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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIDSEURO
Pull your head in Sludge.
Im making a comment ok, if you wanna be a precious pussy
over it so be it then.
Cant a bloke have say or what.[/QUOTE]
You can say what you like its a free country!
I just don't see the need to attack people in the process.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Originally Posted by Sludge
Sludge
Bit of attack never hurt anyone ok.
Anyhow enough of the frivolities.
Here is an email i rec'd this arvo from Honda Australia :
For all the pingers like myself its at least some news.
The email is in response to me asking them what's going on with this
pinging Sh**.
Dear Mr XXXXXXXXX
We apologise for the delay in responding. Honda Motor Co,. Ltd has developed a countermeasure upgrade software for the engine management system and the factory R & D engineers are in the process of conducting field testing before it will be released in Australia. We expect this revised software will be available within a number of weeks although we are unable to provide you with a specific time frame. Therefore at this point in time we are not in a position to attend to your vehicle as anticipated and sincerely apologise for this delay. We will be back in contact with you as soon as we receive further advice from the factory regarding this matter. While anticipating your disappointment we thank you for your patience.
Regards
HONDA AUSTRALIA PTY LTD
Ken Sheppard
Client Relations Specialist
Customer Services
I don't understand whats going on. I thought thewizzrd said he already had the upgrade?Quote:
Originally Posted by VIDSEURO
unfortunately thewizzard is fulla shyte....
so to thewizzard pull your head in and get real man.
These posts are for educated people who want to share
useful information not Bull Shit
You do call it as you see it, don't you!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by VIDSEURO
Thanks Sludge
I smelled thewizzard afar off.
Mate seriously if Honda does not come up with the goods
this has the potential to really turn things upside down for them.
Their Euro has a mettalic noise and its the Car of The Year.
My euro has 4,500 and makes the noise under load and when cold.
Radio up and i dont hear it as bad.
I really enjoy this car but im disspointed that something like this has happened.
I guess we all get a reality check from time to time so
lets see what happens from here on.
I envisage little men in lab coats in Japan are working their little
arses off and flogging a Euro to replicate the problem.
Good luck to them.
Yes, I highly doubted thewizzard because Honda wouldn't release firmware upgrade unless it worked.
My ping is pretty horrid and I'm going to try and capture the sound tonight because the noise is so pronouced.
I'll put a link up on youtube once available, pending if I can get the noise recorded.
I'll keep you guys posted.
Went out to the shops to pick up some sweet chilli wheat grains as an excuse to capture the pinging sound but instead found a CL7 Euro in a car accident near the Gungahlin shops. :(
Hope everyone involved was ok.
Anyway, back on topic. The trip was a total failure, not only was I unable to capture the pining sound on tape but Coles was sold out of sweet chilli wheat grains!
HAHAHA!!! What a crack up Joystick! Did you mean to say "grain waves"?
Out of curiosity, how were you planning to record the sound? Put your mobile in audio record mode and put it on the dash while you drove?
Yes, I did mean grain waves! lol I've only just discovered them and I'm now hooked.
I had my video recorded attached to the steering wheel so you'ld be able to see the rev range while the pinging noise occured but wasn't able to capture the sound, too much back ground noise.
That, or mic can not pick up the freqency of the ping....?
Also, on a positive note, was able to pick up some Grain Waves on the way home from work!
To all the doubters,
I did have the upgrade done at my dealership last Friday. They are doing some field tests with it and I put my hand up. They had engineers in from Japan while I was there, testing out the upgrade on my car. I have been driving it for a week now and as I said before the pinging has been reduced but it is still noticeable but not as much. I did mention to them on Tuesday (after driving the car fro a few days) that I felt the car had lost a bit of it's grunt. They were surprised by that comment and mentioned that on another car they had positive results and it had improved performance.
They will get back to me next week with more news.
^^ Umble pie anyone?
Sounds like they are detuning the car...
Yep, my guy told me he thought they would retard the ignition = less power and fuel economy :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Euro08Jaz
Don't be so quick to judge people. That letter you got seems to be a standard canned response to this pinging issue that Honda Australia gives out to anyone asking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by VIDSEURO
I still wonder if they can do this without the risk of people claiming refunds...If you purchased a Ferrari and it got detuned would you demand you money back if the performance was lost?Quote:
Originally Posted by Euro08Jaz
That would depend on what you want. Do you want a car that doesn't ping or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick
umm... pinging (or in honda's term post-combustion ignition), is considered a defect... I wont buy something NEW from a reputable brand and expect defects in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by unity
it would be a different story, if I had bought some bargain dodgy MiC xx-con-xx brands.
