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My rocker cover doesn't have a ground.... Neither do the other K, L and R series engines from the factory.
I've seen many dc2r's ground to the rocker cover, always forget to put it back on after head work doesn't bother me at all actually.
good post. gonna ask an electrician tommoro, been wondering for a while now aswell.
.. alright you made your point with proof I never thought it was necessary but as a former grease monkey if a car comes in with a ground to the rocker it's obligation to put it back on no questions asked, it's like those grounding kits, pissed me off working on a car with them cos it was extra work to take them off and the unit gets in the way most of the time.
if a car comes stock with a ground there or around there....i say leave it there.
PS leaving the ground OFF th cam cover hasnt produced any issue with any car ive ever seen (as of yet).
coool....a thread.......why didnt anyone tell me?
btw shouldnt this be in the noob forum?
b series valve cover,totally insulated from cylinder head by rubber gasket & rubber washers,OEM connection as it came from the factory below...........
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...G_0977_1_1.jpg
why would honda do this & not to the stud which is connected to the head????
K,L & R's all have individual coil packs dont they aarong? different setup to b series?
btw,we should go clean up poor lukeys thread for him claymore
i keep telling u clay,theres no apparent ill effects from removing the earthing system from a house either,everything still works,its just in worse case scenario the ill effects do become apparentQuote:
Originally Posted by claymore
Why would a wire from the rocket cover need to touch the ground/road??
doh,mod beat me to the cleanup,at least ya left me one to cleanup
huh???Quote:
Originally Posted by 95civic
who said that???
lol i hope he is being sarcastic. no one even said anything about rockets and road
Im with you claymore, Im no electronic wiz but I cant see any reason why it would be needed - insulated surface, simple as that. Isnt that basic electronics?
Because this is stronger than grounding to a stud on the head (which we regularly snap when putting the rocker cover back on).Quote:
Originally Posted by CRXer
Doesn't make a difference with regards to the ground. I have a daihatsu with a dizzy, and that doesn't have a ground on the rocker cover too.Quote:
Originally Posted by CRXer
sorry clay,didnt read the PM,till after i saw the thread,so i did feel left out:(Quote:
Originally Posted by claymore
huh???? whats join dates got to do with anything.
have u lost your glasses `again clay????
that photo clearly shows to anyone that knows the bseries valve cover,that the ground point shown,is disconnected from the block by a rubber gasket & rubber washers on the studs.
disconnect that ground strap from the cover,put your multi across the cover & block, & u wont see zero ohms,..........not even 1,2, even 5 ohms.......if u do,u really shouldnt overtighten your gasket like that,fix it or buy a new torque wrench.
clay,ive already extensively typed out my theories & i cbf doing it again,but to anyone whos interested.......in brief,its to bleed any static buildup on the cover,whether it be sourced from the leads or the timing belt/cams or both.
where have i changed the subject btw????
its your turn to prove to me that a static charge CANNOT be induced into an insulated CONDUCTIVE "surface".
Because this is stronger than grounding to a stud on the head (which we regularly snap when putting the rocker cover back on).Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
Doesn't make a difference with regards to the ground. I have a daihatsu with a dizzy, and that doesn't have a ground on the rocker cover too.[/QUOTE]
the point is ,why is the valve cover which is not electrically continuous to the block be grounded by honda from the factory.
does the daihatsu have the same setup,ie DOHC,same leads position,timing belt or chain,etc?
this is a great discussion guys....much upon the vein of "Do GROUNDING kits work?"
The answer is something along the grey - compared to a black or white definition.
That is , IF current grounds are not sufficient then a grounding kit placed in OEM locations maybe beneficial. Otherwise its overkill......right ? lol.
anyway imoff so keep this clean please:)
i've been zapped by the plastic dizzy cap of all things twice when i didn't have the factory ground connected that CRXer posted... i doubt it's a fluke/coincidence
1) first time was coz i forgot to bolt it back on.
2) second time was coz i had painted the rocker cover and there was a paint layer on the contact point... which i sanded off after getting zapped again.
I'm not saying that the valve cover is not electrically continuous. I'm just saying that some manufacturers decide to ground it, even if they already have a ground running to the block, which is electrically connected to the head through the studs, which is in turn electrically connected to the rocker cover through the studs on top of the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by CRXer
And there are other manufacturers that don't. Daihatsu is a 1.3L, with 4-cyl DOHC with VVT, 4-valve per cylinder, dizzy, timing belt.
I with you clay i dont see any reason for this being here. In my first rebuild of my motor i removed it and custom made my own grounding kit. Industrial 0 Gauge wire with gold plated connectors, I've only got two, one connected from the chassis to the gearbox and the other from the chassis to the intake side of my head on the right. I didnt notice any difference to be honest i dont even know how the grounding kits work performance wize.
