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i dont believe honda wanted the CTR to have the most power and torque in the first place. Honda didnt want to join the turbo wagon, they wanted the raw n/a power.
my bad for leaving out the megane but i havnt driven that one yet..and i think in the long run the CTR will have a better resale. Im not going to start on the french cars. I also think that the CTR will end up havin much better sales figures than the megane also.
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Originally Posted by ginganggooly
i agree with u on that one!
Yeah, labour in the UK is much higher than in Japan. The JDM CTR costs about AU$27-28,000.
I think you're missing the point here as it sounds like you work for Honda.Quote:
Originally Posted by UNLS1
If Honda is giving the car for a song, yes, then I believe there's nothing to complain about, but the car is hardly cheap at 40K, and Honda AU is just banking on the Type R Badge to sell the car.
One does not need to be in the market with intention to purchase, if the car is appealing enough, it would start to compel people to think about buying it.
While the UK Type R will appeal to some, it will not appeal to others. Myself, I would not even consider this car because there's really nothing special about ti other than the Badge. I wouldn't mind testing one to see if it changes my mind, but I think the Honda dealer near my home thinks I'm a poor kid cause drive a boom boom EG civic and would never give me a test drive.....LOL.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the reason why there seems to be so much emotion about this new CTR is that a lot of ppl have invested a lot of their goodwill in to Type R which has been borne about by an appreciation for cars such as the DC2R (and maybe to a lesser extent, the AU DC5R (but that's a whole can of worms there)). When Honda no longer delivers on something we've invested in in the past (both emotionally and financially), then we feel betrayed that our beliefs can be so easily dismissed for the sake of what Honda believes will bolster their bottom line by raking in more of the masses.
So what is it about Type R which manages to evoke such emotion and a faithful following that makes this new CTR so grating for people like me?. Well, when I sit back and think about the amount of effort that Honda had put in to the DC2R, and I mean the minute detail things, I can see that a bunch of Honda people really devoted a LOT of thought and effort in to feel, performance, and dynamic factors that are most likely irrelevant to 90% of drivers. I like that a lot. It's the same reason why Rolex makes diver's watches that can go to depths that most people wouldn't even dream to venture. Conversely, the new CTR instead places a LOT of thought and effort into compromising a package to suit the 90% of drivers who couldn't give two tosses as to why the car is not fitted with an LSD.
What does that tell me about Honda being an exceptional company full of clever engineers? (or so the advertising goes). They may well have had their best brains work on this CTR, but the end result smacks you in the face that the engineers just conceded to the bean counters and the PR men who think they can sell this car off spin and advertising, and the red H...cos... no one really cares whether it's faster, or lighter or cleverer than the last one, so long as we can get enough people to think they're sharing something with Jenson Button through marketing words and pictures, we'll make a mint!.
I'm more of the opinion that if Honda can win me over with technical accomplishment, then they can have my money, and all the money from people who will look at what they've created with a respect from a technical accomplishment viewpoint as opposed to just applying engineering in the fields of marketing and advertising to appeal to those that would be impressed by red starter buttons instead of (in my opinion) more impressive things like moving the gearlever's centre of mass back and downwards for mass centralisation and reducing the CoG.
In the past (as Honda Japan does now), we see a whole load of technical data and detail describing what changes they've made and how and why. I don't see any of these sort of details with the new UK CTR. Is it because they don't see that boasting about saving money with a torsion beam rear setup and the omission of an LSD cos "they can get away with it" would make very good text?.
I think if we just sit back and say, aww...ok, we should just be thankful that we get anything at all, we end up getting what we settle for. i.e. mediocrity. I won't buy in to that. We know Honda can do better. It's just that we can't get our hands on it...
slipangle hit the nail square on the head; the new aussie delivered ctr represents a pretty cynical exercise in marketing and badge engineering. I can't help but feel let down that Honda hands us this car, tells us it's a type-r and expects us to suck it up hook, line and fishing sinker.
