[EURO] Opinions on GruppeM intake

Ideally, what you almost want would be a dual inlet air intake: something that keeps the low down torque, and then opens up a second inlet that allows for a lot more air when needed for the upper rev range. You can now get butterflies for exhausts that open up when required -- I wonder of something like that would work for an intake?[/QUOTE]

my 92 Accord (F22A9) had dual intake runners. IIRC the 2nd intake opened ~ 3-3.5k rpm (you could feel a little kick), dunno why the later Hondas didn't stick to this approach..

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

hmm, i'm not sure if the design allows air to come in from the headlight fittings? it seems to be seeled off to that area, but i'll defintiely check it out when i have it installed. What's CFD?

i think you ahve a good point about the intake piping being left alone, Mugen also make use of this stock part of the intake system.

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CFD = Computational Fluid Dynamics = Fun provided you know what you're doing (I do :P)

You don't need to worry about airflow. The massflow of air that enters the area infront of the left wheel (usually occupied by the resonator chamber) is more than adequate to meet the needs of the engine at redline. Don't concern yourself with air starvation....it's not going to happen. In the case of your GruppeM intake it will primarily just draw in, and and also be fed air through the hole in which the the stock airtube passes.

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

So basically if your going without the horn i'd probably reccomend a mini horn like the mugen box so that you're drawing in air from the resonator cavity and not the engine bay. Interesting to see how it goes... be pretty funny if the horn was a big waste of time haha

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I wonder whethe the mugen horn is a waste of time - look at this pic! It only connects to the rubber OEM tube a few cms higher.

When I install my body kit i think I will remove the comptech horn - the only thing is if it is detrimental (or too noisy) it is a pain in the ass to reinstall again.

The reading I have done suggests a shorter intake tract is beter for high rpm power - and removing the Comptech horn will still be essentially sucking in cool air just like the Mugen/Gruppe.

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/image..._detailA_3.jpg

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Originally Posted by Matell

CFD = Computational Fluid Dynamics = Fun provided you know what you're doing (I do :P)

You don't need to worry about airflow. The massflow of air that enters the area infront of the left wheel (usually occupied by the resonator chamber) is more than adequate to meet the needs of the engine at redline. Don't concern yourself with air starvation....it's not going to happen. In the case of your GruppeM intake it will primarily just draw in, and and also be fed air through the hole in which the the stock airtube passes.

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Thanks.

Looks like i'll just get rid of any tubing if that's the case.

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Originally Posted by yfin

I wonder whethe the mugen horn is a waste of time - look at this pic! It only connects to the rubber OEM tube a few cms higher.

When I install my body kit i think I will remove the comptech horn - the only thing is if it is detrimental (or too noisy) it is a pain in the ass to reinstall again.

The reading I have done suggests a shorter intake tract is beter for high rpm power - and removing the Comptech horn will still be essentially sucking in cool air just like the Mugen/Gruppe.

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Good point... maybe the mugen horn is that length because it's a safe guard to heat soak only cold air is drawn in (the stock rubber thing may be slightly too high). Also, if I'm not mistaken the mugen comes with some sort of air direct panel? This may direct cold air toward the funnel meaning a shorter length is needed to access cold air. The comptech design may use the longer horn to get this cold air because it doesnt have an air direct?

I might be speaking crap, but i'll find a picture of the mugen Intake kit and see. If this air direct is an important part of the design, maybe something similar would work well for the GruppeM.

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

Good point... maybe the mugen horn is that length because it's a safe guard to heat soak only cold air is drawn in (the stock rubber thing may be slightly too high). Also, if I'm not mistaken the mugen comes with some sort of air direct panel? This may direct cold air toward the funnel meaning a shorter length is needed to access cold air. The comptech design may use the longer horn to get this cold air because it doesnt have an air direct?

I might be speaking crap, but i'll find a picture of the mugen Intake kit and see. If this air direct is an important part of the design, maybe something similar would work well for the GruppeM.

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These are the parts of the Mugen kit from Kingsports. Not sure what this air direct panel is - which part is it?

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/image...XKB-K0S0_3.jpg

Maybe you are right about the rubber connection being too high. What I could do is keep the top part of the icebox horn and remove the lower. The top part of the horn runs to where Euroaccord13's left hand is in this photo. That way I essentially have a mini horn - shorten the intake tract and also eliminate a corner (albeit smooth) in the intake tract. The theory being why suck air through a long straw when a short one is possible.

Look forward to seing what gruppe did with their design

http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/water...20DSC01472.JPG

Chris - not so sure about your comment re access to colder air. Anything past that OEM rubber is well away from the engine bay. It is also interesting to note Euroaccord13's thread here (his great drawings below)

If injen decided to sit the end of the tract high - good enough for me :thumbsup:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...eReviewWeb.gif

the air direct parts i'm refering too are directly above the intake horn, and directly to the right of the intake horn. I may be completely wrong about their function, but i think they are used for that.

I think removing the lower part of the intake horn may free up some high end power, but possibly at the sacrifice of low end. The mugen however is meant to give good gains throughout the rev range so i doubt this will happen given how similar the design would be after you removed it. May aswell give it a go :) And if you like it you can sell the bottom part of the horn to me and I'll stick in the fog cover opening to direct some air vertically to the gruppeM intake haha.

