B18C built vs b20vtec built

Hi All,

I'm in a big of a situation where, i've got an EG5 with a B20vtec + ITBs.

The problem with this is....engineering. If you know what i'm talking about, it's a bit of stuffing around. But basically, i have to change the itb to stock intake to pass an engineering certificate. I also need a stock/aftermarket quiet exhaust to pass emissions. I also want to have aircon and cold start, but with ITB's it just that more painful.

So, i've decided i'll be going to a B18C (integra vti-r) bottom end build.

The original b18 that was in my EG is still with the engine builder, so at least i can build that up and it's still registered to my chassis. =) (massive bonus!)

I'll be removing my head from my b20vtec and putting that on the b18c block. I'll just be running OEM parts in the bottom end rebuild, as i don't have to cash to use forged/strengthened items. I'll also be getting rid of the ITB in exchange for an DC2R ported Intake Manifold with a 68mm throttle body and a CAI. If i can find a mugen intake for an EG with a B series, i'll be snapping that up too. =)

It's heartbreaking taking apart the b20vtec build, as it's just so satisfying to drive.

Just wanted to see what experiences everyone else has with a b18c/b16 build compared to a b20vtec.

It's my daily driver and with summer coming up...i'd really like aircon. Or....am i just being a wuss about the aircon?

Is it worth going BACK to a b18???

Thanks!

Chris

Hey mate, I went from a b16a to a b18c and that was a decent difference, then it blew so i had it built, camms, forged pistons etc etc and it was awesome, massive improvement!! Then I went to a built b20vtec with ITB's like you and the difference was ridiculous!! the built b20 with itbs was such a massive improvement on midrange over the b18. If i had a choice i would go the b20 with itbs no doubt but sounds like you don't have much choice. The built b18 will no doubt be awesome, but prob won't match your current setup. mind you, in the end, it all comes down to who builds it and who tunes it.

u can always just at the moment slap on the head to your b18c block and get a stroker kit down the track.... but im not sure if that affects ur engineering etc.
just food for thought.

why dont you, take off the itb's put on a intake manifold + stock exhaust to get it engineered then put everything back.. trust me its all worth it , you have a b20 with ITBS for sure craazy , wouldnt wanna waste it .. and your car use to be in my area was a machhhiinnneee :)

cheers

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Originally Posted by JDM-EGG

why dont you, take off the itb's put on a intake manifold + stock exhaust to get it engineered then put everything back.. trust me its all worth it , you have a b20 with ITBS for sure craazy , wouldnt wanna waste it .. and your car use to be in my area was a machhhiinnneee :)

cheers

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Agreed.

You have a tough motor, built well. Get an OEM exhaust and intake for like $100 total and just pay for it to be engineered. How much is engineering up in NSW?

Friggin' worth it :D

its all worth it , as u said ur willing to build a b18c ? when u can get ur b20 to get it up and registered for the money your spending on your b18 . :):)

would you sell the b20 block?

Why don't you put an airbox on the ITB's & have that fed from a Mugen Airbox?

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Originally Posted by quangsuke

u can always just at the moment slap on the head to your b18c block and get a stroker kit down the track.... but im not sure if that affects ur engineering etc.
just food for thought.

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This path actually works out as the most easiest way to avoid an engineering certificate. As long as the engine number is B18xxxx, then it's within the 15% maximum increase from the stock 1.6 litre capacity. But, having to stroke and sleeve a B18 is very expensive, compared to starting with a b20.

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Originally Posted by eg5civic

would you sell the b20 block?

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No. The engine builder wants any part of my engine returned to him, instead of being sold. Perfectly understandable.

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Originally Posted by TODA AU

Why don't you put an airbox on the ITB's & have that fed from a Mugen Airbox?

