Motor Magazine (September 07)

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Originally Posted by Jaso

I dont agree with your comments. I think what the former Holden boss was saying was that some manufacturers engineer their cars to score 5 stars in ANCAP etc to form the basis of a marketing tool, NOT to crash as well as possible in all circumstances.

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to a certain extent, I find myself agreeing with what you said. I noticed a few car manufacturers flaunting their crash rating, and combining it with safety acronyms such as ABS/EBD/TCS/VSA/etc to give the illusion that the car is a much safer alternative than their nearest rivals. and as such, people may have a higher inclination to get that said vehicle, simply because they've already been primed mentally to feel safer as a result of such crash ratings/safety acronyms.

I think car manufacturers should just put stickers of what features they have at the back of the car. I remember seeing that quite often with the Rovers from days before, especially when ABS was getting phased in. should work a charm. :p

Why do people think a heavier car is safer than a lighter car in an accident?

Perhaps in a 2 car collision the heavier one might have the 'advantage' but it still depends on the structural integrity and design of the car in question. A lighter safety shell doesnt necessarily make it less stronger than a bigger one. 2ndly you got to think about where the extra weight is actually coming from. Such as RWD, bigger engine, bigger everything else, etc.

In a single car accident I think I'll much prefer to be in a lighter car but with a relatively strong safety cell (A-Class or Yaris, both very safe cars btw). If I hit a stationary wall or a pole the lighter car will slow down much much quicker and the deceleration g-force i encounter hopefully won't send me into shock and kill me. hmmmm.

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Originally Posted by Omotesando

Why do people think a heavier car is safer than a lighter car in an accident?

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Because it is a fact- size and weight is a huge advantage in a 2 car crash. The occupants of the heavier car are typicaly going to be in a better position in 2 car crashes.

You are right about a single vehicle crash hitting a fixed object - the weight of the vehicle is less or no advantage.

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Originally Posted by yfin

Because it is a fact- size and weight is a huge advantage in a 2 car crash. The occupants of the heavier car are typicaly going to be in a better position in 2 car crashes.

You are right about a single vehicle crash hitting a fixed object - the weight of the vehicle is less or no advantage.

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A Fact? That's about the most far-stretched claim I've heard. Are you an engineer who can prove this? Are you 100% certain you are correct?

Unless you're talking about a Hummer or a truck, I dont understand how a better structurally engineered car at 1250kg can't out-crash a 1450kg or 1500Kg car. Have you considered the fact that an A-Class or a Yaris is so safe not only due to the passive safety features and/or has sound structural engineering, but perhaps because its specific shape (like an egg) gives it better crashability?

As I already said 'may be' in a 2 car crash the heavier one should have an advantage over the lighter one but for me, I would not be as conclusive as to claim it as 'a fact' just because you think it is simple physics to you. To me, its more like a case by case scenario.

Perhaps A is safer than B during a crash. And B is safer than C in a 2 car crash. Due to the different impact points, heights, etc, it is impossible to conclude thatn C can't actually out-crash an A.

Alright Omo - let me crash my 1800kg VE into a Yaris and see who wins. 5 star rating versus 4 star. I will bulldoze the occupants into oblivion.

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Originally Posted by yfin

Alright Omo - let me crash my 1800kg VE into a Yaris and see who wins. 5 star rating versus 4 star. I will bulldoze the occupants into oblivion.

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Have u ever considered that you're mentality is just the same as those driving AWDs who think they can bully everyone because they are heavier and bigger? How about if I drove a Cayenne S and drove into the side of your VE Commodore?

If everyone has similar sized cars with only 4 cylinders and doesn't carry more metal than is necessary, perhaps it would be more fair to one another survival rate wise lol! :angel:

Still you were exaggerating what I said into the wrong context especially with the singular quotes from what I wrote altogether. Whilst I agree that your VE will most probably fare out better during a collision with a Yaris, it still doesn't prove that a heavier car must necessarily be safer than a lighter car in all cases.

Well the Yaris has an NCAP rating of 5 stars but the VE Commodore has NCAP rating of 4 stars. Have you considered why the VE Commodore hasn't attained 5 stars? One could argue other cars with 5 stars specifically engineered it to get the rating but at the end of the day, even if the NCAP isn't a perfect rating system, if Holden knew about it why didn't they engineer it to be 5 stars?

What is Holden's excuse that the VY commodore had better frontal impact rating than the newer VE Commodore? It should be safer no?

Which gets back to what I said before.

The engineering of the car's design is utterly important and as my original point tried to cover, a heavier car isn't necessarily going to fare better. Obviously depends on the relative differences.

