Lowering Euro and other suspension mods

well i had my car lowered on coilovers and the handling improved -there was a reduction in body roll etc but that is mainly due to firmer spring rates and higher dampening rates than stock, not lower center of gravity (althought im sure it plays a part). Adding a sway bar, strut brace and lower arm bar after this really did make a big difference (almost as much as the coilovers did).

lowering will help obviously.. but if its just springs the stock shocks really cant cope with much more than 1.5" lowering or so ive read/been told. youll probably do more harm then good to the cars overal composure in the long run as the stock shocks begin to give way and your ride becomes bouncy etc...

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Originally Posted by yfin

Prediction. You will disagree with me right up until the day you install the thicker rear sway bar and strut brace. I guess it depends on how you drive and corner - but you don't know what you are missing. :p When people on this forum rave about mods like the Whiteline rear sway - they are not overstating things - it is fantastic.

Anyway - back to topic - Eurosp what have you decided to do? It has been a month or two since this thread started

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Paypall me the funds then i'll give you an opinion :p

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Originally Posted by yfin

A thicker rear sway bar has a far greater difference to handlng than lowering the Euro - I know as I did the sway first.

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What springs and dampers did you use to lower the car?

Also, have you tried the upgraded springs and dampers with the original swaybar? I've been advised that the swaybar only makes a big difference when the springs and dampers aren't doing their job so well i.e. that if you have a good set of sports springs and dampers the swaybar will only make a noticeable difference under very high cornering pressure.

The guys I ordered my Mugen Sports Suspension (which I'm still waiting for) from advised me to see the difference the kit makes before spending money on stuff like swaybars and strut braces. I also find it interesting that Mugen don't make any other suspension mods for the Euro apart from the Sports Suspension kit (CL9) and the adjustable coilovers (CL7). Perhaps they've decided that the chasis is stiff and well balanced enough to not need anything else?

Also worth mentioning is that both Mugen suspension options lower the car by only 25mm. Perhaps Mugen has found that lowering the Euro's centre of gravity doesn't help too much?

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

What springs and dampers did you use to lower the car?

Also, have you tried the upgraded springs and dampers with the original swaybar? I've been advised that the swaybar only makes a big difference when the springs and dampers aren't doing their job so well i.e. that if you have a good set of sports springs and dampers the swaybar will only make a noticeable difference under very high cornering pressure.

The guys I ordered my Mugen Sports Suspension (which I'm still waiting for) from advised me to see the difference the kit makes before spending money on stuff like swaybars and strut braces. I also find it interesting that Mugen don't make any other suspension mods for the Euro apart from the Sports Suspension kit (CL9) and the adjustable coilovers (CL7). Perhaps they've decided that the chasis is stiff and well balanced enough to not need anything else?

Also worth mentioning is that both Mugen suspension options lower the car by only 25mm. Perhaps Mugen has found that lowering the Euro's centre of gravity doesn't help too much?

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i had my coilovers put on before my sway bar and strut bar. The really do make a difference toward the cars limit and generally speaking the car is flatter and more controlled because of them. Because the coilovers are setup with a more sporty bias compared with the stock suspension the bars probably aren't working as hard, but yea you do still notice a difference.

I think the reason the mugen suspension only lowers the car 25mm is because that's all the stock shocks can really take. At the end of the day it's always better to get well matched springs and shocks or coilovers than just lowering springs.

Sway bar + strut bar mods come highly reccomended from me - whiteline sway bar is only 200 bucks or so brand new. give it a try i doubt you'll regret it

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Originally Posted by Ferrarista

lol you say i have no clue about the cars and your asking me how a good well balanced chassis can make a difference with handling? If you dont know what that is then i wont argue with it because you wont understand.