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Hi Adrian,

I've also looked down this path. Efihardware.com.au have air boxes that will accommodate my ITB's. But, I still won't have cold start, nor will I be able to have aircon.... =(

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

Hi Adrian,

I've also looked down this path. Efihardware.com.au have air boxes that will accommodate my ITB's. But, I still won't have cold start, nor will I be able to have aircon.... =(

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I don't understand what the problem with cold start & A/C is?
What sort of quads are they & what ECU. These are problems that can generally be solved if your existing parts are actually any good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

No. The engine builder wants any part of my engine returned to him, instead of being sold. Perfectly understandable.

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Actually no, that sounds kinda weird & a bit like you're being led down the garden path.
Who is giving you the advice to spend more money & get another engine?
& "give" your old engine back? (That you paid for) Really?

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Originally Posted by TODA AU

Actually no, that sounds kinda weird & a bit like you're being led down the garden path.
Who is giving you the advice to spend more money & get another engine?
& "give" your old engine back? (That you paid for) Really?

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^^^^^^^^^^

Which ITB's are you using atm?

nothing in this thread makes sense.

if you have a b20 in the car, why would you get rid of it?

if you don't like the quads then change that, if you like A/C then put it on.....

why would you go from a 2.0 to 1.8

You say that its big hassle to engineer. I ask you....... whats more troublesome.

build a b18 from scratch, buy all peripherals, install, tune, register......

or

just change out your quads.


i don't understand your logic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TODA AU

Actually no, that sounds kinda weird & a bit like you're being led down the garden path.
Who is giving you the advice to spend more money & get another engine?
& "give" your old engine back? (That you paid for) Really?

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The reason is, I don't own the b18 anymore. It's just fortunate that it's still sitting there.

The reason why i have to fork out money for the b18 is because it's just the bare block we're starting with. I have to get new rods, pistons, etc for the bottom end.

The only things I'll be keeping from my b20 is the head and things that bolt on. Water pump, oil pump, alternator, etc. Basically trading in a b20 bottom end.

why?

you lose out.

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Originally Posted by Bludger

nothing in this thread makes sense.

if you have a b20 in the car, why would you get rid of it?

if you don't like the quads then change that, if you like A/C then put it on.....

why would you go from a 2.0 to 1.8

You say that its big hassle to engineer. I ask you....... whats more troublesome.

build a b18 from scratch, buy all peripherals, install, tune, register......

or

just change out your quads.


i don't understand your logic.

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Why get rid of the b20? Engineering.... and all the hoops you have to jump through to even pass one.

It's not that difficult to build from scratch. I've got all the peripherals, straight from my b20. Install...swap heads, engine out and engine in. Tuning is tuning. Actually easier to tune a single tb than quads. Register.....in my previous post, the b18 is already registered to my eg. It was my old engine.

With removing the quads, I'll be putting in the ported ITR IM and an omni power 68mm TB with a CAI. and just a retune. I'll have cold start and the ability to run aircon. But, still engineering.

With engineering, they dont just check the engine number and you're done.
You gotta prove the b20 came from an ADR complied vehicle. All emissions controls are in place. Brakes have been upgraded to match the bigger capacity. And all other things on the car that must comply with ADR rules. Exhaust emissions and noise. The intake must also comply, hence going with itr IM. Braided brake lines, make sure they are ADR approved. Did you know that an aftermarket programmable ECU is a big NO NO with EPA? so, running the b20vtec with my hondata S200 doesn't pass EPA already. But, the RTA don't care about the ECU. so, that's a risk we all take with the EPA.

So, from what I gather...everyone would chose a built b20vtec and get it engineered over a built b18c?

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Originally Posted by pinoy-boi

Which ITB's are you using atm?

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45mm A-Sport itb's.

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

So, from what I gather...everyone would chose a built b20vtec and get it engineered over a built b18c?

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you chose a journey.

you've gone halfway down the road and then think to yourself that its too far to reach your destination, you want to go back.

there is no right or wrong, just what you decide but you've already gone down the road, be a winner and finish your journey.

there is no shame in giving up and going home, just lost glory.

my 2c

extra edit. in the ned only you can decide cos time and money is factor as well.

