Printable View
Hey guys
Just wondering what the pros and cons are for an auto D16Y (Civic VTi) engine if:
1. It is turbo
2. It is supercharged
I know I know...auto! BUT I think this might be the best option for me as my requirements from a car is "I want power NOW" type of thing. Any info about what needs to be strengthened etc would be greatly appreciated also.
BB
This is a great site for Integra owners but I guess you can pretty much use the same info for all Hondas.
Supercharger = http://www.team-integra.net/sections...p?ArticleID=58
Turbo = http://www.team-integra.net/sections...?ArticleID=325
This is where I get all my info from the States for my car.
Know you have to work out what your budget is and who will do it for you. I would go for a turbo application as it is easier to get parts and custom parts for.[/url]
Hmm seems like I need to become a member to view the URL. I'll do that later. Thanks for the links. I'm glad no one has flamed me for considering the "dark side" aka FI LOL :)
No ones gonna flame you in here. This is the FI forum!
:P
Turbo is fun but i'm not sure how your gearbox is gonna hold the power, even for low boost applications. Honda's auto boxes aren't known to be strong when it comes to turbo applications.
Yeh you can ask Sam about it. He has a turbo in his Accord. His stock auto gearbox is what he claims to let him down. He dyno'd ~ 100kw ATW from ~70kw ATW stock.
Bumble B, I either setup with a bit of thought put into it will give you reponse and power increase.
Turbo, perhaps choose a nice small turbo. Maybe IHI TD04 from a WRX?
You might need auto transmission cooler.
Turbo will give you the most power for the least money.
I think it's Jackson Racing that make a drop in supercharger for the B series, not sure if it would work on your engine though. Anyway the supercharger they make will cost more and give you less power than the tubo but the power delivery will be much more linear. If you are technically knowledgeable you should be able to install the thing in about a day by yourself. I have some videos somewhere of it if you are interested.
Also make sure you upgrade your breaks and suspension to suit the extra power you will have.
-2ds
QUOTE From Team-integra.net on Supercharging:
"The intent of this article is to help inform future owners and current owners of what logical steps to take in modifying a supercharged engine. I have used my own experience in developing this article and have complied groups of performance products to help one properly upgrade. I recommend that you read the articles on engine dynamics and exhaust flow, as these explain how many of the items I mention work. With that being said, enjoy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Out of the Box: The easiest way to create power is to pressurize the intake, better known as forced induction.
One of the easiest ways to force feed an engine is to use of a supercharger. Jackson Racing (JR), a known name in the Honda and Mazda market, has put together a well-engineered supercharger kit that is 50 state smog legal, carrying a CARB certification. JR use a specially modified supercharger made by Eaton, to accomplish a gain of 40% power.
Out of the box, the supercharger kit (6 PIS) includes just about everything you need:
• New vacuum hoses, fuel pressure regulator (FPR)
• JR electronics
• M-45 or M-62 Eaton supercharger depending on application
• Intake manifold
• Alternator relocation bracket
• Double alternator pulley
• Supercharger belt and tensioner
• Along with throttle body and intake manifold gaskets.
A new fuel filter is required, but not included.
General hand tools and a good knowledge mechanical knowledge are needed to be successful.
Average install time for a professional is about 8~10 hours for a B18B engine and about 12~14 hours for a B18C engine. The kit is marketed as a "bolt-on" and a successful install can be accomplished over a weekend's time. Instructions are through and are detailed enough for the amateur mechanic, but expect a more realistic time of 20 to 28 hours if this is your first attempt at modifying your engine. Having a Helms Manuel is highly suggested, for any engine project.
One of the most general questions asked is "what else do I need." In the most simple terms, nothing additional is needed. It's very possible to operate on a stock kit with only dyno tuning and moderate timing setting. Most gear heads do seek further performance and reliability gains, so the following will help guide you in your decision.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Basic Setup: Even though the Jackson Racing Supercharger can operate with a high level of reliability, there are some aftermarket items not included in the kit that not only make the engine more reliable, but also support future power upgrades. Besides, who wants to be stock? The following items are suggested for safety and reliability.
One heat range colder plug (NGK BCPR7ES)
High-flow fuel pump (Walbro GS-342 or better)
Cartech FMU (20005i or 2025 models)
JR BTC or MSD 6BTM
Boost and mechanical fuel pressure gauges
Dyno tuning
Products, such as the Cartech, BTC, and fuel pump, were chosen to compliment the supercharger and add even more reliability. The Cartech FMU is far superior to the JR FPR (fuel pressure regulator) in many ways. The Cartech FMU is a rise rate fuel pressure regulator; similar to the one JR gives you with their kits. But that's where the similarity ends.
The Cartech 20005i or 2025 (the one you need for S/C engine) allows you to change the ramping, ratios, and allows one to tune larger injectors; these are all things that JR unit can't do.
Ramping: The JR unit does not increase fuel pressure until positive manifold pressure is reached; this is the area where tip-in detonation is common. Also, a "bog" can be felt when the JR unit makes a sudden change in fuel pressure, during this transition. The Cartech has a bleeder valve that can be adjusted to start raising fuel pressure as low as 10" mercury; this makes for a smooth transition to boost and lessens tip-in.
Ratios: The JR unit is set to a 5:1 ratio, meaning for every 1 LB of manifold pressure, fuel pressure will be raised 5LB. So on a stock (6LB) blower, the max fuel pressure should be (6x5=30 + 52(stock GS-R fuel pressure)= 82LB). But many of us see +100LB. why? The reason is the JR FPR makes adjustments based on manifold pressure, which can be higher than 6LB, due to restrictive a header/exhaust slowing the flow and causing the air to "clog up." So instead of the FPR seeing 6LB, it sees 8LB and bumps up fuel pressure an additional 10LB; too rich and robs power. The Cartech's ratios are adjustable and can be set as low as 1:1. On a dyno, several people note a 3.8~4.2:1 as making "good power;" these numbers will only mean something to your set-up and are not transferable to another's setup.
