Lowering Euro and other suspension mods

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Originally Posted by yfin

...I am not saying my suspension is the same as your wiz bang amazing Mugen SS....

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If you weren't so overly touchy about your car and its mods you might be able to see the substance of my post.

It's unfortunate that you've chosen to take an adversarial approach to this discussion, but I am happy to oblige.

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I am saying my configuration is as close as you will find on this forum. As for your Mugen expert - if he was so good and experienced in all things Euro - he would tell you the $200 thicker sway bar is a great mod for the money.

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Firstly, where did I suggest he was a MUGEN expert? Secondly, while I don't know exactly how much of an expert he is, I know enough to be certain that he has more expertise in tuning (Honda) suspensions than anybody that's posted on this thread. Whether you feel comfortable with accepting that fact is of no particular concern to me.

As far as the $200 Whiteline swaybar, he was good and experienced enough to tell me that it's much heavier than Japanese makes, like Swift for instance, and that Whiteline's development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards are well below Honda's standards and below the key JDM tuners' budgets and standards. He was also experienced enough to tell me that no reputable Honda tuner in Japan disrupts the fine balance of the Euro by increasing the diameter of the rear swaybar by 4mm (or more) while retaining the standard front bar, and that such half-way measures as designed to cater to people who want to get something for nothing and end up gaining one thing while sacrificing another.

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Better bang for buck than your suspension kit.

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How could you even know if it's better bang for buck than your own springs-and-shocks kit, considering that you don't seem to have tried your kit with the standard swaybar and no strut brace?

Btw, it might be of interest to some that the Australian distributor for KW suspensions (reputable German maker that's only starting to enter the Australian market) also suggested to me that bigger swaybars and strut braces only produce a significant improvement for the street if the springs and shocks aren't doing the handling job very well. He added that building an ultra-stiff car might be great for smooth race tracks, but can be detrimental to handling on imperfect roads. He also recommended against changing the rear swaybar without changing the front swaybar to match, unless you are trying to cure an imbalanced car. His view was that the Euro is definitely not an imbalanced car and that increasing the diameter of the rear bar by 4mm (which is what I believe Whiteline does) while retaining the standard front bar will make it imbalanced. It seems that Eibach is another German suspension company that agrees, since they make a a front-and-rear swaybar kit for the TSX/Euro, but will not sell the rear without the front or vice versa.

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Lower your Euro as much as you like - dump it on its ass - you are still going to get plenty of body roll around corners.

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Was that directed at me? I guess you missed the part where I suggested that lowering doesn't do much for body roll, huh?

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And who gives what Mugen does in its development?

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Mugen is to Honda something like what AMG and Brabus are to Mercedes. Do you really think that any other aftermarket company, especially Whiteline, would have spent as much time, effort and expertise as Mugen in developing the Euro suspension for the street?

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You are suggesting that because mugen doesn't have a particular modification - other manufacturer's must be wasting their time?

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Of course they are not wasting their time. For one, they are making money from the stuff they sell, especially from people who want to play racers on non-racing roads and at non-racing speeds.

What I am quite certain of though is that Mugen has much more of a reputation (for improving Hondas for the street) to uphold than Whiteline and other after-market brands have. It also has greater pressure not to ruin Honda's enormous engineering input. And that should make any thoughtful person question why they've chosen not to make swaybars and strut braces for the Euro.

ferrarista, aleksandrov - i can defintiely see your logic and i agree with you on some points, HOWEVER, yfin (and myself for that matter) are speaking from first hand experience. To be honest it doesn't bother me how much "great knowledge of motor racing" you have or how many supposed "experts" you have confirmed your theories with i'm sticking to my opinion that the addition of a sway bar makes a noticable improvement, try it for yourself you'll see... is it really that hard to believe? c'mon.

whiteline sway bar is 18mm which is 3mm thicker than stock i think.

i dont think anyone on this forum can profess to know more about the "fine balance" and inner workings of the euro than any other, this discussion has become very opinion based

one of our members, baboo also use to track his euro regurlarly and i've spoken to him about the various bracing bars he once had on his car and according to him it helped his lap times and reduced body roll around corners... you cant argue with that

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

ferrarista, aleksandrov - i can defintiely see your logic and i agree with you on some points, HOWEVER, yfin (and myself for that matter) are speaking from first hand experience. To be honest it doesn't bother me how much "great knowledge of motor racing" you have or how many supposed "experts" you have confirmed your theories with i'm sticking to my opinion that the addition of a sway bar makes a noticable improvement, try it for yourself you'll see... is it really that hard to believe? c'mon. and since when did mugen become god :confused:?