Look, b18 isn't bad, I drive a built one regularly and torque is awesome, but i wouldn't be saying this if i had experienced a b20 with quads.

do u mind pm'ing me pricing on them?

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Originally Posted by pinoy-boi

do u mind pm'ing me pricing on them?

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They were already on the car when I bought it. So, pricing wise, I don't know. Rough guess....$1k. Maybe..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bludger

Look, b18 isn't bad, I drive a built one regularly and torque is awesome, but i wouldn't be saying this if i had experienced a b20 with quads.

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Trying to PM you, but your inbox is full.

i don't have pm.

whats up?

This car is also my daily driver with about 2-4 track days a year.

Which one do we all think would last longer? I have read that B20's like to self destruct, but I've read it also comes down to the tune.

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Originally Posted by Bludger

i don't have pm.

whats up?

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If you had a choice between the two, which one would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

No. The engine builder wants any part of my engine returned to him, instead of being sold. Perfectly understandable.

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LOL. Your getting scammed and taken for a ride.

Nothing special about your b20 bottom end. Mostly standard bits. Really its not "built" just refreshed with stronger rod bolts.

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Originally Posted by fatboyz39

LOL. Your getting scammed and taken for a ride.

Nothing special about your b20 bottom end. Mostly standard bits. Really its not "built" just refreshed with stronger rod bolts.

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Yep. I know it's not a built b20, and yes I know it's pretty much standard but a little stronger. It's only running a low 9.8:1 comp ratio. But if I can get it engineered, I'm going to strengthen the bottom end and raise comp to 11.5-12.0:1.

Even though it's a pretty stock bottom end, I'm extremely happy with it. With higher comp, it'll be even better! =)

so you want to drop a b18 back into your car have you thought of using the crank and rods from b20 to drop into the b18 block you got so its a lsvtec so you can still get it engineered pretty easy still

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

This car is also my daily driver with about 2-4 track days a year.

Which one do we all think would last longer? I have read that B20's like to self destruct, but I've read it also comes down to the tune.

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Stock sleeves can only handle so much. Bad tune/bad batch of fuel/ blocked injector and etc can lead to a quick destruction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

Yep. I know it's not a built b20, and yes I know it's pretty much standard but a little stronger. It's only running a low 9.8:1 comp ratio. But if I can get it engineered, I'm going to strengthen the bottom end and raise comp to 11.5-12.0:1.

Even though it's a pretty stock bottom end, I'm extremely happy with it. With higher comp, it'll be even better! =)

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And leave a bigger hole in the wallet.

Just file off the stock b20 number and hammer in your stock engines... throw your stock block into the sea. Problem solved

you can order 2000cc stroker kits from companies which are good value for your 1.8
just do a search many japanese and american companies make off teh shelf kits
be a easy swap over as you have all the parts already

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Originally Posted by Lerlo

Just file off the stock b20 number and hammer in your stock engines... throw your stock block into the sea. Problem solved

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I like this suggestion LOL. Now where can you get OEM honda punch numbers?

just go into any honda dealer its off the shelf

GREAT NEWS!!!

I've just spoken with an Authorised RTA Engineer. He gave me the run down on what i need to do to pass.

I've pretty much got everything lined up to be installed and i should pass. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::D:D:D:D

the b20 right?

what did the engineer say about going from 1600cc to 2000cc?

not a problem?

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Originally Posted by defect

the b20 right?

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Yep! Cert for the B20! =)

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

what did the engineer say about going from 1600cc to 2000cc?

not a problem?

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The Engineer said it's perfectly fine. As long as i have upgraded the brakes to support the bigger capacity, which i have with DC2R 5 stud conversion + brake booster + master cylinder. Which is also being installed tomorrow. Woot!!!