I think the biggest design flaw of the mugen intake and others is the relatively small filter surface area. The filter surface area of the Mugen intake for the DC5r is at least twice the size!

I think that the injen illustration is a bit misleading, they sit significantly lower than that, from the pictures i've seen. I think it's safe to say anything below the stock rubber piece will be drawing in cold air. I removed my rubber piece and would now put it back on :p but considering i'll be getting the GruppeM on tomorrow, there's not much point.

The way gruppeM has designed their intake is to place the filter as close as possible to the throttle body (directly attaching to the stock rubber inlet tube) and then as matt said, utilise the stock "intake tube hole" to get cold air. I'll hae to see if the carbon fiber shielding is enough to precent heat soak.. but i'm sure it will be :thumbsup:.

Also the use of the stock inlet tube on the gruppeM makes me wonder if this piece is well designed and not needed to be replaced? Mugen rarely replaces this part on its intake (it doesnt on the DC5R and cl7 intakes).

One final point, is that the CAI's on the market INJEN and K&N both use metal tubing and besides adding extra wait, wouldn't heat soak eventually become an issue as the fairly direct connection to the throttle body would allow heat to conduct through the metal tubing? The gruppeM using all rubber/plastic and carbon fiber coponents could possibly insulate better against heat and reduce intake temperatures :p

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

I think that the injen illustration is a bit misleading, they sit significantly lower than that, from the pictures i've seen. I think it's safe to say anything below the stock rubber piece will be drawing in cold air. I removed my rubber piece and would now put it back on :p but considering i'll be getting the GruppeM on tomorrow, there's not much point.

The way gruppeM has designed their intake is to place the filter as close as possible to the throttle body (directly attaching to the stock rubber inlet tube) and then as matt said, utilise the stock "intake tube hole" to get cold air. I'll hae to see if the carbon fiber shielding is enough to precent heat soak.. but i'm sure it will be :thumbsup:.

Also the use of the stock inlet tube on the gruppeM makes me wonder if this piece is well designed and not needed to be replaced? Mugen rarely replaces this part on its intake (it doesnt on the DC5R and cl7 intakes).

One final point, is that the CAI's on the market INJEN and K&N both use metal tubing and besides adding extra wait, wouldn't heat soak eventually become an issue as the fairly direct connection to the throttle body would allow heat to conduct through the metal tubing? The gruppeM using all rubber/plastic and carbon fiber coponents could possibly insulate better against heat and reduce intake temperatures :p

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There were some injen cai install pics by a member Euro_r a while ago. It showed the intake sitting that high - I think that is where euroaccord13 got the location from. The links to those pics have gone unfortunately. It was a great pic as the bumper was completely removed :(

I don't know how much of an issue heat soak is with metal tubing. Probably minimal given the huge volume of cold air sucked away from the engine bay. Short ram is a totaly different story

Anyone considering removing the air horn from their icebox derived setup should also keep in mind that the primary purpose of the air-horn is to develop smooth airflow into the intake tract.

The bell-mouth allows a gradual acceleration of air particles into the opening which also reduces the static air pressure, thus creating suction. This effectively increases the intake capture area to around the sides of the intake opening and assures the airflow is reasonably uniform.

Removing the air horn will only be of detriment to the induction air flow.

In this case the flow state of the air is much more important than the intake temp change which will be negligible at best.

These my help you illustrate your point yfin.
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/1...2889sml4bo.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1524/img3811sml6ii.jpg

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Originally Posted by yfin

There were some injen cai install pics by a member Euro_r a while ago. It showed the intake sitting that high - I think that is where euroaccord13 got the location from. The links to those pics have gone unfortunately. It was a great pic as the bumper was completely removed :(

I don't know how much of an issue heat soak is with metal tubing. Probably minimal given the huge volume of cold air sucked away from the engine bay. Short ram is a totaly different story

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Oh true, maybe i got the injen and K&N mixed up.

Yea i'd say the effects of heat soak would be minimal, unless your doing endurance racing or something. I've touched CAI tubing before (not on a euro) and it can get a bit hot after hard driving. But like matt said the difference to intake temperature would be fairly insignificant.

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Originally Posted by Matell

Anyone considering removing the air horn from their icebox derived setup should also keep in mind that the primary purpose of the air-horn is to develop smooth airflow into the intake tract.

The bell-mouth allows a gradual acceleration of air particles into the opening which also reduces the static air pressure, thus creating suction. This effectively increases the intake capture area to around the sides of the intake opening and assures the airflow is reasonably uniform.

Removing the air horn will only be of detriment to the induction air flow.

In this case the flow state of the air is much more important than the intake temp change which will be negligible at best.

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Interesting, I always assumed that the air horn was design simply to draw in cold air. If the horn does serve this additional function though how does mugen get around this problem? I guess the mugen horn has been design to be that short/in that location with the funel shape. Removing the lower half of the horn on the ICEbox would mean no funnel shape.

Matt, how do you think a pod filter effects the "flow state of the air" in comparison to a panel filter? Perhaps this (more than an additional surface area) helps pod style intakes generally produce (assumedly) more power?

thanks for the pictures matt :thumbsup:

maybe the shorter and larger diametre of the intake tube on the injen is why it showed marginally higher power gains then the K&N intake