It shouldn't be an either/or proposition. What's wrong with expecting a new car to perform to its specifications without pinging?Quote:
Originally Posted by unity
I agree with you, but current owner's unfortunately don't have that luxury. They will either have to put up with the pinging or get the software update which may change the characteristics of the car. Neither option is acceptable. There needs to be better laws to protect consumers in this situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by bk212
Yeah you're probably right. It may be that there is some remedy under the Trade Practices Act, but it's just too hard for an individual consumer to go down that path. Maybe we should get one of the current affairs programs onto the case!Quote:
Originally Posted by unity
Anyway I think I would rather have less performance than put up with this noise - it's terrible.
The car has already gained 200 odd kilos over the previous model, I'd hate to have even less power and torque that what the car currently has. :(
Honda Australia should be offering some sort of goodwill measure as compensation. I think people concerned should push for a free extended 2 year warranty to cover for possible problems down the track.
that or money back guaranteeQuote:
Originally Posted by unity
Hi Guys, I just bought a Euro L(03/09) but before i took the car i talked to the manager of honda north shore about the pinging noise and he said the software will be available by mid march(he showing the letter from nz head office), so anyone that have this problem could go back to your dealer and get this problem done but again this pinging noise not happened to anyone.hope this could help
Guys,Quote:
Originally Posted by thewizzrd
Be carefull about this fix ! It might decrease you engine power output !
My Euro has aprox 9000 km and, from the beginning, I have experienced low power during acceleration, especially uphill; and very rarely, pinging at low speeds, when engine is cold.
Now, before you say the two have nothing in common, let's look at the first simptom: low power during acceleration.
In the US, Honda have officially acknowledged the problem.
(http://www.allworldauto.com/tsbs/NHT...in_280587.html)
The explanation says:
"VEHICLES MAY EXPERIENCE AN INTERMITTENT LACK OF POWER DUE TO INTERFERENCE OR NOISE ON THE KNOCK SENSOR SIGNAL CIRCUIT"
From service bulletin SB 07-057:
"Interference or noise on the knock sensor circuit can cause the PCM to retartd the ignition, causing a decrease in engine power, usually during acceleration"
The fix for this was a software upgrade for the PGM-FI.
Now, my main problem is low power, so I guess this problem applies to my car.
But Honda Oz only have complains about knocking/pinging (the good people on this thread).
So in other words, if the knock sensor suffers from noise or interference,
that the software can't eliminate, it will erroneously cause low power, even if the engine is not pinging.
But if pinging is the main complaint ( and it is definately a problem for a lot of people) Honda might be tempted to 'mask' it by making the knock sensor more sensitive, or giving it more 'weight' in the software.
So the big question is : are they making the pinging disappear, or are they
giving more 'weight' to the knock sensor's input, resulting in deteriorating engine performance, from noise and interference on the circuit ?!
Honda should be made accountable for the results of their fix.
Car of the year.... ping !
http://www.wheelsmag.com.au/wheels/s...2575770015C28C
If Honda can't correct the pinging issue without any loss of power I'll be asking for my money back.
Just gotta sit tight and see what happens. :/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
Seems everyone ever so touchy about this matter.
So im sorry to have offended anyone or judged you.
Can the wizzard confirm what dealership he purchased his car from?
I purchased mine from Capital Honda in Phillip.
If the wizzard is legit then good on him, sorry wizzard.
All the best chaps...:o
hi ,guys ,I'm new here, bought the car 2 months ago ,same probs as everyone.
have been contacting the dealer and the Honda Australia regarding the knocking noise
and low power at pinging time without any happy answer from the Honda Australia, the
manager from Honda said it's normal sound!!!then said they've working on it .I asked if
it's normal why you working on the solution???because you guys complaint it!!!
Off course I'm not happy with .SO I've called VCA and guide one of officers to this thread
and they will be monitoring this issue fro now.because it's not single issue any more.
I've been told to lodge a formal complaint to Honda which I suggest all of us to do it
asap!!!
we are not fools!!!
[QUOTE=Joystick;2185187]If Honda can't correct the pinging issue without any loss of power I'll be asking for my money back.
how possible is this?!