He did say that for it to be legal, ALL emission controls HAVE to be in place. So the charcoal canister has to be connected and functioning. The rocker cover oil blow by has to be connected along the intake arm. And i think that's about it for the B series.

My exhaust has to be legal too. Ride height legal too. Nothing on the dash board padding area. Just the usual "legalities" for modded cars.

So, once all that's done, i'll be good to go.

Oh, and if anyone is planning on doing the same thing, you MUST retain the standard intake manifold and throttle body. The piping from the throttle body to the airbox doesn't really matter, as long as it's present. And the intake box has to be fully enclosed. A CAI into the bumper does not count as an enclosure. So the Mugen/CT icebox and those types are legal. If you do change the throttle body and/or intake manifold then you HAVE to go to an EPA station, jump on the dyno and not exceed noise and pollution emission limits.

I hope this helps those who are thinking about it. I've decided to jump through the many hoops to do it, but i think it'll be worth it in the end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

The Engineer said it's perfectly fine. As long as i have upgraded the brakes to support the bigger capacity, which i have with DC2R 5 stud conversion + brake booster + master cylinder. Which is also being installed tomorrow. Woot!!!

He did say that for it to be legal, ALL emission controls HAVE to be in place. So the charcoal canister has to be connected and functioning. The rocker cover oil blow by has to be connected along the intake arm. And i think that's about it for the B series.

My exhaust has to be legal too. Ride height legal too. Nothing on the dash board padding area. Just the usual "legalities" for modded cars.

So, once all that's done, i'll be good to go.

Oh, and if anyone is planning on doing the same thing, you MUST retain the standard intake manifold and throttle body. The piping from the throttle body to the airbox doesn't really matter, as long as it's present. And the intake box has to be fully enclosed. A CAI into the bumper does not count as an enclosure. So the Mugen/CT icebox and those types are legal. If you do change the throttle body and/or intake manifold then you HAVE to go to an EPA station, jump on the dyno and not exceed noise and pollution emission limits.

I hope this helps those who are thinking about it. I've decided to jump through the many hoops to do it, but i think it'll be worth it in the end.

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Good information.

So you're going with modified peripherals & going to get it EPA tested? Or are you going to stick with standard IM/TB & skip all that BS?

So a quad throttle setup can work legally with a custom airbox enclosure........ just as long as it passes the EPA........???....???..??.?

+one

If you pass EPA, you can get it engineered, regardless if you have 1030040402mm tb or 155322 throttles on the car, engineer just wants to be sure its emissions friendly for the compliances put against the car when it was released from factory :)

I'm going with an ITR intake manifold and 68mm throttle body that looks completely stock from the outside. I'll be running a metal pipe from the tb to the airbox. If I can't find a 2nd Mugen airbox kit, then I'll just be running an OEM ITR airbox but modified like what I've seen on other forums. As long as it's properly enclosed, it'll pass. The only thing I have to double check at the moment is the 68mm throttle body. I gotta take pics and send it to him, to see if he'll pass it. If not, then i have to do EPA.... With a lean tune of course.

Yes, itb's are fine...as long as they are enclosed.

Who said lean tune makes your car pass emissions?

If anything it makes it worse...

I've seen some 68mm TB's look pretty close to standard, kinda has benefits not buying a blingy looking one at times I guess. You still running your charcoal canister setup?

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

The Engineer said it's perfectly fine.

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so he is using the LVMGs?

nice...

What is a LVMG's?

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

What is a LVMG's?

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Light Vehicle Modification Guidelines from RTA: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registrati...s_nov_2007.pdf

there is also the National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa.../vsb_ncop.aspx

can you find out which one he is using?

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

Light Vehicle Modification Guidelines from RTA: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registrati...s_nov_2007.pdf

there is also the National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa.../vsb_ncop.aspx

can you find out which one he is using?