Tuning with bigger injectors: The JR FPR just can't do it. When used in conjunction with an AEM FPR/B&M FPR, the Cartech can dial in those fat injectors for a nice idle.
The fuel pressure gauges will allow the tuner to dial in fuel pressure. The JR BTC will allow for detonation control and give back what would be lost timing and power, for the low end. The fuel pump is self explanatory, as the stock pump just can't move the volume need ed. Changing to a copper plug, of one heat range colder (NGK BCPR7ES-11 stock #1095 for B-series engines) will also aid in detonation control and are cheaper on the wallet to replace. One of the most important aspects is dyno tuning; it is near impossible to extract power by "seat of the pants" tuning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bolt-on Power: Adding correct bolt-ons to extract more power.
Everything included in the "General Setup"
Short style intake
Header
Hi-flow cat
Exhaust
Adjustable cam sprockets
Dyno tuning
This is the area where you can extract another 10~25 WHP, on top of your "General setup." The items listed are not name brand specific, due to the diversity of the products available. A short style intake produces the best power; these can be custom made with 3" exhaust pipe, modified AEM or Ice Man CAI systems, or purchased like the Comptech Ice Box. A high volume filter is also suggested, like K&N.
Two know power makers are the Hy Tech SC 4-1 with 3" collector or the Kamikaze 4-1. Both these headers have short primaries, which superchargers like. Even thought many Kamikaze users note that fitment is poor, the performance is a good bang for the buck. A trip to a muffler shop should resolve the fitment issues. The DC 4-2-1 will work, but will choke off power that could be released with the two mentioned. Expect to spend about $1300 US for the custom made Hy Tech and about $250 US for the Kamikaze.
A high flow cat will also open up "choked" power. Car Sound Cat is a very affordable choice. While I don't know who you'll buy your weld-in or bolt-in cat from, make sure you know which cat you are getting, what comes with the cat (gasket/doughnut), is it the proper length, do the bolt holes line up on the flanges and on OBD II cats where does the 2nd O2 sensor mount?
The choice for exhaust is debatable. One mainly wants a 2.5"~3" diameter piping. APEX'i N1, Thermal R&D, or even a custom Flowmaster (eck!) design would work. Hytech also makes an affordable system, which isn't as noisy as the mentioned.
Adjustable cam sprockets are area to tune cam timing and dial out overlap. Naturally aspirated engines, like Hondas, rely on valve overlap to fill the cylinders. At high rpms, there isn't much time between cycles, so the valves aren't open for very long. There isn't much time to get all that air into the cylinders. So cam designers keep the intake AND exhaust valves open at the same time. What they do is design the cam profiles so that the exhaust valves are still open when the intake valves open. Most of the burnt mixture from the previous cycle has traveled out the exhaust valve and is on its way out the cylinder head by this time. Having both valves open allows the intake gasses to be "pulled" into the cylinder due to the low-pressure area that the high velocity gasses flowing out the exhaust path are creating behind them. This works well until you pressurize the intake. When you do, instead of having the exhaust gasses "pull" the intake gasses in, because the intake side has much higher pressure than the exhaust side, the intake gasses just shoot on by out the exhaust valve when both intake and exhaust valves are open during overlap. The same thing that happens in an NA engine, but TOO MUCH so you actually lose unburnt air/fuel mixture out the tail pipe. And if it doesn't combust you lose power and your emissions suffer. When you've got supercharged boost you don't want or need as much overlap. All adjustable cam gears perform the same function, but have different options that set them apart. Brands differ by points of connection (more the better), lightweight material (less rotational mass = less parasitic drag), and etched degree markings (not the screen print crap) are all found on a "good" set of adjustable cam gears. With all these items in place, it's best to dyno tune the cam gears in place as the final modification. All the previous modifications affect the flow dynamics and tuning the cam gears lastly extracts the best possible gains.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boost Upgrade: more air = more power.
Items mentioned in "Bolt-on Setup"
Smaller pulley or ENDYN Stepper pulley
RC 310cc injectors
AEM FPR
Dyno tuning
Stock boost for the GSR is 6LB and 5.5LB for the "R." Eaton rates the blowers to produce power, until 10LB. Past 10LB, heat become excessive, detonation becomes prevalent, and power starts to fall off.
There are three ways to raise boost levels. Smaller blower nose pulleys, ENDYN stepper, and JR crank pulley.
The pulleys are not rated by boost levels, but rather diameters. Sock GSR pulley is 4" diameter. The 3.8" pulley produce about 8LB and the 3.6" produce close to 10LB. It's a good idea to keep these numbers in mind, to know if you receive the correct item. These pulleys can be purchased at JR and ENDYN. This pulley will bolt onto the blower's nose and replace the current pulley. To swap the pulley, the blower has to be removed and this is time consuming.
The JR crank pulley is similar to the CRV pulley modification, but cheaper. This pulley is slightly larger, causing the belt that drives both the alternator and blower to turn faster. JR does balance the pulley, but it lacks a harmonic balancer. This, much like the ENDYN stepper pulley, reduces belt slippage. The maximum duty cycle for injectors is 80%. Past 80%, the injectors tend to stick open or closed and no longer do their job. A larger set will allow the engine to run lower fuel pressure and have the ability to add more fuel. RC 310cc work very well. Be careful, the baseline fuel pressure will have to be lowered or you will foul plugs like no tomorrow.
To lower the baseline pressure, the AEM FPR does the trick. This unit is preferred because it has variable diameter fuel return fittings and is a direct replacement to the OE unit. Units like the B&M demand for the tuner to modify the OE regulator, which is time consuming, and in some cases difficult.
Once again, for best results... DYNO TUNE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frequently Ask Questions: It is possible to go into a great discussion about these simple looking questions. Keep in mind, the answers given are the most direct
What should I set my timing to?