My guess is that Honda don't really care if they alienate the enthusiast community, because it ain't where the money is. If nothing else, it's a pity they don't bring of the jap CTR as a hero model...
its good to see that different point of view! i guess in a way ive been bought up on different markets and ive had/owned alot of V8 cars and moving to hondas was a lil hard.
I guess im also excited to have an exciting car as for the last 3 years ive been here there hasnt been any exciting cars at all. (i didnt find the type S teg that great)
I missed the boat selling all the old ones but thats the way it is! i was in V8 land back then!
yeah they are gonna bring out the jap ctr when they are already selling FOUR variations of the same chasis? australia is too small of a market to be able to support 2 type R's at the same time, especially when we already have the civic sport in the sedan line upQuote:
Originally Posted by ginganggooly
another thing is many honda owners have been demanding a decent hatch, seeing as we havent really had anything good since the EK4 in aust.
It may not be perfect but it fits that mould. the FN2 will be suffiecnt to most peoples needs and will satisfy most ppl bar the weekend racers. While the car might not match some people's expectations of the Type R badge, honda aust will have no probs selling their allotment of the FN2.
oh and people keep mentioning the megane in comparison..... i have heard so many horror stories of engines dying and various quality control issues from both ex owners and from dealers its not funny. it'd be ashamed if honda put out something like that
Actually, if they brought the Japanese Civic Type R in, I would put a deposit for it straight away.
just a few more thousand deposits and we mite get one! (per state):DQuote:
Originally Posted by e240
did you ever think that this also justifies their need for brembos? CTR doesnt have more power, more torque, more capacity, nor a turbo, hence it wont build up enough inertia to need brembo brakes. a formula 1 driver tested the CTR on the track, he felt that it was fun and felt like a Type R if you kept it above 5000rpm, so you cant really complain until you start pushing it that hard, and if its good enough for an F1 driver, why should we complain?Quote:
Originally Posted by ginganggooly
so far most of the problems seem liveable. its not like the engine is gonna drop out and flip the car whilst driving at 60km/h, which is the target audience, people who dont want a fast car but wouldnt mind a car with a bit of sportyness.
you also cant really compare JDM Civic to AUDM Civic, because their car might be cheaper, but it costs them around $2000 for the first 3 years rego, and then another $2000 or so for every other 2 years of rego, so they need a lower price to appeal. we pay half that, if even that for rego over here.
that and the government would probably find a way to make a killing out of it. ie. The Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution would also cost around $40000 if mitsubishi dealers didnt have to comply it thru SEVS (from what i hear, this was brought in by the government, so they have to), so even if we got the JDM CTR, it would cost $40000 if not more. most people would probably flame my stupidity for this, but as far as i am aware, there's also a rule that states that you can no longer import a vehicle if a vehicle of the same chassis is already available locally from the factory.
that and i dont think anyone would want to import it anyway. with the sevs importing scheme, last time i checked, dealers have to pay $20k to buy the licence to import the vehicle, plus pay to have models of the vehicle crash tested (so you'd probably end up forking out $81000 to buy three CTRs to have them smashed to bits), then they have to pay a rather large chunk of the sale price of the vehicle for Sevs as well. So thats like $100k before you even start selling a car that most people wouldnt pay for, because honestly, if people wanted power, why fork out $40000 for a 200bhp car when for the same price, or less, you could import an Evo VI, GTR34, GT-T, RX7, etc.?
We could just conclude that the Type R is a safer sports car for its price bracket, designed on allowing people to have a bit of fun with minimal chance of wrapping it around a pole like most people seem to do when they get their hands on a high powered turbo rwd.
personally, i think fwd is more fun, but thats just my opinion.
My non-car friends all like the CTR, it seems to be getting that mass market appeal.
As much as the JDM FD2 sedan is a better performance drivers car than our CTR FN2 (haven't driven them but it seems that way), I am not sure the sedan would have had as much mass market appeal.
Sure us Type R/Honda fans would love it, heck if the FD2 came here I'd sell a kidney, but I think the hatch is appealing to the broader Aus market.
What I don't understand is that the JDM FD2 is $13000 cheaper, that's a huge profit margin Honda AU could be making even for selling less cars.