KAAZ lsd versus Quaife ATB differential?

G'day,

Looking for advice on LSDs.....

I considering fitting one to my B16A2 powered EG. At the moment the two options are a KAAZ 1.5way mechanical LSD or the Quaife ATB differential. Has anyone had any experience with either of these? Which ones are best for what applications? Are there other options? Currently the car is used for sprints and hillclimbs, occasional street use, potentially a tarmac rally event such as Targa Tas could be on the cards in the future depending on $$$....

I want to make the right choice first up as it's not what I would call a cheap part!

Im using an OBX LSD and it works great, it is pretty much a copy of the quaife unit

I fitted KAAZ lsd's to both the front & rear of my STI for motorsport use & found them excellent. You should adjust the lash nice & tight prior to install & need to run it in once installed. There is the odd bit of clattering but i can highly recomend KAAZ.:thumbsup:

I am using Kaaz 1.5 way in my b18c setup in my EM1. feels great on the track and at speed around a corner. but is a bit noisy and clunky at low speeds = Driving around a carpark is :eek: lol but yes, very worth it. I have never been in a car with the quaife unit though, so can't compare.

^^^^ lol a bit

The obvious differences between the two LSD types should make your decision for you.

Do you want minimal maintenance at the expense of performance? If so then the Quaife is for you. The Quaife will not work at all once you lift one of the front wheels, and will also have no effect under decelleration.

If however you are willing to accept significantly higher maintenance and a shorter services life, in exchange for a more positive locking effect, then perhaps the Kaaz is for you. I can't comment on the relative merits of different clutch style LSDs though.

I personally have the OEM DC5R LSD (similar style of LSD to the Quaife) in my car and I wouldn't want to be without it, so I would suggest that even the Quaife will be a significant upgrade that you will be happy with.

I prefer the clutch type LSD's.

Thanks all for your input!

I think when I eventually get around to fitting one it'll be a clutch type despite the compromises.

This car of mine is slowly becoming more and more of a track car and less of the practical road car it used to be but then I guess that's what public transport is for ;)

Why dont you check out the MFactory selection.... They have both the Helical type and clutch type lsds... tTey are also very competitive in pricing compared to other brands of lsds... I am currently runnin the Mfactory helical lsd... No regrets at all what a beautiful piece of machinery it is.. works wonders especially when you come from Open diff (single wheeler)

I cant comment on lsd's in comparison though as i have never used any other brand/type for hondas..

The quaife warranty also applies to your car even if you use it at the track which other companies simply do not provide warranty for.

Kaaz is noisy as hell (people look at you like your stupid driving around with somethign that sounds broken), Quaife is silent.

Kaaz needs to be maintained (extra cost over long term), Quaife is a sealed unit (install and forget and once off cost).

Just depends what you want from your LSD.

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Originally Posted by 94vtirozguy

The quaife warranty also applies to your car even if you use it at the track which other companies simply do not provide warranty for.

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That is not true - You need to read the Quaife Terms & Conditions properly before giving misleading info.

Taken from Quaife's Terms & Conditions

"R.T. QUAIFE ENGINEERING LTD (“Quaife”) warrants each new Quaife Automatic Torque Biasing (ATB) differential both purchased and used anywhere in the World outside the United States of America (including its territories and dependencies), Canada or Mexico, against defects in manufacture, material and workmanship, when used in the vehicle application for which it was originally designed and specified, under any and all operating conditions, including racing, for as long as the original purchaser owns the differential."

So the warranty is only on defects in manufacture, material and workmanship - which the user will have to proof - it certainly does not cover damage through racing, abuse. This type of cover is pretty much standard amongst all manufacturers.

"4) which is installed or used in any vehicle or manner for which it is not specified by Quaife; or"

"5.1.1 In relation to Goods supplied for use in competition, trialing or other motorsports applications (“competition”), such use is acknowledged by every Buyer as being experimental in nature as such use may involve exceptional and unpredictable loadings. Buyer accepts that Buyer will be solely responsible for ensuring safe use of the Goods in the application intended by Buyer."

"5.1.3 If Buyer is a consumer Seller hereby excludes all liability to Buyer except in relation to death or personal injury caused or contributed to by the negligent act or omission of Seller. "

If the vehicle is used in a manner it was not specifically designed, warranty is excluded, i.e. Racing, Rally, Time trials, speed, competition...


"Limitation of Liability
Save in the event of death or personal injury caused to any person a national or resident of a member state of the European Union by any negligent act or omission of Quaife, Quaife excludes to the fullest extent permitted by law any liability to the purchaser of an ATB Differential or any person claiming through that purchaser and Quaife accepts no obligation to bear any labour costs or other costs of return, removal and/or installation and will not be liable for any special, incidental, or consequential damages, including loss of use of any vehicle. Each Purchaser acknowledges that motor racing is a dangerous sport and that he or she is responsible for taking and will take all necessary safety measures to minimise the risk of injury loss or damage arising from the use to which an ATB Differential is subjected "

Read the limitations - Motorsports is excluded.