The instructions suggest one to set the timing to 8~12 advance. With each engine being different and consuming different grades of fuel, there isn't a magic setting to make the most power without detonation. A conservative setting of 10 degrees advance is generally a safety area of timing tuning.
I don't want to change exhaust or purchase the Hytech or Kamikaze, what should I do?
In the most simplest answer, learn to live with knowing you're not going to be able to make as much power as possible with your system. Life is sometimes cruel like that.
I want to raise the boost past 10 PSI, what will this do?
Turbochargers and superchargers are both boost limited. The main difference is superchargers achieve their design loss much sooner. Eaton, the maker of the JR super charger, defines too much boost as being more than 10 PSI. After 10 PSI, thermal loss is thru the roof and the supercharger can damage itself.
What's this Endyn upgrade I've read about?
Endyn attempted to market itself as "upgrading" the supercharger so that it could handle more than 10 PSI, but all known "upgraded" units have shown worse results than before. Endyn markets the upgrade as changing the geometry of the supercharger's scrolls, mild porting, and removing the "S" crook in the intake. In reality, Endyn removes the epoxy scroll coating, which increases blower temps, grinds the scrolls out of tolerance and basically ruins the blower. All this for a price of ~$2,000 US.
Do I need to lower my compression, so I can boost more?
No. The price of lowering static compression is increasing maximum boost to overcome the static compression loss. Lower compression does allow more freeway for tuning mistakes, but that's where the train stops. If one did lower compression with a supercharger, the boost would need to be upgraded beyond the supercharger's limit, just so the motor would make as much power as before.
Will a V-AFC help my fuel tuning?
No. These units modify the MAP signal, which is near limit in vacuum, as the MAP is placed before the supercharger. The MAP just reads A LOT of air going into the engine and the ECM doesn't have the fuel maps to adjust such in a precise manner. The V-AFC also is a RPM and load adjusting unit; it doesn't take into account for boost in any spectrum of the tuning. Many people love to band-aid their engine with these overpriced units, but it's their money.
I want to use nitrous oxide (N20) with the supercharger. Is it possible?
Nitrous oxide offers great possibilities, but it must be done so in a logical manner. A wet injection method is a must, as the fuel system can not properly support the added fuel pressure on the system. Injecting behind the supercharger is stressed, as the temperature at which nitrous oxide is injected has been known to cause the scroll's coating to crack and be ingested by the motor. This simply requires have the intake manifold tapped. An ignition upgrade is also recommended.
Do I need a Missing Link check valve, so the ECM doesn't "see" boost?
No. The MAP's location naturally allows for the unit to not read boost, as boost in created in the intake manifold.
What cam should I choose to run with a supercharger?
High duration camshafts create power by increasing overlap. As mentioned before, overlap is FI's worst nightmare. That's not to say that all camshafts are worthless; Crower makes some for specific FI cars (Supra TT, 300ZX TT, and DSM turbos) and they work quite well. One should consult the makers and tuners for specific applications or custom setups At one time, there was a phase for of Type R owners changing to the GSR exhaust cam, in attempts to dramatically change the overlap; they didn't note any real gains, so I would consider the swap a wash. Just avoid JUN stage 3, Toda Spec B, ect. Currently, I would advise sticking with stock cams.
Besides supercharger related items, what are other upgrades that will make my car faster?
Limited slip, stronger clutch, and motor mounts with drastically change the way your car will accelerate out of the turn and out of the hole. Upgrading a car shouldn't only focus on the engine, as it takes well matched parts for the engine and transmission to work together.
I've got an auto transmission. How well will the transmission hold up?
I've had no experience with automatic transmissions. What little experience I have had with them isn't pretty. The torque converter, for starters, isn't properly matched with the newly generated torque. Some users report that the transmission will not correctly shift. As the cost of a Level Ten torque converter is close to that of a 5-speed swap, I would recommend changing to the manual transmission and kiss all of the automatic transmission woes good-bye. There seems to be a huge group of automatic transmission owners who don't want to let go of their non-performance geared transmissions; like I've said before, it's not my money.
I've got a B18B non-VTEC and want a supercharger. How well will I perform against a stock GS-R/Type R?
The non-VTEC guys have it rough. For starters, they get a smaller blower. Second, their maximum RPM is limited. These blown, non-VTEC motors usually achieve a maximum of about 160~170 WHP @ 8 PSI. Considering the average Type R, in stock trim, can pull these kinds on numbers, it's not a black and white race. You will be bolting on about 40 WHP, so this isn't nothing to turn your nose to; it's still a great deal of power for a "bolt-on" product.
So the non-VTEC motors get a smaller blower. Can I upgrade to the larger blower used on the GS-R/Type R?
You can, but you're not unlocking the power difference. The VTEC head naturally flows more CFM, than the non-VTEC. Adding more CFM than your engine can breath will only increase your intake air temps, as the engine will not be able to process the additional air.
I bought a 6 PSI supercharger kit, but my boost gauge is telling me I'm boosting 8 PSI. Is something wrong?
Keep in mind, the diameter of the pulley(s) determine how fast the blower spins. Superchargers do not suffer from "boost creep," like turbochargers. With that being said, it's impossible for the blower to move more CFM without being driven faster. The reason some users state that they are "indicating" more boost is due to how inefficient their engine processes the extra air. Having a restrictive exhaust system will hinder how well each cylinder is expelled and filled. This restriction will cause for more air, in the intake manifold, to reside in the intake manifold and cause the boost gauge to indicate a high concentration of air. On engines with highly efficient exhaust systems, it's normal to indicate less boost pressure than the rating of the pulley.
I have a '95 GS-R with 120,000 miles on the engine and transmission. I have done little or no maintenance to the car, for as long as I've owned the car, and the previous owner did God knows what to it. How well will my engine hold up to supercharging.