I originally did it because i used to have a massive stereo in my car which caused a few grounding issues so i did this.
crikey,im late for class & no note from my mum....
ohhhh.....now i get the whole date joined/noobie noob thing..........i merely presumed u would of put this in the noob forum to teach me a lesson.........this net thing sux when u have to explain everything 2,3 times.........
claymore,i really cbf writing an article for u covering all your questions,there is prob freely available info all over the net on this shit,try googling eddy currents,static charge problems in belt driven machinery,EFI systems & associated EMI problems,electromagnetic induction,equipotential bonding,what else have i forgotten...........even blow the dust off your old textbooks u might find it in there.
like i said to u many times,im not gonna /nor do i have the facilities to reverse engineer my engine & tell u exactly why honda did it,but ive put some suggestions out there,maybe theres something else that i have overlooked.
the question remains,which seems to confuse u as to why u would make a connection to something that didnt form a circuit.............why did honda do it??????
one thing ive learnt is u generally dont question why someone designed a grounding/shielding/equipotential bonding system,unless u want to walk away from an installation leaving behind the very real chance of extreme hazards right thru to niggly little problems that can cost a fortune in time & equipment to set right again.btw claymore the term "ground" doesnt only imply a return path for conventional current flow in a circuit,like u persistently seem to think.
even the designers get it wrong sometimes,but seriously??????? ...............we are talking about honda here................we are talking about one of their pet production engines in its time...............
u really think the amount of R&D that went into the Bseries,that when they cast up that little tag off the valve cover for the ground connection...............that one of the designers didnt think..................hang on one second?????......this ground point is not continuous to the block?????????.........oh dont worry about it,we will just connect it there anyway for good looks.
as i have said 1000 times,the valve cover IS NOT continuous to the cylinder head on the Bseries engine,so why do they ground it??????
give me half hour or so,i'll prove its not continuous,its only 8 bolts,brb.............
ok,so some of u might understand now that the valve cover is not electrically continuous to the block (btw,i didnt say for all engines,im just talking about this one for now).
also some of you might understand now,that not all things are grounded just to complete a circuit & to make something work,there are lots of things involved in any electrical installation that need to be grounded/bonded/shielded/whatever in order to prevent undesirable side effects,there are lots of things that u could disconnect certain parts of the installation & everything would still work....but for how long? & how well would it work...how safe would it be?........
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...G_1506_1_1.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...G_1508_2_1.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...G_1512_3_1.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...G_1514_4_1.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...G_1517_5_1.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...G_1521_6_1.jpg
according a CSR electrician of 30 years, i dunno if iam saying this right. but it seems to be there to stop a static charging which can create alot of problems. He said other shit but i dont wanna say it incase i say it wrong
The earth strap to the rocker cover IS meant to be there and does serve a purpose. As said the rocker cover is totally insulated so it 'may' seem stoopid to put an earth on. However earths are not 'always' put there as a -ve path for a power source. They are also put on poles, structures as a "saftey measure".
For example: If a stray wire/spark plug lead has fallen off/rubbed through and somehow made electrical contact with the rocker cover, without an earth strap the cover is now live! If someperson comes in contact with the cover then they become the earth connection and will get a Zap. Has anyone been zapped by a spark plug before? its not going to kill someone, but it does hurt.
Another example is on the railway. The posts that hold up the overhead lines. They are all earthed/bonded to earth. The same senario but more serious. If the overhead lines come in contact with the pole (22kV) through physical contact or broken down insulator then the pole becomes live. Without a earth connection it would be fatal to the touch.
So yeh, if you do disconnect it, engine will run as normal, no probs what so ever. Its there only as an earth for stray currents.
^ end of thread :)
yeh...good point deano...but im still leaning towards nuisance effects on the EFI sensors,who knows,u could be rightQuote:
Originally Posted by DLO01
Why is this question even still going???
The engine obviously needs to be grounded and this is one of its grounding point as well as the gearbox so just leave it on!!! Very simple, I just dont understand why you would even not want to put it back on, If you issue is "MESSY" then you can extend the ground strap along your power steering line to another point on the body or even battery directly. F#!K the images, what is directly connected the the head that has a need for grounding??? um maybe the distributor, ok maybe im a little aggresive since some guy pissed me off lol plus i havent read the entire thread, anyways if the head is not grounded then ground it!
the rocker cover is not meant to be grounded, its a ground for the HEAD!
hahaha claymore got epically owned.