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Chassis affect the car's rigidity, weight, safety and overall strength. It has very little in how the car handles directly. Even with a well balanced chassis, if you have leaf springs then it's not gonna help handling. On the contrary, improvement in suspension can improve handling even if the chassis isn't all that well balanced. See what will happen if you replace the whole suspension of the S2000, which has a very well balanced chassis, with suspension from a Civic GLi.

Chassis doesn't give me any feedback, other than rigidity. Suspension gives you most of the feedback.

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

i had my coilovers put on before my sway bar and strut bar. The really do make a difference toward the cars limit and generally speaking the car is flatter and more controlled because of them. Because the coilovers are setup with a more sporty bias compared with the stock suspension the bars probably aren't working as hard, but yea you do still notice a difference.

I think the reason the mugen suspension only lowers the car 25mm is because that's all the stock shocks can really take. At the end of the day it's always better to get well matched springs and shocks or coilovers than just lowering springs.

Sway bar + strut bar mods come highly reccomended from me - whiteline sway bar is only 200 bucks or so brand new. give it a try i doubt you'll regret it

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The non-adjustable Mugen Sports suspension kit is not just springs, but a matched set of springs and shocks. The adjustables are COILOVERS. Both alternatives lower the car by only 25mm. As far as I know, Mugen does not sell lowering springs alone i.e. without matched shocks.

I've got a Whiteline swaybar and Whiteline front and rear strut braces on my Integra LS, which I put on AFTER installing Eibach Pro Kit springs and Koni Yellow shocks. The bar and braces did make a difference to the cornering even at moderately high speeds, but the LS has more inherent chasis flex than the Euro and the Eibach springs are progressive rate, so they deliberately allow for body roll at initial compression. The point my 'expert advisor' was making about the Mugen set-up, which has fixed rate springs, is that it is so well sorted that, along with the inherent stiffness and balance of the Euro chasis, it makes upgraded swaybars and strut braces somewhat redundant for the street at anything but extreme cornering speeds.

Btw, I should note that the stiffness produced on my LS by the upgraded rear swaybar and front and rear strut braces can be quite a hinderance to roadholding on rough corners. This was especially apparent once I installed the strut braces, which was after the swaybar.

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Originally Posted by Slugoid

Chassis affect the car's rigidity, weight, safety and overall strength. It has very little in how the car handles directly. Even with a well balanced chassis, if you have leaf springs then it's not gonna help handling. On the contrary, improvement in suspension can improve handling even if the chassis isn't all that well balanced. See what will happen if you replace the whole suspension of the S2000, which has a very well balanced chassis, with suspension from a Civic GLi.

Chassis doesn't give me any feedback, other than rigidity. Suspension gives you most of the feedback.

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I suspect you are quite wrong. Professional testers constantly refer to chasis feedback. The suspension and the 'base' chasis work together. In fact, the effects of swaybars and springs are often referred to as chasis characteristics i.e. they are considered to be (bolt-on) parts of the chasis.

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

Btw, I should note that the stiffness produced on my LS by the upgraded rear swaybar and front and rear strut braces can be quite a hinderance to roadholding on rough corners. This was especially apparent once I installed the strut braces, which was after the swaybar.

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That's an interesting comment and well worth considering for any1 upgrdaing the handling. My old car suffered very badly from road holding on rough corners and I was close to getting a strut brace and rear sway bar, lucky I didn't.

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

The point my 'expert advisor' was making about the Mugen set-up, which has fixed rate springs, is that it is so well sorted that, along with the inherent stiffness and balance of the Euro chasis, it makes upgraded swaybars and strut braces somewhat redundant for the street at anything but extreme cornering speeds.

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Hey - my set up is as close to your proposed Mugen set up as anyone else on this forum. Same drop, springs and shocks made by Showa, etc. Totally fine by me if you believe swaybars and strut braces are redundant if you just change springs and shocks. The only problem with this view is some of us have tried and tested these changes and know the difference they can make in daily driving - not just extreme cornering.

