when an audi v8 FSi can produce 309kw :P yes its 9kw more but its also 1.8 liters smaller.. thats a whole b18 smaller :P. and the ls2 will never be better than a 5.7 hemi (290kw) from the yanks just for the pure fact its a hemi..
2 bseries or kseries engine welded together will work a treat lol...
there's too many restrictions for the ozzy market. the 6L motor has great potential, my mate has a VE SS with cold air intake, extractors, full exhaust and bigger cam and it made 309kw atw! Same mods on my cousins 5.7L made 283kw atw.Quote:
Originally Posted by gmonkey
Hemi motors are tuff and powerfull but so can the Chevs.
C63 AMG 6.2l is just unreal, lots of power and torque, it sh#ts all over LS engines, the other fully sick V8 is new M3s powerplant, 4.0l revs to 8500rpm
W T F?
3 Year old thread revival?????
But to contribute.... Suzuki H2a-b. 2.8L v8 pushing close to 350kw NA. Not sure how many were built... but some companies having been making their own blocks based on Hayabusa's*** lol
*** Seen here
Same company also does some funky stuff to k20's
Nice, but those engines would need a rebuild every few ten's of thousands km. Unlike the C63 AMG's engine, which is actually detuned from the original!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chernoby1
hate to break to you all but to be quite honest this is how it works.
best V8 for economy, reliability and street power definatly OHC
best V8 for ALL OUT POWER Push Rod.
name a TOP FUEL Drag car with a OHC Making 8000hp????????
Funny cars ETC all rev beyond 10,000rpm and there push rod
i rest my case
It is not the head that determines the max RPM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Age_S2000
8000hp comes from running a supercharger at 45 psi and nitromethane. Don't compare them to a street car running 98 octane. haha.
the OP doesn't ask for best street car engine it jusy says best v8 engine in the world
you can't go past a Keith Black Hemi as i'm sure i already mentioned in this thread a year or 2 ago lol
just re-thought my answer due to its not just road legal engines all of a sudden.. and i believe it's by far got to be the Honda RA806E 90-degree V8
At how many rpm does it make this horsepower? How much torque does it make and at what rpm? How much does one of these engines cost? How much more accurate is the air fuel ratio due to FSI? How much would it cost to fix? How much would it cost to modify (if you could modify it assuming you may want to modify it one day)?Quote:
Originally Posted by gmonkey
Don't forget there's more than one number to look at when you're talking about how good an engine is.
If there was a bang for buck competition. I reckon the ls engines would win hands down.
Pretty sure ferrari and audi and the like would invest more money into its air/fuel ratio systems than a bulk producing company like GM, a matter of fact i know they do, companies like ferrari use great loads of real life testing, they will put an engine through the worst and make sure everything works proper, hence why you pay that higher premuim for quality, rather than GM that mass produces its v8s making it a cheaper alternative, if you want to call it that... a commodore will last what 10-20 years where in which you will spend thousands every year to keep it alive, a ferrari will run and run and run, yes the parts will be greater but you won't need to replace everything all the time compared and at the end of the day you have a friggen ferrari in your garage which will be classic not some commodore used for ramraids on a local deli.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnx1987
Also you forget to mention one key thing with all these cars.. weight. It's all good having all this torque and then dumping it in 2 tonne family 4 door car or in the case or a monaro a 2 door commodore:p. OK cost is a big factor ey, pretty sure the atom 500 (another european idea) is cheaper than any 'muscle' car at the same level of performace, yes it dont have 'luxuries' e.g. a roof or windscreen but the topic was best engine in the end. And the atoms engine is based off a motorbike! oh well ive done enough rambling and defending the point euros do a better job in my mind.. still stand by honda have done the best V8 engine though (money being no object that is:P)
also how much does a corvette or a camaro cost now days?? cause i know the holden version only has 362 hp (270 kW) at 5700 rpm and 391 ft·lbf (530 Nm) at 4400 rpm. which isn't that great
LS3 in the MY09 HSV's onwards. 317kw.Quote:
Originally Posted by gmonkey
still only 0-100 in 4.9... pretty dull. And why is it that holden acttually de-mod there engines.. they have less tech in them than the yanks.. look at the l76/l98 no displacement on demand tech, only get it on autos in my09 model
for outright power... the f1 v8's lol.
Does the E92 BMW M3 V8 not rate high enough?
-309 kW/420 hp from 4.0 litres
-Maximum torque of 400 Newton-metres (295 lb-ft) at 3, 900 rpm, 85 per cent of maximum torque over a speed range of 6,500 rpm
Nah man, cause you running on pump juice and street machines...
These kids rolling with the big boys with their racing motties and racing fuel! :O
F1 V8 > All lol
Though the Powertec V8s (Two Hayabusa engines joined together) that power the Radical cars are pretty sexy too =D
And why the hell are you looking at power figures for American Small/Big blocks? You should be looking at their torque rating, much more impressive...
If reliability and engine life are not in cosideration the yes F1 def wins no question, drip feed oil and all :p
the euro's own, but how dammm expensive!! gotta love the m3 engine tho.
but hey, i'm hanging out to see the new camaro SS. that push rod will sound like a dreammmm
they probably detune them so when the next model comes out they can give consumers another reason to get the latest by increasing the power a bit without having to spend a cent.Quote:
Originally Posted by gmonkey
it would be a pretty dumb consumer who buys a VE for example and decides they need to buy a whole new MY09 jsut for an extra 17 or so kws. I can think of money better spent...well i can think of money being better spent on something other than a commodore in the first place :P. Holden can't make good V8s....
Holden haven't built a V8 since the old 5L, the rest are Chevrolet. Picky I know :pQuote:
Originally Posted by gmonkey