If you have a car with questionable maintenance, it's a good idea to bring the car up to spec, before adding more stress to the engine. While I do not know your specific engine history, it's best just to perform all the maintenance requirements, which are listed in the owner's manual. Also note, miles to not indicate motor condition as much as people believe. A compression check will yield individual cylinder compression and you should cross check those numbers with a Helms for maximum variance and nominal pressure.
I have just enough money to buy the supercharger kit. I never intend to ever spend more money on my car, dyno tune, and I'm not mechanically inclined, so I'm never going to turn my own wrench. I've heard that the JR supercharger is maintenance free, so this sounds perfect for me, right?
No. If you never intend on doing any work yourself or allocating the funds to have the work performed for you or intend on properly tune the engine, I suggest you stay as close as stock as possible. Any from of FI has additional maintenance that needs to be performed. Having extra funds sent aside for a stronger clutch is also suggested.
I read this (http://crx.honda-perf.org/horror/jrsc.html) and it seems like this guy really got screwed. How common is this experience?
Marc's experience is unique in several aspects. For one, I've only personally herd two cases of caster bean oil, the oil used to lubricate the supercharger, leaking from the unit. This isn't a high occurrence item, but is unfortunate. Second, Marc experienced poor customer service, which can put a nasty taste in anyone's mouth. Finally, I would never suggest any modifications for a D-series Honda engine, as these have to be the worst starting block for a performance intent. Is it really amazing that a FI D-series engine couldn't hold its own against a stock DOHC VTEC motor? Not really. This is the reason I've always suggested a motor swap as being a better choice for those D-block owners, as they each have about the same cost. Marc wrote that essay with intent of cutting into the sales of the JR market, due to his jaded experience.
End quote.
Quote from team-integra.net on FAQ on turbos:
"What kits are availble for my car?
Greddy
Rev-Hard
Precision Turbo <-Best Dam Turbo as of date !!
Drag III
F-MAXX
How much do these kits cost ?
$2400-$5000
What comes standard in these kits?
.4-1 Cast Iron manifold
·Deltagate External Wastegate
·T4Garrett T3/T4 T04B or TO4E Turbocharger
(Greddy offers Mitsubishi TD05H-18G Turbo)
·Blow-off valve
·Vortech Fuel Management Unit
·2 ¼ to 2 ½ Piping
·Intercooler (some kits don’t offer FMIC)
·MAP sensor bypass valves
·High pressure Inline fuel pump
·Silicon hoses and clamps
·Steel braided oil feed lines
·Oil return line
·2 1/2 inch down pipe
·Vacuum tee's
·Vacuum line's
Optional upgrades
Tial 35 mm Wastegate
Apex-i V-AFC Piggyback Fuel Computer with Integrated VTEC Controller
Stand Alone Engine Management System such as MoTeC , AEM , Hondata
Spend the money, chunk the FMU and go stand alone ! AT LEAST HONDATA S200 !!
Street/Race Clutch
2.5 to 3 inch Exhaust
High Flow Cat or Test Pipe
MSD Ignition
Bigger Fuel Injectors
Bigger Fuel Filter
Bigger Intercooler
Boost Gauge
Air-Fuel Gauge
EGT Gauge (Greddy Gauges at least! Autometer gauges FAIL often !)
Electronic Boost Controller
Turbo Timer
Quaife LSD (Limited Slip Differential)
Pistons & Rods
Valves & Springs
ARP Head Studs
Thicker Headgasket
Type-R oil pump if VTEC or New oil pump if NON-VTEC
That's right your going to drop some cash ! Hey, you wanted to turbo your car right ? This is not like taking your girl to McDonalds after you have been dating her for awhile and pinching pennies ! This is YOUR CAR ! Spend the cash and do it right ! Just like your girl will do ya if ya TREAT her right...No more Mickey D's... And in the end you will be a happy man !
How much boost can my car run safely?
LS,RS,GS- Stock Internals 5-7PSI.
GSR-Stock Internals 6-8PSI.
Once again...Stand Alone FMS and these numbers go WAY UP !
Remember boost is not horsepower. Boost is just a measurement of how hard the turbo is working to force air into the engine. When an engine cannot flow any more air into it, the boost must be increased to force it in. Maximum boost is determined by the tuning as well as by the engine's internal components. It is the responsibility of the car owner and tuner to take steps that will ensure that the increased boost will not harm the engine. TUNE TUNE TUNE !!!
Intercoolers
Much like a radiator for the incoming air charge, the intercooler cools the intake air charge to temperatures closer to ambient, condensing it and allowing you to fit more into each combustion stroke. This also helps in reducing combustion temperatures (bad) and helping prevent against detonation (also bad). Stock units from the junkyard can usually be had for between $25-$75. New units can range from $400-$2,000. The intercooler upgrade kits that are designed to mount in the factory intercooler location are enhanced in overall size, flow capacity and cooling efficiency well over the capability of the stock units.
Air-Liquid Intercoolers
There are diverse opinions about the advantage of air/liquid intercoolers versus air/air intercoolers in drag racing applications. Some say there is no advantage over air/air and they also say if there is an advantage it is offset by the added weight.
The real facts are that other than a small additional weight factor, a proper application of an air/liquid intercooler will increase power much more than enough to offset any additional weight and will always yield superior performance over an air/air unit. And, sometimes the additional weight is needed for ballast and this disadvantage is erased.
To understand why air/liquid intercoolers are superior for drag racing, consider that the cooling medium in an air/air intercooler is the ambient temperature of the outside air at any given time. If we have an engine running 30PSI boost pressure, depending on compressor efficiency, the discharge temperature will be approximately 400° , with an ambient temperature of 90° F.
Assume that you have an air/air intercooler that can give 90% effectiveness at over 100mph and less at lower vehicle speeds. 90% at the above condition will give a temperature out of the intercooler of approximately 120° F., and higher temperature out at lower speeds due to lower cooling and velocity across the surface of the core. Additionally, you are leaving the line with a hot intercooler caused by heating during burn out.