It is strange that the people in this post who are "so so" or questioning the benefits of a strut brace and sway bar are the people who do not have these mods on the Euro. Even the comment amount the sway bar re "road holding on rough corners" - irrelevant IMO as the comment was not made about the mod on the Euro. Different cars, different handling characteristics.

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Originally Posted by yfin

Hey - my set up is as close to your proposed Mugen set up as anyone else on this forum. Same drop, springs and shocks made by Showa, etc.

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Are you the same person who recently stated that you do not know what the spring and damping rates are on your suspension? If so, surely you don't think that the drop height and name of manufacturer are enough to conclude that the set up is as close to the Mugen SS "as anyone on this forum"?

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Totally fine by me if you believe swaybars and strut braces are redundant if you just change springs and shocks.

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Where did I say that I believe it? I merely shared what somebody else had suggested.

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The only problem with this view is some of us have tried and tested these changes and know the difference they can make in daily driving - not just extreme cornering.

It is strange that the people in this post who are "so so" or questioning the benefits of a strut brace and sway bar are the people who do not have these mods on the Euro.

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The person who made the suggestion that with the Mugen Sports Suspension the Euro does not have much to gain from swaybars and strut braces in other than very high cornering speeds repairs and modifies cars for a living, specialising in Honda, and has apparently done about half a dozen suspension upgrades on Euros.

Also, I wonder whether you missed the point as to why Mugen have decided not to make any suspension mods for the Euro other than the SS kit and the alternative adjustable coilovers? Is it because they have failed to adequately consider what swaybars and strut braces could do for the Euro?

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Even the comment amount the sway bar re "road holding on rough corners" - irrelevant IMO as the comment was not made about the mod on the Euro. Different cars, different handling characteristics.

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The comment was very relevant, even if you might have missed the relevance.

Firstly, there was a post suggesting that the chasis minus the suspension mods does not affect road-holding. When you speak of "different cars different handling characteristics" I presume you mean that the same 'bolt-on" (springs, shocks, bars, braces etc) suspension bits will have a different effect on different cars depending on the base chasis. That point was made implicitly in my post, with the aim of saying that it is not only the springs, shocks, bars, braces that affect handling, but also the base chasis characteristics that affect roadholding.

Secondly, stiffening up the chasis and suspension TOO MUCH can have a detrimental effect on the rough road cornering of ANY car. This is obviously something worth considering when upgrading bars, springs, shocks and adding braces to any car, if you want to make sure you strike a good balance. You've obviously struck the right balance on your car - at least for your taste and conditions. On my Integra, the result is awesome handling on smooth roads at the expense of lack of cornering composure on rough or uneven surfaces. It is more than reasonable for me to be cautious about going down the same road when considering upgrades for the Euro, which is the main reason why I am engaging in this discussion.

My question to you, which I posed previously, is have you tried your upgraded shocks and springs with the standard swaybar and without the strut brace?

aleksandrov- sorry I can't be bothered responding to everything in your post. I am not saying my suspension is the same as your wiz bang amazing Mugen SS. I am saying my configuration is as close as you will find on this forum. As for your Mugen expert - if he was so good and experienced in all things Euro - he would tell you the $200 thicker sway bar is a great mod for the money. Better bang for buck than your suspension kit. Lower your Euro as much as you like - dump it on its ass - you are still going to get plenty of body roll around corners.

And who gives what Mugen does in its development? You are suggesting that because mugen doesn't have a particular modification - other manufacturer's must be wasting their time? That is ridiculous. Long bow to draw.

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

I suspect you are quite wrong. Professional testers constantly refer to chasis feedback. The suspension and the 'base' chasis work together. In fact, the effects of swaybars and springs are often referred to as chasis characteristics i.e. they are considered to be (bolt-on) parts of the chasis.

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Dude, like i said before there is no point explaining it because they simply wont get it even if you tried. Its one of those things that you either know or dont and it usually stems from a great knowledge of motor racing.