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Im sorry, but I fail to see the IMO in the below blanket statement . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
You presented that as FACT and if someone with know knowledge had read that then they would assume that there shocks will 100% die before stock shocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
So you are saying claims made by the majorty of Japanese companies to overhaul coilovers at 10-15,000km's or 1-2 year to make them run optimally is incorrect?
And implying that OEM coilovers should follow this advise also?
In most cases that is true. Aftermarket shocks will begin to NOT run as optimally as they should before OEM shocks would. If you think or know otherwise, you should be telling these companies that they are full of it. I guess it would be false advertising then ey?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdster
Well people with no knowledge reading this thread would also think that Koni is the best, and that Koni is up there with Bilstein and things like that. I'm sorry, but there is no way on earth that, that is possible.
I'm talking about comments like these:
He also followed up with Koni and Bilstein to be the only readily available damper... niiiccceeee....Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL
Im sorry, but why arnt they good or on par with the Bilstein's? Koni produce a very good shock and I would have no qualms in recommending them. They are used in lots of race applications and have been around for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
Drive with both of them and compare. You'll be quite surprised...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdster
Also, it's quite funny... you are arguing over pretty much a product review, and telling me that my own observations and learnings are incorrect. Nice man - definately the noob controller :). You ask for a study, yet I see nothing backing up your claims, at least all my opinions and experiences are first hand. Can you supply some first hand experience comparing Koni's with multiple springs, to different coilovers you have used and Spring and Shock combos?
sorry,i tend to believe the guys with shock dynos & years of racing experience in both driving & setting up(propoerly,actually knowing what they are trying to achieve),then one man who obviously doesnt have a clue whats going on under his car............Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
you ride against the overwhelming majority in most of your claims,maybe time to learn whats actually needed to be achieved under your car,your "IMO's" are starting to make u look real amateur........
I guess you have Koni's! :D
It's a forum mate. A place where people share opinions and experiences. If you can't add to them, and want to stick with your Koni's that's awesome.
Do you track you car? Because I have noticed a MASSIVE 2.1 second difference in lap times by just changing coilovers. Doesn't that say anything to you?
I wouldn't disagree, and I'd go further; if you were racing seriously on them (implying a decent budget), then rebuilds might be advisable at the start of each season's racing to ensure optimum performance. This would go for any brand damper capable of being rebuilt.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
Keep in mind that dampers used exclusively on the track would have an easier life than one used on the road, far less km and far smoother surfaces. Konis generally do seem to hold up well to longer periods of road usage (including rough roads), and many others seem not to...
This is because performance level for ordinary road use isn't nearly as important as it is for a 'sports' or racing application. Also, stock dampers are typically fairly soft in rate (with some exceptions), and the softer the valving the lower the internal pressures will be inside the damper. This means that the softer damper will tend to last longer than a stiffer damper, all else being equal. The stiffer the damper the higher it's quality needs to be in order to last X time / use. Keep in mind that the vast majority of OE dampers cannot be rebuilt as you have to destroy them to get them apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
I expect that you are presenting your experience in good faith, so in that regard I am taking your opinion seriously. It's just that it's so at odds with my understanding and experience. Do note that I haven't used any derogative terms (e.g. BS) or attempted to belittle you.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
To some degree yes, but of course I don't have experience of every brand out there, and I expect almost nobody does (do note that in the article I linked to the author only bags some of the more common / popularly highly regarded brands, admitting to no experience with some others).Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
There may well be brands that perform overall as well or better than Koni (e.g. Bilstein), or others that perform as well or even better in specific circumstances and applications (and do note that Koni has dedicated racing dampers that are a step above their bread and butter lines). With many brands, the dampers they use in competition are a long way from their bread and butter, possibly the most notable exception being Bilstein (where the racing and road dampers are more or less internally identical), but I don't think Koni bread and butter is all that far from their cream. I'm not defending any particular brand of spring that might be used in conjunction with Konis (or other good dampers sold seperate to the springs).
I am trying to prick the too commonly held notion that aftermarket 'coilovers' are inherantly superior to aftermarket 'dampers and springs' (which of course are also coilovers) just because they are cleverly marketed as 'coilovers'.
I am defending Koni against being characterised as "crap" etc, because it just isn't the case (IMO, and that of many others, including many professional suspension engineers).