Now, consider a drag car using an air/liquid intercooler circulating ice water. The pump is turned on before the burn out and when you leave the line the charge temperature will remain more stable throughout the run and charge temperature can actually be much lower than ambient temperature, depending on the size of the intercooler. A properly sized air/liquid intercooler could easily give a charge temperature of 60° (on a 90° day!), which would be 60° lower than the air/air unit. This reduction in charge temperature not only gives a significant increase in power and torque, but also allows the use of more aggressive ignition timing for even greater increases in power.
FOR DRAG RACING: Ice/liquid reservoir size depends on engine size and horsepower, however a rough estimate is shown below:
Reservoir capacity
1.5 to 3.0 litres 3 lbs ice plus 2 gallons liquid (600 cu in)
3.1 to 4.5 litres 6 lbs ice plus 2 gallons liquid (800 cu in)
4.6 litres up 12 lbs ice plus 3 gallons liquid (1200 cu in)
Water Injection Systems
This system reduces air charge temperature on turbocharged engines, with or without intercoolers, and increases air density resulting in additional horsepower and torque. On engines equipped with detonation sensor controlled ignition systems, it will maintain maximum spark advance even on low octane fuels.
Now pertaining to OUR Street Ran Cars...Here is what legendary Tuner and World Record holder of 18 Land Speed Records, Bob Norwood says about Liquid to Air Intercoolers :
"Why the hell would ANYONE who is running under 20psi or 500hp put that on his car ? It's NOT needed and is total overkill !"
Bob Norwood:
Norwood Autocraft,Inc. <-He is not quite all there if you ask me...But NO denying the mans skill an 411 ! PROVEN !
The T04E-Turbo What is it?
It is larger in external dimension and has a higher efficiency at greater pressure ratios than the T04B. Several compressor wheels are available in the family, Including the 60-1. There are two different turbine wheels used, Stage 2 & 3. This family of turbos can fitted with either the T3 or T4, Turbine housing. The T3 turbine housing has an integral wastegate port. Compressor inlet is either 3" or 2.75" and the outlet is 2". It is available with a water cooled or non water cooled bearing housing. Turbine housing A/R ratios are .48, .63, and .82. Larger A/R ratios are available for the T4 turbine housing.
The T04E/T3 Hybrid-Turbo is typically used for high flow drag race applications where little time is spent in the 2000-4500 Rpm range 94. (4cyl). It can be configured to flow over 850 CFM and support over 580 HRP. It works best at boost levels above 14psi.
The TO4E/T3 Hybrid-Turbo for any application up to 900-CFM/550+HRP. These units are built to match individual customer needs and applications. HD steel thrust bearing standard, Full circle thrust bearing can be used.
Common Causes Of Turbo Failure
·Hot shut down. That is, turning the engine off prematurely without allowing sufficient time for the turbo to cool.
·Infrequent oil, oil filter, and air filter changes.
·Foreign matter and / or obstructions in the turbocharger air or oil system.
·Improper engine maintenance. Operating engine when out of tune or in need of adjustment or maintenance.
·Related engine part or engine failure. For example, a cracked head, broken or worn piston rings, blown head gasket, clogged radiator, and impact damage due to accident.
What is the difference between TO4E turbos and TO4Bs?
They are related. The "E" and "B" signify different families of compressor wheels. Each family was optimized for certain applications. One family is not better than the other. In some circumstances, the "E" may perform better than the "B." In other situations, vice versa. The key is to choose which wheel works best for your vehicle's needs.
What is the difference between an "on-center" turbine housing and a "tangential" turbine housing?
The "tangential" turbine housing differs both in form and function. The housing sits off to one side, similar to that of a snail shell. The other difference is that to connect an exhaust down-pipe, a V-Band flange-and-clamp assembly must be used. This setup sometimes proves to be more convenient for race applications. The "tang" housings are 4 to 5 percent more efficient in flow. Neither the "on-center" nor "tangential" perform better than the other. The decision to use one over the other should depend completely upon the installation of the turbos in the engine compartment.
Do the ceramic ball-bearing turbos "spool up" faster than a normal turbo?
YES! The ceramic ball-bearing design reduces the frictional loss that occurs with a conventional floating bearing-and-thrust system turbo. The ceramic ball-bearing design allows the turbo to accelerate much quicker, thus decreasing spool-up time. In most cases we have found our ceramic ball-bearing designs require 50 percent less energy to drive the turbo.
What is a "hybrid" turbocharger?
A "hybrid" turbo uses parts from two different families of turbochargers to create a completely new turbo to meet a specific need. This can be done with the same brand of turbos, or two different makes can be combined to form something totally new. An example is the T3/T4. This turbo uses T3 turbine parts combined with T4 compressor pieces to make a turbo that fits a certain horsepower and displacement range.
How does it all work?
Which wastegate do I need?
Most kits come with the Turbonetics Delgate Wastegate that only handles up to 13psi. Also known as a Delta-Spike ! Meaning, these things DO and WILL cause "Boost Spike"! However a NICE upgrade is the Tial line of .35mm or .40mm .46mm wastegates ! And the Tial does not have much “Boost creep”. It is practically eliminated. That means it hits boost sooner than your average wastegate. Simpy put...It's just a superior wastegate than most.
Selection of the correct size/model wastegate is dependent upon several variables.
Bolt in compatibility. The 35mm and 46mm gates are made to be direct bolt in replacements for existing wastegates as well as custom setups. The 35mm gate is dimensional equivalent to the Turbonetics 35mm delta gate with many features not found in the delta gate. The 46mm gate is a drop in for the 930 Porsche turbo cars.
Flow capacity. Contrary to popular belief, larger higher HP applications do not necessarily require the largest wastegate available. The lower the boost pressure you are gunning for the larger your wastegate needs to be. An engine/turbo combination that is set to 25+psi has a smaller wastegate flow requirement than the same application set to 7 psi. This is because the wastegate is used to lower the boost not raise it, the lower the boost pressure is set the more flow the wastegate must allow.