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The reason I raised the points was because I wanted to get other people's views on them. I appreciate your view that the upgraded rear swaybar does improve the handling even if you already have a good upgraded coilover set. But anybody who has not tried the coilover kit in question with the standard rear swaybar is logically not in a position to make that point and be taken seriously.

As far as Mugen being 'God', there really is no call for dramatising things. No sensible and informed person would deny that Mugen is a more significant authority when it comes to tuning Hondas than Whiteline is, and that it has a reputation for excellence that it can't afford to tarnish by selling something that won't pass rigorous testing by those in the know or that won't match or exceed Honda's engineering excellence.

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

one of our members, baboo also use to track his euro regurlarly and i've spoken to him about the various bracing bars he once had on his car and according to him it helped his lap times and reduced body roll around corners... you cant argue with that

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Why do you even imply that I would want to argue with that? I've already said, or at least inferred, more than once that bracing bars and sway bars are beneficial for track work and at very high speed cornering on smooth roads (which is what most tracks are) generally. Did you miss that?

Did you also miss my point that what is beneficial on the track (or smooth roads generally) can often be detrimental on regular (uneven and/or rough) roads? It's really not a novel idea. If you read Wheels and Motor reviews that are based on comparative road and track testing you will find that it's quite an elementary concept.

the reason i decided to "dramatise things" as you put it is because of a previous comment like this - "But anybody who has not tried the coilover kit in question with the standard rear swaybar is logically not in a position to make that point and be taken seriously."

I believe i can be taken seriously when i say that a thicker sway bar will also help the mugen coilovers. Baboo had some very track orientated zeal coilovers which are now on Matell's car and they have very firm spring rates, firmer than the mugen coilovers you've mentioned. All i'm suggesting is, that if a sway bar can improve a car with track orientated (and very expensive/highly respected brand) of coilover then there is absoloutely no reason as to why it wouldnt help with the mugen susspension aswell (especially given its softer spring rates).

maybe you prefer how the car handles without a swaybar, and maybe the tuners you speak of do to and i respect that. but when it comes to body roll there is no denying that at the very limit (as it would be driven around a track) a sway bar is going to keep your car flatter.

i just read your posts in a bit more detail (about road surfaces etc).... maybe a swaybar and bracing mods arent suitable for the rougher roads. i assumed you were implying they weren't beneficial at all.

in saying that i still think a sway bar like the whiteline bar which is only a few mm thicker than stock could be suitable for the majority of road conditions. its probably not the best idea to be taking corners on roads that are very rough at higher speeds anyway.

Well the fact of the matter remains this, the Type S in the UK lapped quicker than a Volvo S60R which nearly had double the HP, they put this down to the chassis and standard suspension equiptment of the car.

My point is this, Honda have pumped alot of money into the the car. Stock wise, its a great handling car and spending thousands of $$ on a suspension upgrade is pointless especially because of what the car is meant to be used for - end of the day its still a family saloon, some people here should have bought an ITR instead.

Look, i respect your opinion if you want to go spend money on all different parts its your cash so do so, but dont look down apon people who dont want to do it and just add lowering springs to an already great handling car.

I know its not a popular opinion but deal with it, i'll respect yours and you'll respect mine and dont underestimate the car you have, its friggen awesome as it is :)

i think that summed up this debate pretty nicely. i agree with everything you said there.

i'm not tryin to put people down that believe suspension mods aren't worth the money its sorta the other way around. a lot of members have spent significant amount of money on suspension mods and when your told by other people with no or less extensive mods that they were practically a waste of money then obvioulsy your going to get some slightly heated answers.

i'm really happy with everything i've done to the car and don't regret it at all, just as im sure you dont regret the choices you've made with your car :)

just as a point of interest i remember reading on the tsx forum that in the states the modded racing tsx's are able to outhandle the rsx-s even with a significant weight penalty.

have you seen that article on the euro vs. audi. s4 volvo s60r it compared quite favourably to them handling wise too (completely stock) it was a good read.

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

i think that summed up this debate pretty nicely. i agree with everything you said there.

i'm not tryin to put people down that believe suspension mods aren't worth the money its sorta the other way around. a lot of members have spent significant amount of money on suspension mods and when your told by other people with no or less extensive mods that they were practically a waste of money then obvioulsy your going to get some slightly heated answers.

i'm really happy with everything i've done to the car and don't regret it at all, just as im sure you dont regret the choices you've made with your car :)

just as a point of interest i remember reading on the tsx forum that in the states the modded racing tsx's are able to outhandle the rsx-s even with a significant weight penalty.

have you seen that article on the euro vs. audi. s4 volvo s60r it compared quite favourably to them handling wise too (completely stock) it was a good read.

