Quote:
Originally Posted by will13
maybe very early on, but i dobut anyone did anything serious with the D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will13
maybe very early on, but i dobut anyone did anything serious with the D
theres been some decent turbo ones thats about it
yeah but nothing really special esp when theres off the shelf kits - no serious NA builds
Back in 2002 or so , my old eg hatch set up with d16a8 twin cam with i/h/e , exedy heavy duty clutch ran 15.1@90mph.Quote:
Originally Posted by will13
JonSton ran 11.9 in his turbo D16A8 Gen2 CRX. On the dyno he's making anywhere between 200kw-250kw ATW.
Dunno about N/A D-series though
is there many really big NA builds anyway?? (B or D series)
Yeah there are a few with stock blocks with a cam in the head but nothing major like port/polish, lumpy cam, new springs, pistons, rods, 10kRPM. etc etc
I know 12PIN has a big K series build in his DC5R, i'm sure theres a handful more, but most people are just IHE or a good turbo setup.
agreedQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
I'm unsure N/A...
Would be great to find out,I bet there's a few who are silent and will never know about..
Beeza hows ur auto trans handeling the extra power from ur mods?
Great question man!!
Cause I know now,it's the driveshaft that wears.It gets freeplay/movement in it,then needs to be replaced.All the power/energy is put onto where the inner driveshaft joins the left and right outer driveshaft,where the CV boot is,that's where it joins and wears etc.
So my car started shaking at 60km then 100km,took it to my man,geoff @ sebring mufflers and found out there was quite a bit of freeplay and the whole inner and outer driveshaft needed to be replaced.$330 for the whole driveshaft and $120 for fitting = $450.
Now the car feels solid as! just awesome,so I dont wanna track funtil I get the cam in,just enjoying it now!
I went for a 3 hour drive through the hinterland just now,so nice! At my mates now :)
Wtf beez 450 for a shaft?
Theres a place in cooparoo that supplies and fits new shafts for under 200...
Is that second hand though? this was recon/new one.Just like new.
brand new man
ouch - did you shop around before getting it done?
what shafts beez? OEM Rebuilt?
I think you can get a pair of stage 1 hasports for about 450. Install wouldn't be much more then what you paid. And they're brand new + upgraded.
i got new ones from honda for 1200
so dont feel bad breeza
wow brand new !Quote:
Originally Posted by 90LAN
Cheers Guys!
Yeah,OEM reconitioned.
Wow! Those hasports sound the go!!
I wont have any worry tracking then,I will need it too with the cam.
Can 100kw atw be achieved with a N/A D-Series? And if so what parts would be needed....
Was wondering what would be cheaper to achieve this power figure. Modding the D-Series or chucking in a B Series with some mods.
Check out d-series.org Nightkids,so much info on there,they always are talking about thier set ups and U get to know what the d needs/wants to make it go!
Thanks i'm actually on there right now reading the N/A Noob setup section.
Here's my situation, i got a bit over 200,000km on my engine. It blows a cloud of smoke when I hit VTEC, like heaps! Been told that maybe my rings are gone. Got quoted $3000 for a OEM rebuild.
I've put a few things on there like a brand new Exedy HD Clutch, Exedy lightened flywheel & also did the major service which cost me $1000. Also have a SRI.
Seems like a real waste to just throw everything out and chuck a B series engine in. If I seperate, don't think there will be a big interest with my parts.
So what do you suggest I do? Looking to hit 100kw atw but this seems highly unrealistic with a N/A setup. A lot are only hitting around 80kw atw. Budget is around $2000-$3000.
lol, its still going through an auto box which will pull the power down quite considerably. If you were going turbo + cam + headwork + LSD or something along those lines i'd look at the bigger shafts.Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
Its really a matter of how the power is applied. If its a sudden application from a dead stop then you will either spin the wheels or break a shaft. If you have a standing start situation i recommend pre-loading the driveline.
In an auto you just have it in drive, left foot on the brake, right foot on the accelerator as far as you can without the car moving forward. Then release the brake and plant your foot on the accelerator :thumbsup:
Preload will save shafts, so you could probably stick with your new set you've already got.
What engine are you running ?Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKids
For a D16 single cam Vtec 100+kw can be done you just need P29 or PG6 pistons,Cyl head will need port blending only a good valve job good valve springs/retainers and a Bisi cam with a cam gear,a ported intake manifold fitted with a B16a TB Headers will need to be 44.5mm primary's with a 60mm exhaust.And the most important part SOMEONE that knows how to tune this setup and not some e-tuner that has no idea how an engine works and needs to be tuned.I have seen 99kw out of one of these setups using a STD cam but it was on the dyno for days playing around with it.To make that engine nice to drive it ended up with 92kw to make the best mid range power.
Unsure about power figures,d-series will know.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKids
What engine is it?
I would get another Head,IM and TB.Send them off to Yonas.He can get headwork done,cleaned in the hot cold tank etc for $800-$1200.U can have a lil' milled off the head to for a lilttle bump in compression.Don't bother with a thinner headgasket it's not worth it for a .1 bump in compression.TB can be bored out to 60mm for $195 and a skunk2 IM.
The last section on this page should give U some understanding of the awesome benefits that come from p&p the head,then porting the IM and TB.
http://portandpolish.blogspot.com/
A stage 1 bisi cam requires no tuning,save on cost and will go hand in hand with the port work.
So now U have the new head,IM and TB to go in.When U get them put in U can do the rings and anything else that may need repairing when the head is off.
Maybe some high comp pistons if U have the extra cash.
The good thing about the stage 1 bisi cam is U dont need to upgrade the valves,springs and retainers.
Everyone on d-series will tell U stage 1 is a waste of time,it wont be to me.
If U have the money then go stage 2,upgraded valves,springs and retainers and tune with greddy or something = more money!
Why dont U sign up on d-series,tell them ya planned mods and ask what power will I be looking at,guys do it all the time.Note,they aren't familiar with kw's ,just hp lol
Preloading bogs my car,the best way i to just plant ity,trust me :pQuote:
Originally Posted by JasonGilholme
If I break this driveshaft I'll get the hasports,doubt I will for a while though,I mean the last one was 120,000k's,70,000 of which was my driving :thumbsup:
The party pooper is here with some terrible truths:wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKids
Low budget horspower from a D-series engine is a Myth!
There is no such thing as an Exedy lightened flywheel for a D-series...
Only really poor people dream about modifying D-series Honda's
Anyway... Wake up! & stop getting ripped off...
NightKids, your car sounds like it needs maintenance, not modification.
Your budget will just about cover a stock rebuild...
Why don't you just do that or get a stock transplant & keep some change in your pocket.
I vote do the latter...
& please... Stop buying parts that don't exist, it's sad.
(I'm not meaning to be offensive saying this)
LOL...Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
That's right fellas,
Send your spare head off to someone who hasn't a clue how to port it...
Experience has now been replaced by a machine....
Not a CNC head porter, no siree
Just a quick trip through the hot cold tank & "BAM!" it's ported! & clean!
F@cken wow!
Gotta get me one of those tanks... LOL
(No offence Yonas... That sentence was just too funny to leave alone)
You can get a B16a running gear for as low as 2k these days. Do the labour yourself and you'll be laughing at the D-series once your done
/\ Even better option... LOL
(Unless you're a D-seriesaphile)
there is no point tryna help boys, they dont listen , let them waste their monies., and still get beaten by a stock b16a
lol you're not alone laughingQuote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
some people are quite interesting eh....
We are not the one who is doing it , one of my guy who got a machine shop doing it. Im happy with their work.Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
To be honest just B series it , easier to get power.
What da hell do you mean I'm buying parts that don't exist? You freaken calling me a liar or something? Well I hate to break the terrible truth to ya but Exedy lightened flywheel do exist for the D-Series. Here's the packaging I have at home to 'prove' that I did really buy the parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
http://img2.pict.com/58/12/65/2852750/0/dscn1481.jpg
http://img2.pict.com/c8/85/09/2852751/0/dscn1482.jpg
Here's the link with the information. http://www.racinglab.com/exedy-flywheel-hf501.html
Acura/Honda (D-Series) Exedy Lightweight Flywheel (HF501)
Honda
1990-91 Civic 1.5L D15
1992-95 Civic 1.5L D15
1990-91 Civic 1.6L D16 SOHC
1992-00 Civic 1.6L D16 SOHC
2001-05 Civic 1.7L D17 SOHC
And just in case you say it's not right, doesn't fit... I have it in my car atm!
You may be a respected tuner... blah blah blah, but seriously that post just made you sound like a douchebag. I'm simply looking at my options cause if I don't need to go B-series for my power expectations then I won't, providing it'll be a realistic with $$$. At the end I may end up with the B-series but it doesn't help to do some research, which you obviously haven't done in regards to the D-series flywheel. Do your research before you acuse someone next time, it's sad.
how much taht set you back?
Lol
I had a TODA flywheel for d series... Hand delivered by mr TODA AU himself early one morn years ago. Worked well. But then again , I had the only d series ever worth mentioning in history (d16a8/zc).
I quickly learnt that d series are weak power weak internal and just not worth time modifying AT ALL. Spend the money on a mortgage or food.
My 2 cents
i like my lil sohc y1 - reminds me of my first exa turbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKids
FTMFW:thumbsup:
IMO if people want to mod D series they should just do it, dont listen to other people saying its a waste of money, if your passionate bout doing it and want to see how far the motor can be pushed well you should go for it.
Money isn't everything in this world, the experiance of saying what you achived may be worth it. and if it isn't worth it, well it was great ride while it lasted
having fun doesn't mean being the fastest. :thumbsup:
^^ Yes,something SOME will never get lol
Adrian,my one wish would be for U to sign up on d-series.org and say what U say about the d here,there.
I would LOVE for U to 'tell' all these guys who are PASSIONATE about the d-series engine just what a piece of shit it is,would LOVE that!
Post results hehe
I am not poor but I dont have money either :)
brett , the plain fact is D series do no do good numbers easily anywhere in the world. The only ones....are worked off their **** and highly strung and NOT daily drivers.
Any B or k or XXX series are already quick , and it takes little to improve them.
Having said that , YOU as a d series owner have to accept this - and accept that others have been thru this exact same process ( such as me ) and worked out the long way. You cant flog a dead horse.
Anyway , for what its worth - i love all you guys for sticking to it.
A question tho -
You , and others as d series owners......if you had a spare $5k-10k to spend in one hit on your car would you get a B series ?
definally, im saving up for one atm:DQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
Good question ben, but i think the people that do answer should specify whether they are after a performance car, or if they're just having fun with what they've got. Cause that one factor changes the whole situation. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
FWIW, if it was me, and i had a d series car, it would probably be my daily driver. Not because i already have another car, but because its NOT a performance car in my mind. I'd probably do a few things to it (nice muffler, panel filter, a gauge or two for engine monitoring and some stereo gear), but i wouldn't consider spending a large chuck of money like that on the car AT ALL.
For 5 - 10k i could get a new daily driver for the next 5 - 10 years lol
Ah huh ! Another bites the dust n joins the dark side. You , as a D series enthusiast said yourselfQuote:
Originally Posted by ekcoupe
And , the fact is the engine as it is will make as much power as it ever will :thumbsup:Quote:
give the engine as much power as i can without putting in a turbo or engine swap, get a few bars for the suspension.
well having a y7 auto not much power, and seeing how a b18c goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
thats what changed my mind
I'm not looking for power benny.I'm after the most perfect balance I can find between power,weight and handling.
And that's a GREAT question,one that REALLY has no definate answer for me.I mean a b18c with I/H/E ECU OR y8 with I/H/E ,port work,cam,ECU.Great question,both would be great.
I would have to have to go the d to be different :)
I Love the simplicity of the d,always will.
at the end of the day, theres not much difference between the two that would concern the user. Maybe the servicing but the difference wouldn't be that much if you look after your D already.Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
Are you sure you're in love with the simplicity of the D or in love with the simplicity of not having to do a conversion??
Yeah that's the thing Jase :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonGilholme
Would LOVE a d with great port work,I/H/E,cam,ECU,now that would be fun to drive :thumbsup:
I dont care about beating anyone lol :cool:
haha LOVE ya Jase! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JasonGilholme
Looking forward to getting the cam in there,it gets sent here this week :thumbsup:
Finally^^^
Ignorance is bliss ahhhh.
Sorry Bezza but it's true, you'll get more torque, oem reliabilty, etc, etc from a b-series.
End of day you'll do what you want but you're better off putting that b18 in that you have sitting there.
hehe,do U do that much? Tell people what they are better off doing?
:)
Freedom of speech, forums are a public space.Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
If you didn't want the public to voice their opinion, you don't post on a forum.
It's just the same thing being repeated over and over and over.
Tell ya what,give me $3k and I'll 'put it in'.
I mean,if I had the money I would put the b18c in there,DUH!
Guess what - NO MONEY!
Sorry to come accross as rude but cars cost money right? So how can U say jsut do this!
I mean if I could 'just do this or that' I bloody well would!
You do realise how much properly porting, etc costs?Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
What else do you need apart from maybe an exhaust modification to fit it into the car?
yeah but a swap is expensive. You can still have fun in a d. I have heaps of fun in my d. Im agreeing with beeza now. Performance will come much later when i have money. Atm 4m just lookiog for cheap fun
Hmm...
When I first started out with cars, naturally I was heavily interested in my first car, a nissan pintara. That sported a wonderful KA24E.......I use to think it was the best motor in the world (not literally lol)
Anyway, I ended up rebuilding the engine myself with high comp pistons, rebuilt head, camshaft, tune, bla bla...It was "fun" but I got over it and wanted more power, so I researched engines more, alot like you guys now, but you seem to be only interested in camshafts by other people, probably because you don't want to re-invent the wheel again I say. I actually got that far, I had a set of prints I designed for the next motor, custom rods, pistons, cam, dual head swap, custom headers, intake, the lot. I knew the motors in the states in race cars pushed 345hp NA - this gee'd me up like crazy. I guess much like you guys and the bisi cars.
Now i'll be honest, don't bother with what you're doing, I mean keep the convo going and maybe keep it fun by talking about intake design one week, cam theories the next, etc etc but don't spend money on the D, as more days go past, your ring seal is degrading, and by the time you actually do get a decent head on that motor, the bottom end will need re-working, something you seem like your not prepared to do. I think I read auto in there somewhere, glhf with that.
I can see where Adrian is coming from, it is pretty silly to try and do what you're doing (no offense at all) but I was there once too and in hindsight, I wish I saved my money for something better. I will probably say it for anything I've done but who hasn't? If you must, go for it.. we only live once I guess.
But I never said I was going to do it!!Quote:
Originally Posted by lil_foy
Well U would def. need an exhaust,a auto gearbox plus bits and pieces,install.
Thanks Chris,I appreciate the knowledge mate.
just save a little longer and dont waste money....im on apprentice wages and bout to do a h swap
Yeah I know,if I scab it for ages I'll be able to do it lol
I dont wanna but,Love my d.
I think it was around $600-$700 all up. I bought it from the US. Our dollar wasn't that good then, it'll prob be cheaper now.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitoriko
well see the thing is when your spending money on camshafts for your d . You do seem to be having money . And you spent 450 on driveshafts. Seriously how much more would i cost to install the b18c to your car. Find a back yarder im sure it would be cheaper than all these parts youve bout for the d
Excellent post there Chris, unlike Adrian who doesn't even know what a D-Series flywheel is...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
I guess we all grow attached to certain things (D-Series) but I guess you're right. At the end of the day it is definately better to go B-series. Oh well I guess it's either going B or save up for another car now...
I bought the cam on the 28th November,workin' less hrs now.Quote:
Originally Posted by GSi_PSi
$450 on the driveshaft was a case of NEED TO DO or no car.
If I really wanted to put it in I would but all factors considered (for a long time),I don't/won't.
That's being smart/mature and responsible.
And not just 'whacking it in there' cause everyone thinks U should.
Cause they are a more powerful engine?Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKids
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
nice constructive post chris. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I played around with my first car too, not to the extent that you did, but more to the level that these guys will/have gone with their d's. The best thing i got from that car was experience and the right frame of mind. Yeah i spent some money that was better off being spent elsewhere but i got alot out of it in the long run.
IMO i'd rather spend money on a car that means something to me rather then wasting money on drugs & alcohol. lol
IDK why i keep posting in this thread, i got a B16! lol. I must just know where these guys are coming from and what they're going through.
haha awesome Jase!
Everyone wants to be the underdogs/the have nots!
God bless the child who can hold his own,no doubt!
^ I wanted to be the underdog too, I remember sitting back watching hondas going past thinking they don't know whats coming for them hahaha
Time will pass and you will know what we mean, I could bet $50 spend a day with me and i'll change your mindset from D's to B's.
Oh guaranteed Chris!
Or k's or J's L's R's WHATEVA!!
I often go and play with the b18c,look at it and think if U were in my car I would Love U as much as I do my d but money does not permit me to Love it LOL
But I still do :)
So,I'm still here on Ozhonda,just doing my thing man.Not chasing anything but a good time!
noQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
convert to RWD + 13bt
game over
You need to learn what the term love means :p. You use it so loosely hahah
Mate, I just assumed you were ripped off buying fake parts... (this does happen)Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKids
Anyway, to be honest, I didn't look too hard to see if the product had become available...My bad...
Anyway since you made. I did check & it was added in Feb 2008...
There you go... You're right, I'm wrong... (About the flywheel) :thumbsup:
As for your other comments going off the deep end...
Mate, you're taking it way too personally...
Fair enough you want to do your "Research"
But you really aught to listen to the advice you've been given.
Not just but me, but others who build & tune cars.
Unless someone wants to sell you some rubbish for your D,
Everyone in the industry says the same thing. Haven't you noticed that yet?
It's not a fluke.
This should utterly dominate your reasearch....
Myths of grunt master D-series engines online posted by dreamers should not...
In a nut shell, you're considering modifying a D...
This is not a smart thing to do... (or politely, a very bad idea)
The return on investment is appalling...
(particularly since you want value for money)
You don't need to take another step down this path...
You can walk away...
So call me what you want...
But in years to come, you'll look back & know that prick from Toda was right...
D-series :thumbdwn:
D --> B, its a natural progression. Been there done that, wont look back :thumbsup:
LOL.. What for?Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
People who are fanatical about stupid things are like religious zealots.
They want the pain...
Me… I don’t care enough to bother…
& there is little chance anything I said would make a difference...
lmfao zealots
hrm ... D series has been cheap fun ... but i wouldnt go so far to say im passionate about it like i was about my B series
For me, I just want to know what i can get out of it. I'm not spending loads of money, just a little here and there
and for those that keep coming into the d series thread and telling us to get B's...do you find us telling you to go get K20's instead? It's the same thing.
And if you say "but a b is actually fast"...its all relative. a turbo D can smoke a B. why dont we all go and do F20C / H22 / K20/4 conversions instead?
Rather than spending $3000 straight up for a swap, spending $300 here and there every now and then makes it affordable to do some mods NOW.
I can spend less than what it costs for a swap and be making the same power as a stock b16a2, the only real difference is that i have lower power ceiling than the B.
B series has been done to death in this country. I'd like to do something different. For a while anyway.
It also comes down to what we're trying to achieve, I don't understand why people constantly feel the need to try and talk people out of what they want to do. The ones who go ahead with it obviously have a purpose in mind, and who is anyone to try and make them do otherwise?
So can we get back to discussing D series things rather than B swaps like everywhere else on the forum? Let the thread serve its purpose
Fair enough you have stated your point. I'm flexible with staying with the D or going for a B. The thing is if say it costs $4000 to make the D get 100kw compared to say $5000 for a B engine swap then it's obviously a no-brainer i'll stick with the D.Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
But if it costs considerably more (which i'm starting to get the feeling it will) then i will get the B Transplant.
Don't forget i might have to factor in a new clutch & flywheel for the B-Series before I chuck it in so that may cost me a bit more too...
Will has a very valid point too, we could be telling the B-lovers to get a K, but we should all respect different engine types. What bisi have done is quite amazing & it has shown that the D-Series can be pretty decent. They have gotten a lot more respect that someone modding a B.
There is a difference between power though.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKids
Top-end does not nessecarly win a race, midrange is needed.
Then you have the fact you're using a modified engine and what always comes with modifications? Problems!
Like I said to Bezza, do what you want, but remember, there was a reason they put a b series in the itr, etc.
you won't get major problems if you do it correctly. Lots of big setups on OH that have been really reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by lil_foy
Don't forget theres a reason they put a k series in the DC5R. Its cause B's are shit. lol
modifying a d series isnt silly at all...
if you look around theres an endless supply of cheap engines. so for anyone on a budget there great. where prices for b series is still a little rich for the poorer like me. but being young and having a mortgage and having a love for cars, are big strains on a build budget (or lack of). so when people mod these engines i understand.
ive just got mine running
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8KMfV7L92E
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8KMfV7L92E[/YOUTUBE]
bit of a poor vid but least it runs. no cel lights after i played with it. its lightly worked ycp 12:1, 4-1 headers (ord), arp studs in the bottom end and the head, stock cam :(, ive also made the fuel system like a k series (the return is in the boot which means there is only 1 feed line to the engine no return) i have a oil pressure gauge in the return end of the fuel rail so i can adjust fuel pressure with a fpr from in the boot. im building up some itbs at the moment but ill wait to c how it goes for now.
being a little new to racing etc. this car has alot of brake and suspension work, and should b a all round fun car. however when a cheap b series or d series turbo kit comes up ill prob grab it ;)
If you MUST mod your D then please do it for irrational passion and amusement, not for 'power'.
I don't want to appear contradictive for the sake of it, but I'm not sure I agree with this. Like you said, it's all 'relative', and it's common knowledge that a DOHC will get much better gains than a SOHC. So ultimately the B16A2 would win out for relative value, since you don't need to mess with it to make 85-90kw like you do a D16Y1, and to give it the same mods as the D would make it a millenium falcon by comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by will13
Out of interest though, since I have a D16Y1 and a B16A, how would you plan to make approximately 90kw atw on a SOHC D, assuming that the B16A2 would make approximately that much power in stock form? Full head build + bolt-ons?
The problem here is that a D will cost you a few hundred dollars, a value matched by a single after market camshaft which might fetch you all of 2kw atw?Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKids
Again I don't want to be forceful - I love the D's, but the 'no-brainer' here would no doubt be to just splash out another $1k and get the B so that you have a stock motor, not tampered with, and with huge potential by comparison (for when you inevitably need more power).
Furthermore, for $5000 you'd probably be looking at a B18C2 conversion which is stock 125kw, has better gear ratios than a D, and more torque to boot. Or you could do a B16A2 with I/H/E.
IMO either of those B options would give a $4k 100kw D series a good run for it's money - the only problem is that by this stage the D-user is running out of options and needs to spend even larger amounts of money to get those pissy gains from serious mods, compared to the B-user who has various/more worthy options due to the stock B performance.
Like I said, only build D's for fun. I've done CAI and header on mine for $370 so far :)