NEW 2009 Euro Luxury Auto Pinging

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Originally Posted by buddah51au

Pinging is a pre combustion sound, not a post combustion sound....sure they may sound similar, but they are 2 different things. Pre ignition caused by high compression or ign timing too far advanced usually leaves a tell tale sign on the spark plugs.

After almost 2000km of having this problem I removed the spark plugs yesterday to check for any tell tale signs and they are burning completely clean with no sign of pre ignition.

This satisfies my mind that it is a post combustion sound a stated by Honda.

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Not so. Pinging/pinking/knocking is a post combustion sound/event. I have posted the following extract before and here it is again. The full article is worth a read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking "Knocking (also called knock, detonation or spark knock, pinking in UK English or pinging in US English) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines occurs when combustion of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder starts off correctly in response to ignition by the spark plug, but one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front. The fuel-air charge is meant to be ignited by the spark plug only, and at a precise time in the piston's stroke cycle. The peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The shock wave creates the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and cylinder pressure increases dramatically. Effects of engine knocking range from inconsequential to completely destructive. It should not be confused with pre-ignition (or preignition), as they are two separate events."

And:

"Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is a technically different phenomenon from engine knocking, and describes the event wherein the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. Pre-ignition is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events."

lol just quietly im over with it is pre or post or prepost arguement.

i just want it fixed resolved and never have this problem again. simple as that

update, my dealer said that they have received a memo that are able to repair the pinging noise. Service will be calling me on Monday and hopefully get some more info then

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Originally Posted by shakkas

lol just quietly im over with it is pre or post or prepost arguement.

i just want it fixed resolved and never have this problem again. simple as that

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werd. Hope you get it resolved soon Shakkas. :)

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Originally Posted by shakkas

update, my dealer said that they have received a memo that are able to repair the pinging noise. Service will be calling me on Monday and hopefully get some more info then

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Your service centre updated you on a Sunday????
That's service!!!

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Originally Posted by SPQR

Not so. Pinging/pinking/knocking is a post combustion sound/event. I have posted the following extract before and here it is again. The full article is worth a read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking "Knocking (also called knock, detonation or spark knock, pinking in UK English or pinging in US English) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines occurs when combustion of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder starts off correctly in response to ignition by the spark plug, but one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front. The fuel-air charge is meant to be ignited by the spark plug only, and at a precise time in the piston's stroke cycle. The peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The shock wave creates the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and cylinder pressure increases dramatically. Effects of engine knocking range from inconsequential to completely destructive. It should not be confused with pre-ignition (or preignition), as they are two separate events."

And:

"Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is a technically different phenomenon from engine knocking, and describes the event wherein the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. Pre-ignition is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events."

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you read too many books on theory., so call it what you will. I wonder how much practical experience you have rebuilding engines. The most important thing is at is not pre ignition, which by the way can also be caused by incorrect ignition timing. It is definitely a post combustion sound.

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Originally Posted by buddah51au

you read too many books on theory., so call it what you will. I wonder how much practical experience you have rebuilding engines. The most important thing is at is not pre ignition, which by the way can also be caused by incorrect ignition timing. It is definitely a post combustion sound.

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Lol. You've worked out that we are in agreement; that it is a post-combustion sound just as Honda said and that it is pinging/pinking/knock and not pre-ignition.

However, I doubt that pre-ignition can be caused by incorrect ignition timing because by definition pre-ignition is an event that occurs before the spark plug fires and the spark plug can only fire when it is timed to do so. Once the spark plug fires then a "sound" event is post-combustion.

No, I have no experience in rebuilding engines and I respect those that do as I grew-up around cars; spending my spare moments in car workshops of one sort or another; watching.

Pax Vobiscum.

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Originally Posted by SPQR

Lol. You've worked out that we are in agreement; that it is a post-combustion sound just as Honda said and that it is pinging/pinking/knock and not pre-ignition.

However, I doubt that pre-ignition can be caused by incorrect ignition timing because by definition pre-ignition is an event that occurs before the spark plug fires and the spark plug can only fire when it is timed to do so. Once the spark plug fires then a "sound" event is post-combustion.

No, I have no experience in rebuilding engines and I respect those that do as I grew-up around cars; spending my spare moments in car workshops of one sort or another; watching.

Pax Vobiscum.

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We are not in agreement at all, engine pinging in the trade is pre ignition, not post ignition.

Well I posted previously that I had no pinging but now I'm not so sure? I've done 2300km's on the Euro now and it's had this metal ball rattling noise coming from the engine for awhile now. It used to happen only when on low revs / gear but it also seems to occur while I'm cruising on the freeway at 100km/h.

This kind of noise I used to hear in my 350Z but it was once off only every now and then and the car was 3 years old, so I thought it was normal.