MFactory also provides a limited warranty for all products to be free of defects in materials and workmanship upon receipt of product and initial installation.

i guess there is a difference between having a warranty, and having a product that just wont break...

i have a quaife, when it was getting installed, the mechanic said i was going to hate it. then he drove it and couldnt hear it, then i drove it and didnt even notice there was a change in the diff during normal driving. but under power it now spins 2 wheels predictibly, so he was certainly surprised compared to other noisy mechanical diffs he had used.

when i was buying my diff, the shop i was getting it off suggested the wave trac diff, which is the same as a quaife but has wave shaped washers that preload the diff, which as someone earlier suggested was the quaifes down fall, putting power to the other wheel when one is in the air. apparantly the wave trac cures that. but i wanted to go for something tried and true, and proven, so i went for the quaife, even though they were the same price.

i also like the idea of it not wearing out, and being known as the best. so im not worried in the slightest of it breaking.

that being said i have no experience of any other type of diff on the market.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scholzey

i guess there is a difference between having a warranty, and having a product that just wont break....

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Thats a tall claim - if that were the case, the Quaife wouldn't see the need to even put in exclusions, but they have. But having said that, I agree Quaife makes great LSDs - obviously their reputation preceeds them. But I am also confident to say that MFactory's LSD are on par with Quaife at a competitive price. I have not heard of any MFactory LSDs breaking when installed and maintained correctly - and all our LSDs are driven hard and used in Racing, Rallying and Drag.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scholzey

i have a quaife, when it was getting installed, the mechanic said i was going to hate it. then he drove it and couldnt hear it, then i drove it and didnt even notice there was a change in the diff during normal driving. but under power it now spins 2 wheels predictibly, so he was certainly surprised compared to other noisy mechanical diffs he had used..

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I'm typing this from memory at work :-p From your description above, it appears that you may not know the difference between the types of LSDs and why some are noisy and some not.

So, to understand the noise, you need to understand how the various LSDs work. There are typically 2 types of Mechanical LSDs.
A Torsen/Helical (also called ATB) or Clutch (Also called Metal Plate). Both work very differently and are designed to meet different purposes.

Torsen/Helical - MFactory Helical / Quaife
Clutch/ Metal - MFactory Metal / ATS

Torsen/Helical - These rely on a series of worm gears within the unit that lock or biase torque on acceleration (sensing torque) giving drive to both wheels. As these are just gears, they are quiet and relatively maintenance free (just the normal gearbox oil change required). They also don't need special oils and perform very well under majority of street driving conditions.

The disadvantage of these is that, in the event one wheel looses traction (i.e. especially with track driving where you ride kerbs and take short cuts through corners or could be as simple as one wheel loosing traction on a pool of water), the diff simply becomes an open diff with the power being transmitted to the wheel that has lost traction - No limited slip action. However, given that one typically does not drive 10/10s on the street, it is less of a concern.

So, summary:
1) Uses gears, so quiet and maintenance free
2) Fantastic for novice drivers and street use
3) Ok on track but will be out performed by the Metal LSDs


Clutch/Metal LSDs - These uses a series of clutches within the assembly to control slip. If slip is detected, the clutch within the unit will slip (hence the knocking noise) and enable the non slipping wheel to continue driving (instead of all power going into the slipping wheel). This mechanism will still allow the LSD to work when one wheel has lost grip althogether, unlike the helical, but the disadvantage is 1) Noise (from the slipping) 2) Wear (obviously - uses clutches) 3) Needs special oils.

As such, these tend to be used by more serious cars and drivers where performance outweighs any of the inconveniences.

So, Summary:
1) Clutch, Noisy
2) Requires maintenance - wear rate dependent on usage
3) Fantastic for hard core drivers where every little bit counts!

The Clutch/Metal LSD can further be divided in to 1 way, 1.5 Way and 2 Way. The best for a FWD is a 1.0, where being more understeer prone, no lock on decel allows better controllability of the car. 1.0 way is also good for someone who has never used a metal lsd before because the bit can be overwhelming.

In summary, I think all FWDs need an LSD - if you have never driven a car with an LSD, you should try - it makes the car heaps safer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e240

Thats a tall claim - if that were the case, the Quaife wouldn't see the need to even put in exclusions, but they have. But having said that, I agree Quaife makes great LSDs - obviously their reputation preceeds them. But I am also confident to say that MFactory's LSD are on par with Quaife at a competitive price. I have not heard of any MFactory LSDs breaking when installed and maintained correctly - and all our LSDs are driven hard and used in Racing, Rallying and Drag.



I'm typing this from memory at work :-p From your description above, it appears that you may not know the difference between the types of LSDs and why some are noisy and some not.

So, to understand the noise, you need to understand how the various LSDs work. There are typically 2 types of Mechanical LSDs.
A Torsen/Helical (also called ATB) or Clutch (Also called Metal Plate). Both work very differently and are designed to meet different purposes.