Probably got bugger all chance but I doubt Honda would reduce power to eleminate the ping. Just seems too risky....
just saw a new nados ad while typing this. All I can say is enjoy! :D
I am not effected by this problem, but if I was I would be very tempted to put the car on a Dyno before & after whatever the fix might be. 3 runs each time on the same Dyno. You would then havea written graph to backup any claims of loss of power instead of just a seat of the pants feeling which in reality means nothing.
Car was purchased from Astoria Honda back in Nov 08Quote:
Originally Posted by VIDSEURO
FYI
The pinging sound has started in my car after nearly two months of perect running. It is a pinging sound but I can't confirm if it's actually from the engine. It's only audible between 2000 and 3000 RPM. It has only started in the last week. I have only used Vortex 98 since day one. I tried Nulon octane boost last Thursday and if anything the pinging is now slightly worse. The octane boost certainly doesn't help at all.
I have my car booked in for a dyno run tomorrow. My car is booked in for 1000km service next Monday at one of the Honda dealers so I will find out if the fix is applied to my car. If so I will have another dyno run to see if there is any performance change.
Let me know if there is any interest in the results otherwise I won't bother posting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Originally Posted by HVF00T
Hey buddy
Can i encourage you to lodge a formal complaint using your VIN through
the Honda Web site.
Then give a letter of complaint to the dealer manager.
Im unsure if dyno will prove anything due to the fact that there is awesome noise coming from the rollers of the dyno. The ping noise is faint but audible
for the person who drives the car regularly.
Bloody shame coz the euro gets better with every 1,000 km's.
Anyhow best of luck to everyone who has a euro with this issue.
Hopefull the software update will address the problem.
If not Honda are in deep sh**....
still... can you post the dyno result? want to know what the power figure ATW for the CU2
Yep, will do.. The dyno is only for my own curiosity at actual Euro power figures, not for diagnosis. It will also become a baseline to compare against when the Honda fix is applied (or any mods I want to make later on :D )Quote:
Originally Posted by VIDSEURO
x2! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by denot
Yep, keen to know the dyno results as well.
Have exactly the same problem, pining noise from 2-3k but I can hear it from almost any rev range now that my ears are attuned to it. :(
Not sure if any manual vehicle owners are having this problem, but I have noticed it in our manual Accord Euro, the car has about 1500km's on it.
Any other manual owners notice it?
Dyno result for CU2 Auto running on Vortex98 and it was done today not 14/03.
http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/data/512/CU2Dyno.jpg
waks! 103.8!!!! :( Hmmm cant you hit 7000 rpm as what Honda states (148Kw@7000rpm)?Quote:
Originally Posted by HVF00T
note: I know the atw will be less than the power figures from honda, but 45Kw less is unexpected... the FD2 is only 25Kw less than the Honda figures
the 145kw is quoted from the engine.
A dyno measures the output from the wheels, so whenever a manufacture quotes a power from the engine, so its 100kw atw ( i think) something like that
like i sed, i just not expecting the diff is more than 30%... the civic is only 20%-ish differentQuote:
Originally Posted by shakkas
the CL9 is around that with around 35kw loss through the transmission...
so not surprised that the cu2 would be round the same too.
How much of difference does an auto trans make to power ATW? Would expect more loss versus a manual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ok2
that figure can vary so much between different auto transmissions, but if you used a ball park figure of 30 to 35% loss you would be fairly close to the mark
Thanks for the results HVFOOT.
What's the cost for a dyno run these days? Thinking about putting my CU2 on the rollers.
I would suggest around 2 hours labour for set up & 3 runs to get an average, so a ball park figure of $150 to $180 would be my guess.
Don't forget that no 2 Dyno's will read the same & ambient temperature will have a small effect.
$99 for three runs. I didn't shop around due to time constraints. You could probably get someone to do it for less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick
If you're in Sydney Adrian from Toda will do 3 runs and printout for $60.00 i think.Just confirm cost with him.
Or go for dyno days. Dyno days usually cost about $50 for 3 runs, plus you get to compare with other cars on the day.
with 100kw result on stock cars? i think it will be embarrasing :oQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
Wait til you see fully sick Civics pulling 80-90kW.Quote:
Originally Posted by denot
I thought the jargon was ful-e-sik? Hmm. Showing my age!
I just had the 1000km service done. The ping upgrade is not yet officially released by Honda. The service guy also confirmed that octane levels will not make a difference for this issue. Also, Honda factory pays for the 1000km service so nobody should be getting charged for it. I think it was mentioned in other threads that people were being charged for the 1000km service.