cool,shit fights & pissed off peeps everywhere....what would a net forum be without a bit o turbulence:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by B18cEG
u really should prob read & preferably understand stuff before u comment
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRXer
Sorry dude not trying to start fights or nothing, that continuity test that you done doesnt prove anything but that the rocker cover is not grounded nor can it be under normal stock state (unless you run an extra ground strap or link or wateva u get the point) all im saying is yes the ground strap is needed and no it does not ground the rocker cover, it grounds the head for all components linked to the head, so to the starter of this thread or anyone wondering about this same question just leave the strap on and if you have removed it put one on. you guys are very funny, static build up and all that BS, once again THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A GROUND STRAP FOR THE ROCKER COVER BECAUSE THE ROCKER COVER DOES NOT HAVE ANY ELECTRONIC COMPONENTRY BUT IT IS A GROUND FOR THE HEAD THROUGH THE BOLT THAT IT IS BOLTED ON, DAHH So for your so called design fault mr CRXer you now officially stand corrected as do a handfull of the other guys. please dont even bother to argue here, im right and your wrong:thumbdwn: lol
But wait i have more to add lol
99% of these ground straps that i have ever seen are on the rocker cover dome nut not on the rocker cover itself.
Got proof?
Also, you do realist that there is earth straps running from the block to earth, and sometimes even intake manifold to earth?
Now think, the head is connected directly to the block yes? And by quite a large surface area, so any charge in the head will go to the block, and out those earth points.
CRXer provide substantial knowledge about the subject, and you are going on like a little kid
no not like a little kid, yes CRXer did prove something, that the rocker cover is not grounded in any way, shape or form, but to say that this particular strap is not needed is simply incorrect, yes i do know that sometimes there is several grounding points since i did mention the gearbox ground earlier. as you know the engine is constaltly moving, shaking and vibrating so to have an extra strap on the head is not such a bad idea and is not a design fault! It is a ground strap dedicated to the head so leave it on there, simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by trism
This is so simple why is there sooooo much confusion
noooo dont stop the fights...this place just started to get entertaining for a changeQuote:
Originally Posted by B18cEG
speaking of grounded heads,your head must be completely on the ground,cos this ones flying hiiiiiiiigh over the top of it.
u clearly havent understood what u just reread,so i'll repeat the question for your convenience,
why does HONDA!!!! ground the valve cover from the factory?
as the continuity test shows,yes it is isolated from the head,yet honda grounds it......
i didnt imply an design faults(or maybe u dont understand sarcasm),ive already provided a photo of a stockbog EG9 at the start of this thread showing the connection to the valve cover,the B18C i pulled out of a stockbog teg had the very same connection point......so theres 2 examples of factory connections.....if your 99% sure of otherwise,where is your evidence?????
please submit the evidence also of where i said it wasnt needed?Quote:
Originally Posted by B18cEG
hahaha ok sarcasm on the design fault cool cool, my head originally came with the ground strap on the dome nut as are all of the ppl i know that have a b-series in there car, there is also thousands of pics all over the net where you can find the ground strap on the dome nut not on the little tag off the rocker cover although i have seen it on the rocker cover bolt tag a few times, so as im sure u can understand that by looking at over 100 b's (yes with my own eyes) where a few have the strap on the rocker cover tag, you can understand why i am stressing my point.
Just a little imput....
I'm sure with all the engineering honda has to offer they wouldnt have just jammed a ground there for nothing. I might call honda tomorrow and see what they think. This is a fairly heated thread and alot of people are bringing some great arguments to the table. Using your own knowledge to and experience to figure it out. But i think if we work as a family we could probably suss this issue out alot quicker.
Sorry im just putting some love into the air...
Round 3...fight!!!
Earth strap is on the rocker cover itself. Theres absolutly no connection to the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by B18cEG
Maybe back then Honda decided that more grounds is better, and then found that it was not a good idea and changed that with the K series. Oh and having individual coil packs doesn't change the electrical requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by CRXer
Ok, i have tried my best not to double up,
http://www.krikey.nildram.co.uk/ek9/100_3951.jpg
http://technet.ff-squad.com/how-to/sk2im/sk2im.15.jpg
http://asia.vtec.net/topics/b16av2.jpg
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...leanliness.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...o/IMG_0057.jpg
http://www.flogged.net/integra/new/engine-bay.jpg
http://image.hondatuningmagazine.com...engine_bay.jpg
http://www.crankshafted.com/upload/f...8/IMG_0745.jpg
http://my.prostreetonline.com/photos...EngineBay1.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3219/itr34006ik6.jpg
http://www.allvehicles.co.uk/9866.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2375/...cebaee.jpg?v=0
http://www.individualsole.com/wp-con.../10/dc2-17.jpg
http://members.home.nl/teamvtec/DSCF1473a.jpg
http://www.jdmdirectimport.com/image...37;2098%2B.jpg
http://www.japangeneralmotor.com/engineInfo.php?link=12
http://www.meanstreet.net/motorpics/temp_engine.jpg
http://www.team-integra.net/images/B.../enginetop.jpg
http://www.jdm-online.com/media/cata...e/testpic1.jpg
http://www.streetimports.com/uploads/b18c5-c.jpg
http://www.jdm-motors.ca/engines/20.jpg
http://neotechimports.com/images/engine_honda_b18c.jpg
http://www.jdmcarboy.com/images/gsr-swap.jpg
http://unlimitedjdm.com/cms/componen...0e205fa91a.jpg
http://www.myjdmworld.com/upload/ite...43P7110092.gif
http://unlimitedjdm.com/cms/componen...853ec369b4.jpg
http://unlimitedjdm.com/cms/componen...d00d9789c0.jpg
http://unlimitedjdm.com/cms/componen...bb48228dcb.jpg
http://www.japanmotorimport.com/EnginePics/IMG56.jpg
^^
Ok.. ok.. B18cEG we get your point that B engine has the strap on the dome nut.