The spring. TiAL wastegates are not adjustable. To change the boost pressure at which the valve opens requires changing the spring within the wastegate. Springs range from .3 Bar to over 1 Bar are available. The most common way to select your spring size is to pick a pressure rating that is a couple tenths or a bar or a few psi lower than the boost pressure you intend to operate the turbo/engine combo at. This way a boost controller can be used to adjust the opening point of the wastegate and help you fine tune to the exact pressure that is desired. This also allows adjustments to compensate for changes in atm pressure, altitude and temperature, which will all effect the way your wastegate does it's job.
Mounting the wastegate.
This is one of the most overlooked areas of boost control. In a perfect world you would select a mounting location for our wastegate that allows the gate equal access to all cylinders or rotors. This promotes equal exhaust port pressures between cylinders/rotors and avoids mysterious tuning problems resulting from uneven exhaust port back pressures. Another aspect to keep in mind is the high velocity of the exhaust gas inside the exhaust manifold, sometimes exceeding 800ft sec. Gas that is traveling at such high velocities will not easily make 90 degree turns of zero radius into the wastegate inlet. Remember Newton's second law, "bodies in motion tend to stay on motion". That particle of air is not particularly inclined to make a 90 degree turn and 800ft/sec. It must be persuaded to do so by giving it a gentle radius and easy access to the exhaust flow. Simply welding the gate to the side of a tube may work in some cases where the manifold back pressure is thru the roof, but in modern high efficiency turbochargers the pressure inside the manifold can be quite low and special through should go into wastegate runner geometry. The penalty for poor gate placement and poor gate runner design is having to use a larger gate.
With internal wastegates could one use non-equal length turbo manifolds (b/c the wastegate is on the turbo instead of the manifold)?
Yes you can use Non-Equal Length and, no...it's not the best suggestion !"Equal-Length" gives you less chance of "Boost Creep" than say non-equal length...With ports matched and using the EXTERNAL wastegate which is usually designed to be centered and and NOT on runner 1. This is just a more efficent design and creates much better flow to the turbine. These are also lighter being Stainless Steel as opposed to Iron and "Hi-Ductile" Iron designs.
It also has to do with what kind of wastegate you use...The Delgates that come standard with most kits, tends to fail and cause boost creep...Although their Race-gate is an excellent design. I would always recomend the Tial line of wastegate products.
However...having an INTERNAL wastegate...of course your SMOG legal. BUT.....
As greater exhaust is put out...The internal wastegate actuators begin to lose their effectiveness because the amount of exhaust flow to be bypassed is now beyond their intended operating range. Because of more exhaust flow being greater than the valves capacity to discharge... So more exhaust flow is directed to the turbine and additional boost is created, which is called "Boost Creep". "Outlawed Boost" can now happen due to the volume of exhaust energy now being created. This is BAD...Nothing like :
"Whoa I set my MAX psi to 7 and all of a sudden I am hitting 10" ! This is Outlawed Boost Creep !!! <--This can be controlled by an excellent Boost Controller such as the Blitz SBC-DC or the Apex-i AVC-R and the AWESOME new HKS EVC ! These units have what's called "Pass and Hold" – This is a safety function that allows the operator to set the amount of boost decrease in the event of any over boost. Warning is in both visual and audible. The new HKS EVC uses microprocessors in the head unit, solenoid and LCD cockpit display. Instead of sending electricity down the wire to and from each unit, binary code is sent, much like a computer network. The end result is a boost controller that's smaller, faster, and much more precise. No matter..This will, and does happen...A cold winter day, and you can bet your bottom dollar your going to have some spikes NO matter what you use. Keep that in mind.....
So they each have their +'s and -'s (equal and non equal length manifolds) another way to look it would be...The manifold and wastegate work hand in hand ! Manifold pushes the exhaust gases...Wastegate controls them or how much gets to the turbine.
Equal Length with a good Tial .35mm (or even bigger for you REAL DRAGERS) wastegate is the ultimate "Race" setup ! For you Internal guys...Going with the Non-Equal length and internal wastegate is quite ok...Just not my personal opinion for the best setup suggestion. But it works and your legal for those states with strict SMOG laws !
What is turbo lag?
"Turbo lag" is a term used to describe the "lag" time (or response time) from the time the accelerator is pressed to the time when the turbocharger begins to affect performance. Generally speaking, the larger the turbo, the greater the lag time. Thus, there needs to be consideration given to both the "little" end and the "big" end when sizing a turbo to your vehicle.
What is a turbo upgrade?
Many things can be done to increase your turbo's power and efficiency. The turbo housing can be milled out, different diameter wheels can be added to increase horsepower, the wheel can be clipped to different, varying degrees to increase horsepower and response time. Nowadays most turbos come with a 360 degree thrust bearing...if not get one.
Why do I need a LSD (Limited Slip Differential)?
The Integra’s have a known “Pull” to the right anyway due to the engine design and engine location in the engine bay, not to mention the overall power and torque created by such a well desgined engine. But adding a turbo can INCREASE this dramatically to the point where you can potentially loose control of the car and NEVER hit boost in a corner ! Those of you with an ITR or ITR Tranny will not necessarily have to worry about this due to the ITR's own stock LSD, but then again your probably not running turbo anyway. But a LSD on a Integra Turbo is a MUST ! There are a few out there far cheaper than the Quaife but NOTHING comes even close to the performance and SOLID design of Quaife ! PERIOD ! And their guarantee says it all !
The Quaife Differential powers both drive wheels under nearly all conditions, instead of just one. With an ordinary open differential, standard on most cars, a lot of precious power is wasted during wheel spin under acceleration. This happens because the open differential shifts power to the wheel with less grip (along the path of least resistance). The Quaife, however, does just the opposite. It senses which wheel has the better grip, and biases the power to that wheel. It does this smoothly and constantly, and without ever completely removing power from the other wheel.