Quote from invoice:
"Check for engine pinging:
Roadtested vehicle, unable to reproduce pinging at time of test. Honda Japan is developing a software upgrade to cure pinging concerns. Client will be notified when available."
It sounds like dealer service depts are being instructed to look for affected cars.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQR
Maybe they are now due to the fact that numerous Euro owners
manual or auto are affected by the mettalic pinging noise.
When i made the appointment with the manager at Capital Honda
in Canberra he had no idea of this problem.
I think its important for affected owners to :
1. Go to the Honda web site use their VIN and submit an email of complaint.
2. Give a letter of complaint to their dealer, best to go to the top.
I must say once again it truly detracts from the car when you are accelarating
and you hear the rattle... It very dissapointing.
Lets face it the Euro has a very high compression engine, and the car is already on the verge of pinging..
Im sure we are all looking forward to the correction that Honda will issue
to affected owners.
:o
Feel free to rev the Vtec ....... maybe if someone can blow a motor
Honda may give a replacement
Why do you say that? It is high compression but it runs on premium. The CL9 never had a pinging issue and the air fuel ratio is typically very rich. Yes they increased the compression ratio on the CU2 slightly - but it is still a lower compresion than say a s2000 (and does that ping?).Quote:
Originally Posted by VIDSEURO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Err Coz i felt like it...its a free country
So what if the CL9 never had pinging,
who cares about the air fuel ratio, not me....
And what has the s2000 has to do with it.. <crap all> its a different car.
Dude im not sure of what you are saying but keep up the good work.
I think if we can keep relevant that will help our cause.
Have a beer on me....;)
My money still says it is not a pinging problem as ;-
1. not all vehicles are effected
2. adding octane booster has no effect
3. using 95 or 98 RON fuel makes no difference.
4. all engines are the same, with same sensors & settings
Remember that the CU2 has a completely different cyl head design to the CL9, so they can't be compared.
Denot, how can you justify that comment? Please name another mid size 4 cyl car in Australia that has more power than a Euro. Lets run through the list:-Quote:
Originally Posted by denot
Mazda 6
Camry
Mondeo
sonata
Epica
BMW 3 series 4 cyl
those 6 off the top of my head, so if the Euro is embarrasing what would you say about those cars?
no buddah... I just, somehow, have this thought that dyno day is for mod cars and all... so what I said is not that I embarrased on the CU2 compared to the other cars you've mention above, but to other cars that modded, turboed, etc that attend the dyno day. Like I sed, I just have this concept of "dyno day" is where moded car test their power...Quote:
Originally Posted by buddah51au
Appologies for the wrong perception... :(
As you didn't get it - I will explain it for you slowly. You made a wild comment "the car is already on the verge of pinging" because of high compression. There are lots of cars that are high compression. The CL9 is a related engine - that didn't ping. The s2000 has higher compression that your car - and that doesn't ping.Quote:
Originally Posted by VIDSEURO
So whilst I sympathise with your issue - don't spread fear by saying that the car is on the verge of pinging based on its compression ratio. The ratio is nothing unusual and nothing new and is similar to many modern vehicles.
DudeQuote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Be affraid very affraid ..... Lol
Actually buddy that comment about the Euro being on the verge
of pinging is from Ken Sheppard from Honda Australia.
If thats fear than shyte i better hide....
No worries mate .... Did you have that beer, bet you drink light...
Anyhow...
Yes I am afraid... This Ken Sheppard is the same customer service consultant who sent you (or someone else here) an email saying the standard Honda message - ie it not pre-ignition (ie pinging) but post-combustion noise? Honda staff need to make up their mind - is this pre-ignition or post combustion noise?
Spoke to the guys at Honda yesterday and was shown a letter regarding the pinging and where they're at, lets just say it contained nothing we don't already know and I doubt we'll see a fix this month.
Also, I was told that if you use any other oil apart from mineral in the CU2, you will void your warranty. The guy was pro sythetic but said he's been told that if you use non-mineral oil Honda won't honor the warranty. :(
Gotta get my hood shake fix next service, does anyone else notice a lot of bounce from their bonnet?
Exalted and otherwise enlighted one, "pinging" or "engine-knocking" is a post combustion noise.Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Please read the article for which I had previously posted a useful link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking
From the Wiki article:
Knocking (also called knock, detonation or spark knock, pinking in UK English or pinging in US English) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines occurs when combustion of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder starts off correctly in response to ignition by the spark plug, but one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front. The fuel-air charge is meant to be ignited by the spark plug only, and at a precise time in the piston's stroke cycle. The peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The shock wave creates the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and cylinder pressure increases dramatically. Effects of engine knocking range from inconsequential to completely destructive. It should not be confused with pre-ignition (or preignition), as they are two separate events......