What it says to me (suggests at least) is that on that track on that day the 'coilovers' you used had spring / damper rates that more suited the prevailing conditions than the dampers / spring combination you were using previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
It still sounds to me like you might be comparing apples and oranges (?) because the difference in lap times could have been due less to the dampers and more to do with any differences in spring rates, or anything else that might have been different between the two set ups such as ride heights....?
I'm sure you can get other high quality stand alone dampers if you go looking, and want to pay significantly more, but Koni and Bilstein would be by far the most common and readily sourced that would also bolt straight in...Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
Good points made above. And I might have been a little harsh in saying that they are crap. But comparing them to a "coilover" (yes I know that a shock spring is a coilover, just using this terms to differentiate the two) I didn't like them. And I most likely got a dogdgy set, cos they stuffed up on me.
Springs rates are the same, tyres were the same (only 6 months older and staler for the quicker run), same pressure, temps were 3 degrees warmer, ride height is identical, same camber, same wheel alignment settings, Car was the same weight, only I put on 8kg (in 6 months) LOL, I lost 8kW in peak (as new tune was for street, low to mid range). Only thing between the 2 systems that I noticed distinctly, is that the zeals react to one or 2 clicks of the damper controller, where as the BC's 7-15 was unnotiable. I pretty much went out there to compare the 2 different coilovers systems, as I like to test and see what new parts actually do to a car (I am learning afterall), and what better way is there to test than to throw them on your car and track? You can do all the reading you want, and watch as many races on TV as you want... but if the variable between the seat and steering wheel is changing, what good is that in comparing different products? From what I have tried a shock is defiantely not a shock. The Zeal shat all over the BC 10 times over. Street, track, dirt roads. I just don't get how you can confidently comment on what is better if you haven't trialed multiple products on your own very car, holding as many variables constant as you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL
It's funny that you say that, because I am still yet to meet someone with a Bilstein shock. Where as KW, Jap coilovers, Ohlins, Showa I have seen and tried first hand. Not all of the have been in my car per say.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL
It's not impossible that you had a "dodgy" set, even the best companies have quality control issues at times. It could be that Koni had a bad batch of something from a supplier, say seals or whatever, just speculating.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
I know that you know that the stock set up is a coilover design, I just get a bit tired of so many people making the error of assuming that 'coilovers' are inherantly different in some manner. The more often this error is repeated the more misunderstanding is generated, though it is a rather convenient if false differentiation...
Sure, there are typically (by which I mean possibly not in all cases) more adjustments than you get with say a Koni, but typically the only really useful one is the infinite ride height adjustment (something else for people to mess up!). The 'coilover' bump rate adjusters are typically next to useless (almost zero range, despite a heap of 'clicks') and the range of rebound adjustment quite small re Konis (I've seen the dyno sheets).
Track rubber? There's a huge difference between a grippy and non grippy track. All it takes is a bit of rain and the grip goes away.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
So you were testing two different brands of 'coilover' against each other, not Konis / springs and 'coilovers'?Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
I'd suggest that if a big change on the adjuster makes no noticable difference (or only a small difference), then the damper is probably not very good...
That can be a big difference right there. I know from experience in karts that you can arrive at the track in the morning and play with the settings, getting faster and faster as the day goes on, but at the end of the day the set up can actually be worse than when you started, despite the faster times.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
The reason being that as the day progressed the driver him/herself improved more than the set up deteriorated. This is especially possible if the driver is only in the kart every month or so (or less often), rather than every weekend. I'm sure it's the same for car drivers who aren't on the track all that often.
I'm not a suspension expert, though I have given the subject a fair bit of study and thought. I can only comment from my own experience and thinking, and from the experieces related to me by people who's opinion I trust, or from information I've read from apparently reliable, knowledgeable and experienced sources. It's the best any of us can do unless we can afford the money and time to test every available option in stringently controlled conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE
I've yet to see Bilsteins on a Honda (on other cars yes), but I'm told they're not hard to get (hearsay though, never researched Bilstein availability for Hondas personally). Konis seem much more common, I suspect perhaps because most people really like the idea of having some adjustment, though adjustment per se doesn't necessarily mean that the damper is any better...Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECMACHINE