this might seem as a dumb question but here goes.
you can only dyno tune your car if you have a aftermarket ecu, right??
and how much should it cost ruffly??
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this might seem as a dumb question but here goes.
you can only dyno tune your car if you have a aftermarket ecu, right??
and how much should it cost ruffly??
Correct you need a programmable ECU something that supports retime programming is very nice, for you to be able to tune your Honda above and beyond what Honda set as factory.
You could theoretically change / adjust cam gears on a dyno also but that’s kinda stupid changing cam gear angles and not adjusting the fuel to go with the settings.
Cost depends on which car you have, which stock ECU / wiring set you have ie OBD1 or OBD2 normally obd2 wiring (post 97 honda’s ) are more expensive.
Basic piggy back ECU’s such as AFC’s e-Manage link all the very low end devices which don’t normally handle things like vtec / ignition or cold starts correctly are between 600 and 1500 These devices sux because over time your stock eca makes corrections and auto adjusts the settings back to stock… which is why you will forever be dyno tuning your car.. good for workshops because you have to keep paying them retuning fee’s !! eheh
Full tuneable ECU’s that don’t intercept singles and are a much better option Motec, Hondata, Autronic etc they normaly allow total control of your car in every possible way, allowing more tuning to be done creating a more higher tuned engine resulting in normally increase power and more driveability. They cost between $750 - $4000 depending on units.
Regards James
You forgot Microtech :lol:
microtech hmmm they forgot one key thing... part thotte tuning ;) ehhehehe unless they have changed.... plus cold start whats that !! ?? hmmm
Regards James
I think they have changed.....and what is part throttle hehehe
The e-manage has fully programmable fuel, ignition and injector maps(16x16)It also supports is own pressure sensors and if used it can make adjustments finer then using stock MAP/AFM sensors. It can control vtec engagement and disengagement points, as well as datalogging, realtime tuning. It can tune part throttle also.Quote:
Originally Posted by BLKCRX
The newer Microtech's are much better at controlling part throttle from what i understand.
Haltech can also be thrown in there as well. TSI is a nice little interceptor that should work well with OBD2 ecu's that are a pain in the ass with Hondata
The problem with E manage is it still intercepts signals form the ECU, tuning is actually not real time its takes 2 seconds or so for updates which suxs hardcore for dyno tuners especially when tuning a boosted car as 2 seconds the engine can go BANG!! This only really allows for ramp tuning.
The reason why intercepting signals suxs is because both obd1 and obd2 Honda computers have a short term and long term o2 signals which according to its o2 sensor rich or lean off fuel valves, as well as retarding ignition from the knock sensor, in time any intercepting device becomes invisible to the stock Honda ecu, forcing you to have another dyno tune, reset the ecu etc. The new dc5 honda flash rom ecu’s learn so fast within 3 dyno pulls there already back to factory settings. The E manage also has the limitation of only reading up to 9psi of boost and a few other known bugs.. for that price there’s much better options, its just some workshops will sware there good only because they make huge profit margins on them !!! recommending what good for there pocket not what’s good for the customer. Haltek is another good ECU, although cold start is what it lacks, and external single imputs and outputs.
YAY for microtech finally fixing up there part throttle, I wonder what they changed / added…. ill have to borrow one and see how they compare now a days, because before hmm shocking.
OBD2 is’t a pain in the arse its just more expensive ;) your only limited to your modifications on you car by the size of your pocket and how much you want to spend.
I always choose quality and function over price, things are normally expensive for a reason.
Regards James
Ok i'll make sure i keep that learnign stuff in mind when i get mine. It comes as standard in the turbo kit i'm grabbing, so on the pocket its basically costing nothing for a tunable system. Personally though one thing doesn sit right, greddy and other kit providers include piggyback systems in all thier kits (including GSR's)- why would they do this - becuase i'm sure they will be liable when something pop's due to the ECU relearning..? Is this the same with rising rate FPR's and igniton coils (ala MSD) which retard timing with boost??
Regarding the 9PSI statement, i dont see how that can be true. Check out the emanage groups on yahoo, their are some for WRX's, TT Supra's and its a popular choice with EVO's, all of which run more boost then above.
Good thread though, tuning out better then just saying 'this sucks, this is good' if u know what i mean.
E manage have different products for different car’s, designed for the stock map sensor.
The stock Honda map sensor a 2.2V sensor can only read 11psi, factor into the fact you don’t’ want to max out your sensor a safe level is 9psi or so that you can accurately read.
So that’s where e manage limits lie, and due to the fact you can’t configure it for a different voltage map sensor such as the 3 or 4bar motec map sensor that many ecu’s use. And trust me you don’t want to push the limits of the stock map sensor !!
Not many kits actually provide ecu based computers with there kits FMU’s and FPR’s MSD ignition retard etc change the final output directly to the engine they don’t fool the ecu into thinking / reading a different valve so these devices do work completely different, so that’s why these devices re fine.
As for buying a turbo kit why don’t you make up your own !! trust me it’s a much better option than using any kit !! always resulting in a higher quality reliable product, every kit cuts some corner !!!!
At the end of the day all you need is a very strong turbo manifold, a nice turbo, oil feed lines, a intercooler and exhaust modified and some cooler pipes, 4 larger injectors, a nice fuel regulator to make sure fuel is flowing nicely, nice intake fuel pump and some decent engine management which will handle anything you though at it, why do things twice do it correctly the first time
Regards James
not all interceptors have those closed-loop self learning issues however, as some are closed-loop compatible and shouldnt have those problems (shouldn't being the operative word, i'm yet to find this out first-hand).
OBD2 is a pain in the ass compared to OBD1 cars for Hondata, and yes it gets to be more than i would spend on Hondata :P
I think Haltech have solved cold-start issues, as they have new E6X and E11 ecu's out now
Unfortunately not everyone can leave price as the last variable in their choices :wink:
Any third party device can not tell the ecu to be in closed loop or open loop! Impossible with the Honda ECU. The Honda ecu will self learn unless its programmed physically out of the ecu or fully replaced, don’t believe everything you read ! I know how all OBD1 and 2 and OBD3 ecu’s work like the back of my hand.
OBD2 is no pain in the arse you just by the obd2 conversion ECU plug it straight in simple plug and play, just cots 800$ extra. Plug and play is no pain in the arse!, if it is hmmm I guess sex is also a pain in the arse also !! LOL all you do is push and its done.
Regards James
OK James so what does that $800 include?
My understanding, if it is plug and play, is that it would include a socketed OBD1 ECU (though which one would be compatible for my car, a '96 Accord, i dont know) and an OBD2 to OBD1 conversion harness only? Cos anymore than that wouldn't be plug n play.
The question also is, would this be legal to do on an OBD2 car, since OBD2 should in theory have less emissions than OBD1.
Of course a third party device cant tell the ECU whether to be in open or closed loop, it is in closed loop during certain throttle conditions and open during other throttle conditions.
However during closed loop it would still be possible for an interceptor to modify the MAP signal to give the ECU the signal it wants, yses? I mean if this is not the case, then how are so many XR6-T's, for example (which are supposed to have very compliacted ECU's) being controlled by stupidly simple interceptors like Unichips? I dont know whether this is correct or not, just posing the question and looking for answers :)
The 800$ includes a fully replacement ECU that plugs directly up to your original wiring harness in your case obd2 version A, no wiring harness no nothing, it’s a direct plug into your wiring, no cutting modifying etc plug and play. You fully remove your stock obd2 ECU and replace it with the Hondata ECU.
The programming with regards to emissions / engine is all controlled by Hondata. Hondata has complied with ADR37 /00 which is post 97 obd2 regulations making it more certified than obd2 emissions levels when tuned by authorised tuners so no problems there.