Now, can you accept the point that the strap is not for head ground, but it's for the rocker cover ground ?
The mystery remains why HONDA put the strap there, although as CRXer (well done with the pix mate) with the meter has shown that the rocker cover is completely isolated from the head.
IMO I think it could be safety measure because some people get zapped from touching the cover??? just me 2 cents.
Twing, B18CEG is correct in what he is saying. If the strap is under the dome nut it is in fact earthing the head. Via going through the stud to the head. If the strap is in that spot it is acutally insulated from the Rocker cover via a rubber washer. ie theres no connection to the rocker cover.
But the 1st post topic, states:
The strap on my B18C7 is actually on the rocker cover itself. Not under a dome nut. The same goes with my B16A2 delsol. In that case its only earthing the Rocker cover. I have seen may other like that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by claymore
yep, plenty of pics ive seen show it earthed on the rocker cover, not the dome nut. but then lots have it on the dome nut.
Ahhh.. i c.. Thanks for correcting.:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by DLO01
So basically, there is inconsistency on where the strap is.. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by DLO01
ok lets settle this,
In my personal opinion from what i have seen "stock cars from honda even before there first service" the strap is under the dome nut, in this case it is correct that the strap is for the head, for the othe handfull were is in on the rocker cover itself, who knows, but honestly i have seen far far more under the dome nut than on the rocker cover itself.
Na, I wanna keep talking. Means I'll have to do some work otherwise. :p
Your goal is to have metal to metal contact to the head of motor. Anything else is a waste of time. There is a number of unused threads on the head which you can use.
Dont understand why honda would earth their rocker covers as there shouldnt be any current travelling through it at any point.
Mine used to connected directly to the Cover not the valve cover dome nut on my b16a2
I suppose, if somehow, by some freak accident/stupidity/ignorance that the cam cover and other parts of the engine got covered in water....
then a ground strap would come in pretty handy?
I've heard of ppl jetting their engines down with a hose and flooding the spark plug holes with water... so its not impossible.
Oh yes,I've done that twice!
No, the strap is on the stud that holds the rocker cover down. That stud goes into the head, so the strap is for the head ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by twing
Get off your high horse Claymore. I have given you a vaild reason why it may be done. If a bit of constructive criticism rubs your the wrong way, then its time to get over yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by claymore
i polished my oem brown grounding wire for more conductivity lol
on the b18cr series its actually on the nut of the rocker cover
but who cares run it on your motor if u want
if u dont want it then dont run it
really simple
honda put it there for a reason minute it may be
ive noticed a bigger grounding wire that leads to the gearbox on my civic. and im just putting out a q for u guys. in the honda manual it says when u jump start the car u should connect the -ve terminal to the engine rocker cover grounding wire. im not quite sure why, cause ive never seen anybody do this.
Claymore. Let me put it this way. You have asked a question. The strap is indeed there (on some). I have answered the question to my best abilty to honestly help out and lend a hand, and see no other reason why it is there. As for a source? Labels/peice of paper mean nothing to me, but 13 years in the electrical industry. 9 years railway signal engineer, design, testing, commisioning. 4 years senior designer, mining & building services (electrical). And if it helps, my dad is a mechanic a super nice guy (rubs off on me :p), and I also have a AD in civil structural engineering. But yeh, as said its all just a bit of paper in the end.
why don't we just ask/email honda?
so claymore in your professional expertise in this area
what would you recommend us simple ozhonda people do
ground or not to ground
do you think honda should of not put it in there in the 1st place ?
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by dsp26
goto go out.. but heres their R&D website.. i'm sure someone can find contact details in there:
http://world.honda.com/RandD/