Lowering Euro and other suspension mods

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

How could you even know if it's better bang for buck than your own springs-and-shocks kit, considering that you don't seem to have tried your kit with the standard swaybar and no strut brace?

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Have you ever heard of feel? I know the difference the new suspension has made - and it has not significantly changed body roll from when it was stock set up with the sway.

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

And that should make any thoughtful person question why they've chosen not to make swaybars and strut braces for the Euro.

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A lot of what you say is just based on what other people have told you - not first hand experience. Fact: the Acura TSX has a factory Honda strut brace. Perhaps you should explain that to Mugen and these other distributors you are talking to. Ask them why Honda did that - a waste of time for a road car?

I also believe the TSX sway is 1mm thicker than the Euro. But let me find a source for that - gotta go to work now.

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Originally Posted by yfin

Have you ever heard of feel?

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What about it?

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I know the difference the new suspension has made - and it has not significantly changed body roll from when it was stock suspension with the sway.

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My point was specifically about how the upgraded shocks and springs would perform with the stock bars and strut brace as compared to how they perform with the upgraded rear bar and strut brace. The reason that putting on the new shocks and springs after the rear sway bar and front strut brace made no great difference to body roll COULD easily be that the body roll was already brought down to a level similar to that which the upgraded springs and shocks alone would have brought it down to. That's not a novel idea.

Btw, what gives you the idea that no body roll equals better street handling? The right amount of body roll can actually improve road holding in certain conditions, particularly on uneven roads.

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A lot of what you say is just based on what other people have told you - not first hand experience.

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And a lot of what you say seems to be based on your own untested assumptions. I think it's wise to place more weight on the experience of those who have undertaken more methodical testing.

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Fact: the Acura TSX/Euro has a factory Honda strut brace. Is that because it was a waste of time for Honda to fit it?

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Missing the point again, are we? Does the factory Acura TSX have springs and shocks that match the rates of your upgraded springs and shocks? Why do Honda Europe and Honda Japan not sell strut braces as suspension upgrade option, like they sell upgraded springs and shocks? Why does the Euro R not have a front strut brace? Is it because Honda Japan and Honda Europe weren't insightful enough to think of something as basic and relatively cheap as the strut brace? Or is it because Japanese and Europeans are less discerning about their cars' handling than Americans are?

Btw, this is beside the point, but I wasn't aware that Acura TSX has a factory Honda strut brace. When you say factory Honda, do you mean Honda Japan or Honda/Acura USA?

I have much more faith in Honda Japan's and Mugen's engineering and performance tuning capacity than in Acura's (Honda America's) local operations. After all, just look at the handling abilities of the Honda cars that were designed in America, like the large-bodied Accord and the second Integra Type R (which was a good handler, but not up to the standards of its predecessor), compared to the purely Japanese designs. Of course, that's not to say that the front strut brace does not make a positive difference on the street with the standard springs and shocks.

And before you raise the "did they waste their time" argument again, bear in mind that I never suggested that the swaybar and front strut brace make NO difference, but only that the difference MIGHT be insiginficant for Australian street driving if you already have well sorted sports shocks and springs.

Also, considering that Acura markets the TSX/Euro as a PRESTIGE SPORTS sedan, its decision to add little VISIBLE touches like the front strut brace could have more to do with marketing than with the difference they make to handling.

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Originally Posted by yfin

...I also believe the TSX sway is 1mm thicker than the Euro. ...

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Assuming that is correct, the difference between a 1mm increase and a 4 or even 3mm increase to the diameter of the rear bar ONLY is potentially huge as far as the balance of the car is concerned.

since we're all on the topic on rear sway bars, stock is 15mm, whiteline is 18mm and the comptech is 22mm.
is thicker better?i know the materials used and the weight and the structure(solid or hollow) makes a difference.
im contemplating between the whiteline and the comptech swaybar.
i believe martell has a comptech swaybar.
im wondering whats the difference between the 2 and which is more beneficial?

Yfin, I have already bought the Tein Flex and the EDFC to go with, just waiting for delivery. Now I am just wondering if the ride will be as comfi as the stock suspension. I can understand the handlling will be much better with coilovers, and I also love how comfi it feels driving the Euro now.

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Originally Posted by yfin

Prediction. You will disagree with me right up until the day you install the thicker rear sway bar and strut brace. I guess it depends on how you drive and corner - but you don't know what you are missing. :p When people on this forum rave about mods like the Whiteline rear sway - they are not overstating things - it is fantastic.

Anyway - back to topic - Eurosp what have you decided to do? It has been a month or two since this thread started

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

Why do Honda Europe and Honda Japan not sell strut braces as suspension upgrade option, like they sell upgraded springs and shocks? Why does the Euro R not have a front strut brace? Is it because Honda Japan and Honda Europe weren't insightful enough to think of something as basic and relatively cheap as the strut brace? Or is it because Japanese and Europeans are less discerning about their cars' handling than Americans are?

Btw, this is beside the point, but I wasn't aware that Acura TSX has a factory Honda strut brace. When you say factory Honda, do you mean Honda Japan or Honda/Acura USA?

Also, considering that Acura markets the TSX/Euro as a PRESTIGE SPORTS sedan, its decision to add little VISIBLE touches like the front strut brace could have more to do with marketing than with the difference they make to handling.

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The Acura TSX is made in Japan. And the Euro R has a factory strut brace. Or is that just for looks?


http://www.j-garage.com/pic/1/accord/7.jpg

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Originally Posted by yfin

The Acura TSX is made in Japan.

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To Acura (America) specifications? Anyhow, I asked specifically about the strut brace, rather than the car. When a car is 'Made in' a certain country, it doesn't necessarily mean that every part of it was made and/or installed in that country, but I'm sure you knew that.