I normally have the stereo on so I don't worry too much about that rattling noise ...

Alright I have contacted my dealership to see if they know anything about this pinging noise and what they have stated is the software and component upgrade will be available mid June and to contact Honda Customer Relations to register my vehicle once the fix becomes available.

So for the record in Perth - for this dealership (Prestige Honda) anyway there's only about 3 people's that's recorded as having reported the pinging issue!

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Originally Posted by buddah51au

We are not in agreement at all, engine pinging in the trade is pre ignition, not post ignition.

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Your trade is in error. And there is nothing wrong with reading books. They are a store-house of knowledge. Otherwise we'd have to remember everything.

http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarti...tentId=7009025

http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Engine_knocking

http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=104

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...20471/knocking

http://dictionary.babylon.com/engine%20knocking

And from the MRT Performance website:



"Detonation (also called knock, knocking or spark knock, pinking or pinging) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines occurs when combustion of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder starts off correctly in response to ignition by the spark plug, but one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front. The fuel-air charge is meant to be ignited by the spark plug only, and at a precise time in the piston's stroke cycle. The peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The shock wave creates the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and cylinder pressure increases dramatically. Effects of engine knocking range from inconsequential to completely destructive. It should not be confused with pre-ignition (or preignition), as they are two separate events."


"Pre-ignition: Another condition that is sometimes confused with detonation is "pre-ignition." This occurs when a point within the combustion chamber becomes so hot that it becomes a source of ignition and causes the fuel to ignite before the spark plug fires. This, in turn, may contribute to or cause a detonation problem.

Instead of the fuel igniting at the right instant to give the crankshaft a smooth kick in the right direction, the fuel ignites prematurely (early) causing a momentarily backlash as the piston tries to turn the crank in the wrong direction. This can be very damaging because of the stresses it creates. It can also localize heat to such an extent that it can partially melt or burn a hole through the top of a piston!

Pre-ignition can also make itself known when a hot engine is shut off. The engine may continue to run even though the ignition has been turned off because the combustion chamber is hot enough for spontaneous ignition. The engine may continue to run-on or "diesel" and chug erratically for several minutes.

To prevent this from happening, some engines have a "fuel cutoff solenoid" on the carburetor to stop the flow of fuel to the engine once the ignition is turned off. Others use an "idle stop solenoid" that closes the throttle completely to shut of the engine's air supply. If either of these devices is misadjusted or inoperative, run-on can be a problem. Engines with electronic fuel injection don't have this problem because the injectors stop spraying fuel as soon as the ignition is turned off."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPQR

Your trade is in error. And there is nothing wrong with reading books. They are a store-house of knowledge. Otherwise we'd have to remember everything.

http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarti...tentId=7009025

http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Engine_knocking

http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=104

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...20471/knocking

http://dictionary.babylon.com/engine%20knocking

And from the MRT Performance website:



"Detonation (also called knock, knocking or spark knock, pinking or pinging) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines occurs when combustion of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder starts off correctly in response to ignition by the spark plug, but one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front. The fuel-air charge is meant to be ignited by the spark plug only, and at a precise time in the piston's stroke cycle. The peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The shock wave creates the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and cylinder pressure increases dramatically. Effects of engine knocking range from inconsequential to completely destructive. It should not be confused with pre-ignition (or preignition), as they are two separate events."


"Pre-ignition: Another condition that is sometimes confused with detonation is "pre-ignition." This occurs when a point within the combustion chamber becomes so hot that it becomes a source of ignition and causes the fuel to ignite before the spark plug fires. This, in turn, may contribute to or cause a detonation problem.

Instead of the fuel igniting at the right instant to give the crankshaft a smooth kick in the right direction, the fuel ignites prematurely (early) causing a momentarily backlash as the piston tries to turn the crank in the wrong direction. This can be very damaging because of the stresses it creates. It can also localize heat to such an extent that it can partially melt or burn a hole through the top of a piston!

Pre-ignition can also make itself known when a hot engine is shut off. The engine may continue to run even though the ignition has been turned off because the combustion chamber is hot enough for spontaneous ignition. The engine may continue to run-on or "diesel" and chug erratically for several minutes.

To prevent this from happening, some engines have a "fuel cutoff solenoid" on the carburetor to stop the flow of fuel to the engine once the ignition is turned off. Others use an "idle stop solenoid" that closes the throttle completely to shut of the engine's air supply. If either of these devices is misadjusted or inoperative, run-on can be a problem. Engines with electronic fuel injection don't have this problem because the injectors stop spraying fuel as soon as the ignition is turned off."

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Never argue with a professor who believes his books are 100% correct, even though theory has been proven wrong many times.