In drag-race style, straight-line acceleration runs, this results in a close to ideal 50/50 power split to both drive wheels, resulting in essentially twice the grip of an ordinary differential (they don't call open diffs "peglegs" for nothing).
In cornering, while accelerating out of a turn, the Quaife biases power to the outside wheel, reducing inside-wheel spin. This allows the driver to begin accelerating earlier, exiting the corner at a higher speed.
The Quaife also controls loss of traction when the front wheels are on slippery surfaces such as ice and snow or mud, providing the appropriate biased traction needed to overcome these adverse conditions. The Quaife Differential provides constant and infinitely variable drive. Power is transferred automatically without the use of normal friction pads or plates seen in other limited-slip designs.
The Quaife's unique design offers maximum traction, improves handling and steering, and puts the power where it is needed most. A definite advantage whether on the track or on the street.
The Quaife is extremely strong and durable and since the Quaife is gear operated, it has no plates or clutches that can wear out and need costly replacement.
The Quaife is great for street driving or racing. Racers don't have to put up with locking mechanisms or spools that tear the steering wheel out of their hands when cornering. Because it behaves like an open differential during ordinary driving, street drivers will have trouble telling it's there until pushing the car's limits.
The Quaife has been proven in everything from SCCA Rally to Formula 1. It provides auto-crossers with such an advantage; it has become "required" equipment for a winning effort.
Every Quaife ATB Differential comes with something else others don't have:
a Limited Lifetime Warranty. This warranty applies even when raced !
Why do I need a Boost Controller ?
A Boost Controller allows you to control electronically how much PSI is sent to the Turbo and is a far more accurate and safer method in controlling boost. The name says it all ! As I stated above...about how these work....
There are a couple of different price ranges out there, from $75.00 for the manully adjusted units, to $350-$800 on the electronic units.
I personally use and indorse the Blitz & HKS line of products.
At MSRP of $669.00 for some of the Boost Controllers, they better deliver ! And MOST do and then some !
But Greddy makes a good electronic unit for those on a budget.
Why do I need a Turbo Timer ?
The basic function of a Turbo Timer is to allow the vehicle to idle the engine, for a timed period, with the ignition key removed. This allows the engine oil and turbo center cartridge to cool down and prevent internal turbo damage.
Blitz also makes the Best in my opnion of these types of units.
Blitz Turbo Timer model # FATT-DC is by far the Top Of The Line.
"So I'm planning to UPGRADE parts in the engine before I actually put the turbo in. What should be the main things I would be looking to replace ?"
Piston & Rods
Valves, Springs, Retainers
Head Studs
Water Pump
Timing Belt
Ignition
Aftermarket Head Gasket
Fuel Injectors
EMS/FMS such as Hondata or AEM-EMS
ADVICE: I hear so many people ask me now "What would you do differently when turboing a Honda/Acura?" One kinda long answer !
Spend the money do it right build the block, all the way BUILT !
Ask yourself this.."I saved my money to buy this kit...Only to find out later on down the road "BOOM" for some un-seen act of god my motor blew up and it's not my fault" ! Now who is the idiot ? If you would have done things right the first time..Saved your cash, built your block, ran some kind of EMS/FMS and tuned the dam thing properly... You would not be out as much cash now would ya ? Ehh get my point ? PAITENCE...
Our cars were never intended to be turboed. DUH ! BUILD IT, TUNE IT, HAVE FUN ! Good luck ! :)
Most of this info below was obtained from questions I asked to ANTHONY "Tony" PALO: Crew Chief for NHRA Hot Rod driver Kenny Tran and head mechanic of the famed JoTech Motorsports in Garland, Texas.
"Now that I have all this info and all these parts...What do I do ? How do I tune the car properly ?"
AFR is the key: Air Fuel Ratio !
What you want is a Dyno with a Wideband O2 sensor and nothing else ! Also a Lambda Meter is an excellent tool to have. With these tools, you can get your AFR properly tuned ! Too many people out there think the BIG HP an TQ numbers is where it's at ! WRONG ! Peak HP, when it comes down to it... means NOTHING if your AFR is NOT right ! Guess what ? BOOM !
11:8-12:1 AFR is what you want on a turbo 4 cyl. This is PERFECT AFR ! Get it as close to 11:8-12:1 as possible. What that means is...Your AFR plot line should look like a dead man on an operating table !
Getting 11:8-12:1 AFR requires either adding fuel or subtracting fuel at different RPM points until that curve is as FLAT, and as close to 11:8 throughout the ENTIRE RPM band ! <---This does NOT mean at idle ! Remember 11:8-12:1 is PERFECT so this is your goal, this does not mean you can always get there...If you are at 12:0 that is close but there is a bit more to it than just AFR...Timing and ignition play a role as well to achieve 11:8-12:1 AFR. Atmospheric pressure also is a factor. Using a Stand alone also greatly improves your chances of 11:8-12:1 AFR. Keyword : QULIFIED TUNER !
Ehh ? SPEND THE MONEY !
That's why I can't stress enough NEVER go the cheap route on tuning ! Spend the cash and make sure the shop/tuner/dyno has an AWESOME rep to back it up !
Now depending on WHO tunes the car, and what kind of FMS/EMS, and what size injectors your using,CFM and trim size of the turbo etc. this should NOT be a problem to obtain ! Don't let BIG HP & TQ numbers fool ya...A perfectly tuned turbo car with an 11:8-12:1 AFR means reliable, strong POWER ! What you want is proper AFR bottom line ! Peak HP means NOTHING if you are running too Lean or too Rich.
One more VERY important thing...When you tune this car ALL of you guys PAY ATTENTION to this :
This statement I see alot :
"Is it ok for a daily driver at 7-10 psi and 13 at the track."