Anyway, I find it interesting that you keep on emphasising my peripheral points while avoiding the substantive point. Are you really interested in the substance of this discussion or are you just trying to win an argument for the sake of it?

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And the Euro R has a factory strut brace. Or is that just for looks?

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Firstly, please read my posts carefully before attempting witty sarcasm. There is a difference between something being done "more for" marketing (as in to let people 'see' that the TSX does in fact offer more than the budget-oriented Euro Accord) and being done "just for looks". But I'm sure you knew that.

The last time I checked, the Euro R did not have a factory strut brace. Where did that picture come from? Is it a Euro R? What model-year is it from?

Btw, do the TSX and R have an 18mm rear swaybar with a standard front swaybar?

most of the handling queries have been covered but perhaps i can add something of my own experience , On my dc5 i originally bought king lowering sprins ( just for lowered looks ) i found that the car was lower but it made no difference to how fast a could take corners ( perhaps a little less body roll ) i found with this setup that at about 140 km/h the car would get a hop to it ( to the pint were it felt quite danferous ) and i had to slow down to get the car to be more stable . I then went to a set of tein HA coilovers , this got rid of the hopping and i was able to go around corners much faster , I then added whiteline adjustable front and rea sway bars and this made the biggest imrovement for cornering speeds , the car was nice and flat so this allowed me to spend countless hours adjusting the coilovers to suit my taste , unforuntely after about a year of driving the car had shaken me to bits and i got a sore back from it ( i am a sales rep and do heaps of km's ) i now own a euro luxury and dont plan on modifying the sussy at all , however based on my previous experince with modding sussy;s i would start with sway bars ...

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

The last time I checked, the Euro R did not have a factory strut brace.

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Well you should check again. I have provided you with a picture of a Euro R engine bay - I am not going to spend more time on this point.

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Originally Posted by aleksandrov

Btw, do the TSX and R have an 18mm rear swaybar with a standard front swaybar?

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I haven't measured them and I don't plan to. The stock CL9 front sway is very thick - will be interesting to see a review of someone who has changed it.

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Originally Posted by yfin

Well you should check again.

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I tried, but there is only one engine bay picture of the R on the Honda Japan website and it's very narrow, so the tops of the struts are not visible, and neither is anything resembling a strut brace. I've seen other Euro R pictures in the past where it is quite clear that there is no strut brace. I've also asked a local importer of JDM Honda parts about a Euro R strut brace and he says the Euro R does not have one.

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I have provided you with a picture of a Euro R engine bay -

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Thanks for the photo, but as far as anybody relying only on the photo is concerned, that could well be an after-market strut brace. That's why I asked where the photo is from and what exact model it's supposed to be from. If it's too much trouble for you to answer, that's fine. But don't get your knickers in a knot when somebody inquires about the basis for your sweeping statements.

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I am not going to spend more time on this point....

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That's understandable, since you've already spent too much time on peripheral points while avoiding the substantive point.

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I haven't measured them and I don't plan to. ...

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In that case, what was the relevance of you pointing out that the TSX has a bigger rear sway bar than the Euro? Without knowing it's exact size and the size of the front bar, your comment about the TSX rear bar is totally irrelevant to the suggestion that replacing the rear swaybar alone with the 18mm Whiteline swaybar can be detrimental to the Euro's balance.

You shouldn't get so nippy when somebody questions the logic behind your statements. That's quite normal in intelligent discussions.

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The stock CL9 front sway is very thick - will be interesting to see a review of someone who has changed it.

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Yes it would. But bear in mind that thickness does not necessarily equal stiffness. An upgrade bar could well be the same thickness but stiffer or more progressive.

Picture is from here:
http://www.j-garage.com/honda/accord/euror.htm

How about you link to pictures of the CL7 without a strut brace?

As to the "substance" - I agree with you regarding Honda and Mugen development - they know plenty - but you need to keep in mind the reasons for having the Euro set up a particular way. It does not necessarily correlate to what Mugen or Honda think is absolutely best for handling. A balance is usually struck based on a lot of factors including target market, what is "safe" for the average (or bad) driver, and yes - cost. You might think a strut brace is minimal cost to Honda per vehicle - but over the production life of a car it is not insignificant. It does not mean Honda thought a strut brace is not worth while. The Euro R/TSX has extra bracing, thicker sway and different suspension for a reason. Sure some of this has to do with marketing – but more has to do with performance. The Australian market Euro is built to a relatively low price. Lets not forget that.
The fact Mugen does not sell strut braces or sway bars for the CL9 is a weak argument– it doesn't mean anything. I also disagree with your point about Eibach distributors refusing to sell a rear sway bar without the purchaser buying the front sway. That doesn't mean you need both and somehow the handling of a "finely tuned car" will be upset.Like I said – the front sway is very thick stock and you have plenty of Euro owners who have nothing but praise for the rear sway bar mod alone.

You also have owners who have much stiffer and infinitely better suspension than I do who later add the rear sway and love it (eg baboo). This should hopefully answer your argument about why I have not tested my new suspension without the whiteline bar and strut brace. I don't need to. I totally stand by my comment that the $200 Whiteline rear sway is better handling bang for buck than your $1600 suspension.


Lastly, if you think Eibach is so focused on selling products that must "go together" (eg rear and front sway sold together) so as to not upset the fine balance of the car – why do they sell springs which they say can be used with stock shocks (prokit)? That is hardly an ideal set up for a company focused on ensuring the "fine balance" is retained.

Does anyone have anything else to say about lowering the Euro - I think this thread has almost run its course...

i think all that needs to be said has been said... we'll all just have to agree to disagree on some points.