Torsen/Helical - MFactory Helical / Quaife
Clutch/ Metal - MFactory Metal / ATS

Torsen/Helical - These rely on a series of worm gears within the unit that lock or biase torque on acceleration (sensing torque) giving drive to both wheels. As these are just gears, they are quiet and relatively maintenance free (just the normal gearbox oil change required). They also don't need special oils and perform very well under majority of street driving conditions.

The disadvantage of these is that, in the event one wheel looses traction (i.e. especially with track driving where you ride kerbs and take short cuts through corners or could be as simple as one wheel loosing traction on a pool of water), the diff simply becomes an open diff with the power being transmitted to the wheel that has lost traction - No limited slip action. However, given that one typically does not drive 10/10s on the street, it is less of a concern.

So, summary:
1) Uses gears, so quiet and maintenance free
2) Fantastic for novice drivers and street use
3) Ok on track but will be out performed by the Metal LSDs


Clutch/Metal LSDs - These uses a series of clutches within the assembly to control slip. If slip is detected, the clutch within the unit will slip (hence the knocking noise) and enable the non slipping wheel to continue driving (instead of all power going into the slipping wheel). This mechanism will still allow the LSD to work when one wheel has lost grip althogether, unlike the helical, but the disadvantage is 1) Noise (from the slipping) 2) Wear (obviously - uses clutches) 3) Needs special oils.

As such, these tend to be used by more serious cars and drivers where performance outweighs any of the inconveniences.

So, Summary:
1) Clutch, Noisy
2) Requires maintenance - wear rate dependent on usage
3) Fantastic for hard core drivers where every little bit counts!

The Clutch/Metal LSD can further be divided in to 1 way, 1.5 Way and 2 Way. The best for a FWD is a 1.0, where being more understeer prone, no lock on decel allows better controllability of the car. 1.0 way is also good for someone who has never used a metal lsd before because the bit can be overwhelming.

In summary, I think all FWDs need an LSD - if you have never driven a car with an LSD, you should try - it makes the car heaps safer.

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the stock LSD on the dc2r is also a torsen/helical unit?

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Originally Posted by Bludger

the stock LSD on the dc2r is also a torsen/helical unit?

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ek9/dc2r is helical

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Originally Posted by mocchi

ek9/dc2r is helical

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That is , mechanical / geared and requires no special extra fluid/s.

So, what would be the advantage (if any) if the dc2r/ek9 had a Quaife LSD installed??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bludger

So, what would be the advantage (if any) if the dc2r/ek9 had a Quaife LSD installed??

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well for one , different torque application to the standard honda torsen unit.

The EK9/DC2R unit is a 1 way LSD that only locks on acceleration.

You can get any type from Quaife ( and others) 1 , 1.5 and 2 way for example

try a cusco lsd
used for years never had a problem

Cusco is helical or clutch?

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Originally Posted by Bludger

Cusco is helical or clutch?

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I think it's a clutch type.... can someone confirm?

Cusco = Clutch pack.

They usually have two versions, one that is a bit more friendly in its bite in the initial lock up, and then the other version that locks quite agressively straight away.

I had the agressive cone plate one in my 86.... was fun and clunky... Cusco "MZ" I think it was.

I have a Kaaz 1.5 way LSD in my competition Civic EG6. These are used extensively in rally developed Civics here and overseas. .Have a look at the differential specs for EG6 rally cars advertised for sale in the UK ,Ireland etc and you will see what I mean. They are designed without any compromise for comfort and are intended solely for competition .(to give maximum traction in the widest range of circumstances.) The down sides should not worry you if you are a serious competitor. These include serious kick back and noisy chatter at low speeds and the need for some ongoing maintenance. (I have just purchased a spare clutch pack for a cost of about $395 although at the moment there is no need to fit it). If you want to be competitive you also have to adopt a certain driving style (on gravel at least) or you will quickly have a big accident. I have to left foot brake most of the time to kick the back out and make the car turn in otherwise it will understeer straight on into the scenery. Although I have not used a 2 way Kaaz diff I understand understeer is even more of an issue.
You should note that literature supplied with the diff by Kaaz states that they are not intended for use on public roads. I suspect in many cases they might make your car technically unroadworthy .If you have insurance it might also be negatively impacted.
Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bennjamin

well for one , different torque application to the standard honda torsen unit.

The EK9/DC2R unit is a 1 way LSD that only locks on acceleration.

You can get any type from Quaife ( and others) 1 , 1.5 and 2 way for example

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There is no difference in "torque application" between an oem ITR Torsen Differential, and the Quaife ATB Differential. Both have the same bias ratio to transfer torque. The only difference between the two is in the manufacturing of the units i.e The OEM will start to see it's limit around 400whp, then go boom

The ITR unit is not a 1 way LSD. "way" is solely reserved for Plate Type LSD's that lock; an ITR unit is not a Plate Type and does not lock.

Infact, a gear type differential is not even a true LSD (Limited Slip Differential), they are Torsens' (Torque Sensing Differentials). The word LSD (in relation to Torsens') is used purely for marketing.