Clearly Honda Australia are claiming that this post combustion noise is in the inconsequential range instead of near-Armageddon. So why won't they warrant engines past the first owner?
I found the reference - Honda here is saying post combustion is not pinging. Yet other Honda people are saying it is? Honda needs to sort out its messaging as it increasingly sounds like bulltish and damage control.Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQR
***
Dear xxxx, we appreciate that you are concerned about the presence of an engine operational sound as it detracts from your overall enjoyment of the vehicle and we wish to again reassure you that this condition will have no impact on performance or engine reliability. We have been working closely with the technical division of Honda Corporation in Japan and following extensive investigations we can confirm that the condition you are experiencing is not that of “pinging” which is known within the industry as “pre-ignition”. The condition that you are experiencing is a combustion sound taking place after the programmed ignition, namely a “post combustion noise”. As this condition takes place after the programmed ignition and with the piston on its downward stroke, there is no detrimental force or impact within the engine in your vehicle. Therefore your engine has not sustained any damage and we are happy to offer you a guarantee on the engine while you are the owner of this vehicle as a way of reassuring you of our confidence that no wear or damage is occurring to the engine or associated components.
We trust this advice from the manufacturer clarifies the matter.
Regards
Joe Gelsi
Customer Relations Manager
Honda Australia Pty Ltd
Joystick - what does the specs in the manual say re type of oil? If you go with that and it says nothing about the use of synthetic oil - I can't see how Honda could validly void warranty by the use of synthetic oil. Spreading a messaging by word of mouth is not the best way to advise owners. I also noticed that in Asia Honda sell its own full syn oil called Ultra Gold. One can only imagine that if it was sold here that Honda Australia would recommend it for all its vehicles in Australia due to its premium price tag. Yes I am a cynic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick
http://nm-parts.kz/images/japanoil/h...ld-sm-5w40.jpg
That's crap re:using synthetic oil voiding your warranty.As yfin said where in the manual does it state that?My bonnet vibrated too.It's an easy fix.Just tell them when you book it in for service and they'll fix it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick
update for ping issuse;
i have just done my first service today. in the front, i told one consultant that when it has 'zzzz' noise (not big, not annoying) when i accelerate, even smoothly accerate. after that, the consultant told me that my car was tested, and identified that my car has 'pinging' problem, and they will send my details to australia honda, once the finalised software is released, they will contact me asap.
what a fk:(:eek:, i never hear any ping noise from my as some guys mentioned previousely, but the 'professional' people tell me exactly, that i have. also, i ask whether the updated software will reduce the power. the man said, definitely not. ok, i try to trust him, as they are 'professional'.
I bought a brand new Accord Euro Luxury Navigation in late january this year. I have clocked about 2,300Km with no problems. However, about 10 days ago for the first time I noticed a strange popping noise coming from the back of the car. The noise did not re-occur until last night when I heard the same noise again.
I am sure that the noise came from the muffler tube on the left. It sounded like a "pop" inside a metallic tube.
Does this sound to any of you, like the pinging noise that everybody is talking about? (Please say no)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick
Take a look at pages 393 and 394 in the Owners Manual. As long as it is API Service SL grade or higher and you use the correct viscosity based on the chart on page 393, you should have no issue with Honda in using synthetic or mineral oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Yeah, I saw that earlier and it is the reason why I have posted the links to the Wiki page a number of times. Honda Australia is run by clerks and they don't know that pinging is a post combustion noise and that pinging is not pre-ignition. They've got everything arse-about (can we Type aRse?)Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
So I guess the crap about oil is to encourage people to stick with the Honda oil instead of bringing in your own stuff. Thanks for the help guys.
Maybe, but keep in mind that there are Honda dealers out there that don't even use FEO themselves. The dealer that I brought my car from uses Magnatec and they even have the magnatec logo printed on all their paper work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick
I know of 3 Honda service depts.in Sydney that use Magnatec.Quote:
Originally Posted by unity
So what's the message they are trying to send out there? Is FEO an inferior product or does it just come down to profits at the end of the day. I wonder how many other non geniune Honda fluids are being used in our cars?Quote:
Originally Posted by tony1234