Regards James
I am getting a kit for many reasons.
1) the kit has proven a million times over to be perfect for a daily driver on a stock bottomend. Perfect fit and boost response on stock civic.
2) It costs alot less then _I_ could source second hand parts for, and i get alot less troubles that are asociated with second hand turbo parts. New parts would easily cost WAY more.
3) I get tunable management. Yes its not a hondata, BUT has once again, proven to be very effective for the boost i plan on running.
4) In the US, ppl daily boost 10-11psi, i am aware of our seonsors limits. hell i can get a GM 3-bar map sent over fromt he US for alot less the a factory sensor and use it with the e-manage boost harness. Regarless, i am running a stock motor, the 'effective' boost limit does not apply in my situation.
5) I can install everything myself, no labour costs, and i get to learn a whole heep in the meantime. I'm not a showmonky with a fat wallet, i like being involved. Everything the kit includes allows me to do this without the hassle (build time) and worries that i have forgotton something.
6) I have everything needed to tune the e-manage. This means i have an option of where i take my car to be tuned, if there was a hondata tuner in Sydney i would consider that option alot more (i could flog my e-manage and acc. off for $900+).
So they are basically my reasons to go for a kit.
I am still interested in honda/ecu chipping though, but what are my options with boost. DO i need a 'boost' enabled hondata - which start at something like 1000+, or can i just use it for A/F, ingnition, injectors through the base 200b unit?
Furthermore to Weq's statement - I've heard that there aren't unfortunately any tuners in Sydnet for Hondata, but I and a few others are interested in purchase - what are the possibilities of a tuner coming from another state? ie vic? for a bulk tune day?
-az
James (BLKCRX) tunes Hondata ECUs and he is willing to tune interstate if you pay for his flight or something similar. contact him aaron!
Mo it kinda isnt the point. Paying that much for a tune isnt worth it the trouble, esp when thier are other solutions out thier.
how much would you pay for a tune? i remember talking to james and he said he will tune for free if u paid for his flight and im sure flights up and down from melb are cheap!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Weq
Tuning is not always a one-off job. Some cars go through numerous tuning sessions before maximum power is gained.Quote:
how much would you pay for a tune?
A decent tune these days can cost up to $200, depending on how much the workshop charges per hour or whether they tune for a lump sum or not.
That's why I stuck with Microtech......any rotor tuner can tune it. Plus with updates/development you need to retune......f*ck flying a tuner around the country.
Besides I have the best Honda tuner in the country tuning mine 8)
allmtr hook a brother up :)
We have 2 tuners in syd and 1 tuner in qld being launched next month, so that will solve the tuning problems. I travel interstate every 2 or 3 weeks to Sydney and always offer free tuning if car's need to be tuned, as I love working on Honda’s.
Currently we have around 10 clients in syd and 5 clients in qld who are very happy with there car's and units, mainly race track car’s and daily drivers.
Flying tuners around Aust is't that expensive anyway I had one customer who had a large race on and wanted a tune and wanted me to tune his car, he said the tickets are at the airport waiting for you... some people pay for quality simple. But 99% of people just wait for me to go interstate which is every few weeks, normally doesn’t cause a problem for anyone. But after next month that will all change, iv been very busy teaching workshops interstate the system over the last month and yeah with the release of the new tuneable DC5 ECU”S early 2004 its all going to kick off nicely.
I’m going to syd and qld again on the 1st week of December to install more units.
And I also have a very large project of a customer spending 70,000 on a turbo conversion, its going to be a WILD car !!
Regards James
Well thats good to hear, then the workshops are up and running give us a buzz and let us know.. :)
I hear ya!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLMTR
Dave Flood Chuck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Weq
Also known as dyno Dave?
Or do I have my wires crossed?
Awesome! So that must mean you're in Sydney now? I'm interested!Quote:
Originally Posted by BLKCRX
-az