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It'll be a few weeks before I book in with the Engineer to get the certificate. But, I'll let you know exactly what happens when it's all passed, done, legal and registered. =)

Woohoo! Quads are gone. ITR manifold and 70mm TB with mugen style airbox in now =)

Final tune next week =)

why not put ur ITB back on once it has passed?

its not like you have to go through all this again later on ... once its done - its done

i would have just slapped on the cheapest parts possible to pass - than put your ITB etc back on

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Originally Posted by TheSaint

why not put ur ITB back on once it has passed?

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the point of getting engineering sign-off is so you reduce the chance of being defected by police patrols etc...

pretty silly to get it all engineered OK then to put bits on that aren't listed in the engineers report?

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

the point of getting engineering sign-off is so you reduce the chance of being defected by police patrols etc...

pretty silly to get it all engineered OK then to put bits on that aren't listed in the engineers report?

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+1

I want it all legal so i can't get hassled at all. I don't normally drive like an idiot on the road, so i normally don't catch their attention. But if the off chance, eg....ozhonda meet ups where people got defected, i don't have to worry about this at all. =)

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

Woohoo! Quads are gone. ITR manifold and 70mm TB with mugen style airbox in now =)

Final tune next week =)

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I take it the airbox, vacuum tank, thermotatic valve, VSV & Secondary tables was in the too hard basket?

So you know, the 70mm throttle on an ITR intake manifold with Mugen style box is less than ideal
To make that work you'd need a dyno tuned CAI.
In your case, if you swap to 65mm throttle & you'll pick-up 5kw everywhere.
Btw. the match porting limit of an ITR is 64~65mm anyway so you've likley wasted your money on the throttleon two counts.
If you really must use bigger than 65, you'll need a Skunk2 manifold.

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Originally Posted by TODA AU

I take it the airbox, vacuum tank, thermotatic valve, VSV & Secondary tables was in the too hard basket?

So you know, the 70mm throttle on an ITR intake manifold with Mugen style box is less than ideal
To make that work you'd need a dyno tuned CAI.
In your case, if you swap to 65mm throttle & you'll pick-up 5kw everywhere.
Btw. the match porting limit of an ITR is 64~65mm anyway so you've likley wasted your money on the throttleon two counts.
If you really must use bigger than 65, you'll need a Skunk2 manifold.

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In addition to the "too much stuffing" around basket, the quads were only 42mm throats, which are a little small for a B20 vtec. 50mm would be more idea and respond better to my setup. And, that the TWM airbox i looked at didn't have enough volume to keep the ITB's happy. I would still have to go down the custom airbox path to accommodate them, which again...for me is in "too much stuffing" around basket.

Oh, and another thing, by changing the intake from stock itr manifold and stock looking tb, the engineer was happy with that. But as soon i start making the manifold and tb look aftermarket, he said i have to do an EPA run. Which means....no aftermarket programmable ECU = no s200 to run my setup = no run = no certificate. So, as you can see....it just snow balled and got bigger than Ben Hur, which is a pretty big show!(so i'm told) =)

I'm only running a 70mm TB for the meantime, as we didn't have a dyno available for testing between the 70mm and 68mm TB's. So it's just to get by for now, until this week or next week. Whenever the dyno is ready. Once it is ready, we'll be doing back to back testing to see which one is best suited for my setup. I'm not there yet, but getting close =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris S15

Oh, and another thing, by changing the intake from stock itr manifold and stock looking tb, the engineer was happy with that. But as soon i start making the manifold and tb look aftermarket, he said i have to do an EPA run. Which means....no aftermarket programmable ECU = no s200 to run my setup = no run = no certificate. So, as you can see....it just snow balled and got bigger than Ben Hur, which is a pretty big show!(so i'm told) =)

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pretty sure you'd have to do an EPA run anyways if you want it to be certified 'legal'

check the links in post #50

eg: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa...s_3Feb2006.pdf

like i said before, check with your engineer which certification he is using? NCOP or LVMG?

either way they can still send you back to epa whether you have engineers cert of not