This is a NO NO someone tell me what's wrong with this statement ?
When you tune your tuning for what ? AFR ! Guess what....When you tune the car at 10psi and then head down to your local track and crank it up to 13psi !!! What do you think happens to your AFR ? You guessed it... It's not the same as 10psi !!! What does this mean ?
NOT SMART huh....DUH !
When you tune on a dyno and set your AFR and your at 10-psi, that's what your tuning is set at !!! PERIOD ! Crank that psi up and all the $$$ you just spent went down the drain because your NOT properly tuned anymore ! When you crank up the boost your pushing more air in the motor and this means your AFR = AIR FUEL RATIO has NOW CHANGED !!!= RISK ! HIGH RISK !! DANGER ! Not smart ! When you tune, your tuned ! LEAVE it alone or your NOT tuned anymore ! Now, now you stand alone guys read below...
Let me clearify a bit more on the tune for proper afr and set it and forget it...
What that means is you need to load another fuel map for that psi level if you were to crank up the boost from 10 to say 13-15psi.
If your runing a stand alone system. But again keep this in mind.
You still need to tune proper ! You know your ecu can read boost
So those who use a Stand Alone FMS/EMS such as Hondata and AEM, have the ability to crank the boost up after a tune anytime ! These units have what is called a "Learning Mode" !
It means that, if in the case you are with the AEM/EMS...This unit has the ability to adjust your AFR needs on the fly and...(this is the part I love about the AEM/EMS) It will RECORD that info and burn it to your chip and VIOLA you got yourself a new map to load at will !! Now tell me that isn’t some kick arse Technology !!!
The Hondata can do the same thing..But you have to buy the data logger function as an add on to tweak and tune yourself
:( $$ spend it :)
It still has "Learning Mode" so your pretty safe.
The base Hondata unit is cheaper than the AEM/EMS, but in the end...If you want all the features of the Hondata you just pay for them. The AEM system has them already packaged in!...(hence the price is higher)
So in the end it will cost you about the same for the fully loaded Hondata. But it's soooo easy to tune with.
Tuning with the AEM, we all know requires more time and skill and can be more expensive...But guess what ? AEM has a school for ANY and ALL qualified tuners to learn this NEW system ! And.....Oh it gets better...They have excellent product support and a great forum to help the end user get to where they want too on there OWN !
Hondata has the same deal and their system is proven to work (it’s been out longer) FYI the s200 ROCKS ! But you get the idea here....Hell go MoTeC and it blows them all out of the water....But then again that's for the REAL race cars !!!! :)
Don't forget about the other guys who make Stand Alone FMS/EMS units.
( I am not going to list them all ) Apex-i has just released their verison of a FMS/EMS called "Power FC"...It is for 96-98 Integra GSR/LS/Type R (U.S.) Hopefully we will see availability soon for earlier model Tegs.
DEAR GOD AN THE FOR LOVE OF PETE DONT WIMP OUT HERE.
STAND ALONE STAND ALONE STAND ALONE...
For those of you with built motors (Pistons & Rods, Head-work)Lil something from the "Masta Texas Tuner". Take it away Tony..
Your not really gonna have a safe tune with that "KIT" setup. The problem is with a 12:1 regulator (FMU), at say 10psi, it will add 120psi of fuel pressure to your base of 40. 160psi fuel pressure = not good for injectors. (based on say RC 310 injectors) Then at 15 psi you will have 220psi.
Your average kit pump can't supply more than about 160. So, from 10 psi to 20 psi you will have the same amount of fuel. You could try and richen it by the afc,vafc route but these units are only relevant to rpm. You need a computer that can read boost ! (AEM-EMS, Hondata, etc.) So you can get the extra fuel through the control of a big injector rather than crazy fuel pressures. With the standalone setup, and a 255lph intank pump and 550 or 720cc injectors you should be able to push 300-350HP to the wheels on pump gas !
The only weak point I see is the stock sleeves. They can handle 300-350 but are very unforgiving at the least amount of detonation at that power level.
Bottom line, with a standalone ECU 15psi shouldn't be any problem at all. Don't even try it with the fmu/vafc and stock ecu setup!! You will eventually BLOW the motor !
Anthony "Tony" Palo
JoTech Motorsports
& BoostControl
Good luck !
Check this Article often..I will edit and add to this with everyones input.
Thanks ! And HAPPY BOOSTIN !
BoostControl "
End qoute.
Everything here is from the states so don't forget the currency and pricing factors you'll need to take into consideration.
Turbo charging is easier to source parts for and is also easier to upgrade (boost via bleed valves or EVC, bigger turbos & types, external wastegates etc..)
Excellent info Dave. :thumbsup:
That sums it up. Honda auto transmissions are good for an engine in stock form (or with mild mods) but if you plan on going for FI you can forget it.Quote:
I've got an auto transmission. How well will the transmission hold up?
I've had no experience with automatic transmissions. What little experience I have had with them isn't pretty. The torque converter, for starters, isn't properly matched with the newly generated torque. Some users report that the transmission will not correctly shift. As the cost of a Level Ten torque converter is close to that of a 5-speed swap, I would recommend changing to the manual transmission and kiss all of the automatic transmission woes good-bye. There seems to be a huge group of automatic transmission owners who don't want to let go of their non-performance geared transmissions; like I've said before, it's not my money.
B - if you really want a quicker car with more power, i suggest you learn to drive manual and get a VTi-R. hehehe... :P
yeah B whatever happened to swapping for a 5spd EG?
i think even with more "power" dropped into the auto u might have some trouble harnessing/controlling the extra hp..... i've been in both a manual and an auto S13 K (turbo) with the same driver, and he mentioned (and i felt) that driving the auto was much more difficult in terms of controlling/manoveuring as well as managing the turbo kick-in....
u'll have more fun and safety with a manual!
hope that makes sense....
even just swapping to a manual tranny you'll enjoy it for a few months before you want more power :)