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Yeah, when i read that article my respect for the Euro grew 10 fold due to their Type S is our Euro. To be able to lap quicker than the S60R and only a few seconds more than the S4 was like..wow, this thing is friggen awesome.

Sorry, i just got worked up when one member said i knew nothing about cars because i suggested that the Chassis makes a difference with handling...i had to speak out :D

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

...in saying that i still think a sway bar like the whiteline bar which is only a few mm thicker than stock could be suitable for the majority of road conditions. its probably not the best idea to be taking corners on roads that are very rough at higher speeds anyway.

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Roads don't need to be VERY rough for a very stiff suspension to not hold well on them. Mere camber changes in the road surface can unsettle a very stiff car. And whether you are taking the corner TOO fast relative to the surface quality depends on the suspension. On some corners, 40km feels too fast with my Integra because the stiffness causes it to lose traction (although not in a way that you 'lose' it), yet with the standard suspension on the Euro the same corner is a piece of cake at 40km. On the other hand, the Euro has no chance of matching the precision and stability at speed of the old Integra on long winding roads with decent surfaces. I'm hoping the Mugen SS will provide a good balance between the two.

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Originally Posted by Ferrarista

Yeah, when i read that article my respect for the Euro grew 10 fold due to their Type S is our Euro. To be able to lap quicker than the S60R and only a few seconds more than the S4 was like..wow, this thing is friggen awesome.

Sorry, i just got worked up when one member said i knew nothing about cars because i suggested that the Chassis makes a difference with handling...i had to speak out [img]images/smilies/icon_cheesygrin.gif[/img]

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yea i was definitely impressed aswell hey. it kind of makes you question the reason for needing such powerful/expensive cars when aroudn the track they aren't significantly quicker. honda has definitely nailed fwd handling.

no need to apologise either i like a good debate - so much more interesting then when everyone agrees :thumbsup:.

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

Roads don't need to be VERY rough for a very stiff suspension to not hold well on them. Mere camber changes in the road surface can unsettle a very stiff car. And whether you are taking the corner TOO fast relative to the surface quality depends on the suspension. On some corners, 40km feels too fast with my Integra because the stiffness causes it to lose traction (although not in a way that you 'lose' it), yet with the standard suspension on the Euro the same corner is a piece of cake at 40km. On the other hand, the Euro has no chance of matching the precision and stability at speed of the old Integra on long winding roads with decent surfaces. I'm hoping the Mugen SS will provide a good balance between the two.

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i agree that the roads dont need to be too rough. when i adjusted the damperning rates on the SS to a harder setting a noticed the car was more easily unsettled by bumps mid corner. but i was able to find a nice mix somehwere in the middle that gave good control and compliance over bumps. i really do agree with the majority that you have been saying and you come across as knowledgeable but we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the finer details.

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Originally Posted by Ferrarista

Well the fact of the matter remains this, the Type S in the UK lapped quicker than a Volvo S60R which nearly had double the HP, they put this down to the chassis and standard suspension equiptment of the car.

My point is this, Honda have pumped alot of money into the the car. Stock wise, its a great handling car and spending thousands of $$ on a suspension upgrade is pointless especially because of what the car is meant to be used for - end of the day its still a family saloon, some people here should have bought an ITR instead...

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I don't know about others, but my decision to upgrade the shocks and springs wasn't to increase lap times. It was because I prefer the driving experience of a tighter suspension that gives me a more direct feel of what the car is doing, more direct steering feel, minimal float and minimal roll. In other words, I like the driving feel of a suspension that gives me a better sense of control and connection to the road. On decent roads, I find cars with such ride characteristics to be much more 'comfortable' than a spungy, 'limo-type' ride, especially from the driver's seat. Perhaps that's because I am generally a bit of a control-freak.

Unfortunately, we have too many roads which are so crappy that it's better to feel disconnected from the road, but even the standard Euro suspension doesn't prevent such roads from annoying the crap out of me. I just hope the Mugen SS doesn't make them A LOT worse.

Perhaps the Euro is not the best car for my taste as far as ride and handling balance is concerned, but it's the best one with 4 doors that I could afford, except for the ($7,000 more expensive) Golf GTI, which had a 9 months waiting list and is not as refined overall as the Euro. $1600 (which is what the Mugen Sports Suspension kit costs) isn't much of a price to pay to get the Euro closer to what I really wanted. Even when you add the extra $1600, the car is still much better value than other similar-sized cars with similar prices.

I know the WRX is similarly priced, but its performance potential is not enough for me to overlook its lack of refinement and style compared to the Euro.