And if the NCAP was too much based/biased on a car hitting a stationary object at a fixed speed than obviously it shows the Yaris is safer than the VE Commodore under that particular set of variables.

I mean one might as well argue that we should all drive trucks or tanks if you are concerned about crashing into other cars.

If a Yaris hits onto your side and you survive, you should probably thank god that the Yaris wasnt any heavier, not because your VE Commodore had very good side on protection because another VE hitting your side wouldn't be a very happy scenario.

PS. I often think UFOs are shaped round so they have 360 degrees of crumble zone when they crash lol.

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Originally Posted by EuroDude

Hmm it seems Holden themselves dont even have trust in the Epica, if you dont like it, they offer a refund. But you need to buy another car of similar value before you can return it: http://www.caradvice.com.au/2531/hol...ck-if-you-can/

And some more quality concerns regarding the Epica:
http://autofix.com.au/blog/archives/220

Do yourself a favor, stick with a reliable Japanese car. The Korean cars have improved, but they cannot compete with the Japanese offerings.

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That makes no sense. If they didn't trust it then they wouldn't offer a refund. Once its bought they couldn't care less if you don't like it. But they trust you like it so the perceived risk is low. Risk that the consumer will want a refund.

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Originally Posted by markCivicVti

That makes no sense. If they didn't trust it then they wouldn't offer a refund. Once its bought they couldn't care less if you don't like it. But they trust you like it so the perceived risk is low. Risk that the consumer will want a refund.

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Yes but you got to consider that if they didn't offer this refund offer, people probably wouldn't buy it in the first place either.

The better explanation might be that they trust the Epica enough that ppl won't return it once its sold, but they don't trust it enough that without extra incentives or protection for the buyers, it wouldn't really sell!

Its a bit bluffing IMO. There's nothing much to lose for them either. They still get the car back and it still has resale value. They probably make 50% if the buyer keep it but lose 20% market value if they get it back. Yet, if they had 50% margin and they lost 20% market value, it means it didn't costed them that much at imported cost - so theoretically they could still sell it off 2nd hand for a profit or just breakeven.

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Well the Yaris has an NCAP rating of 5 stars but the VE Commodore has NCAP rating of 4 stars. Have you considered why the VE Commodore hasn't attained 5 stars? One could argue other cars with 5 stars specifically engineered it to get the rating but at the end of the day, even if the NCAP isn't a perfect rating system, if Holden knew about it why didn't they engineer it to be 5 stars?

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Some cars are engineered to crash well in NCAP, not to crash as well as possible under all possible circumstances. Dont forget, VE is engineered for Australia...unlike the Yaris which is sold in a large number of markets.

Stationary collisions and collisions with moving objects are two different things. Car A could crash better in a collision with car B, but car B may crash better than car A in a stationary collision.

I think what yfin is saying on principle a heavier car will have an advantage over lighter one. If you were crashing into a truck would you rather be in a Yaris or another truck? On the other hand, it the Yaris and truck were crashing into a solid concrete wall i think I would rather be in the 5 star Yaris.

its pretty typical. Aussie journo's will (in my experience of reading) always rate the ford or holden (holden in most cases) higher than the japanese ones.

Epica is only an Australian car because it wears a holden badge on the front of it. In all reality it is a Daewoo - not Australian.

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Originally Posted by Jaso

I think what yfin is saying on principle a heavier car will have an advantage over lighter one. If you were crashing into a truck would you rather be in a Yaris or another truck? On the other hand, it the Yaris and truck were crashing into a solid concrete wall i think I would rather be in the 5 star Yaris.

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A truck is different. A truck has a rigid chassis, unlike a monocoque shell design of passenger cars.

Anyway, weight has one advantage and it is not about the heavier car crumpling less when it hits a lighter car. The advantage is that a heavier car changes velocity less than a lighter car in a collision (conservation of momentum, Newton's 2nd law). And in a serious crash, you can have all the airbags and instant spray-me safety-foam that encases you in a shell so you don't hit anything, but the deceleration will cause internal injury to your organs and death. From what I remember, if you crash at 100km/h into a solid concrete wall and your car's passenger cell survives, you still die from internal injury (this was from Top Gear's test of a Smart car into a concrete wall).

For 2 cars, one 1000kg and the other 2000kg, the heavier car will probably at most undergo deceleration that is 1/2 of that of the lighter car in a head on collision. That 50% is a big amount and can be the difference between life and death. So even if your car has the best passenger cell, deceleration can still kill you. On the other hand, your car can be big and heavy, but if a small side-view mirror from the lighter car penetrates the cabin and smashes into your head, you still die. :)