Printable View
anyone dealt with them before?
i was just looking at their site and was considering a turbo upgrade (stage 1) kit since i'm still in the early stages of my mods
seems like a good way to spend 5k to get some power out of my vti-r b18c
thoughts anyone?
It’s a ok kit for what you get for 5000$, designed for low boost only applications, but its not designed for anything more than a little bit of boost. Do some research and you should find better options such as piecing together your own custom turbo kit, buy parts which will last, don’t cut corners other wise the life of your engine will suffer.
I recently fixed up a cheap turbo conversion on a dc2, the original customer had cut way to many corners, fixing up the mistakes alone cost more than 5000$ do the job correctly the second time that’s all I can say, go with quality and worry about price later. The turbo dc2 type r running 7psi totally stock engine making more than double its original power at the wheels, but the kit now / setup will have no problems running 20+psi when the engine gets built.
Best thing is to look at your goals what do you want out of your car, how much more power do you want, how far will you go in the future, you need to answer these questions so u can get a kit designed for your needs, and not a kit which is cheap.
Regards James
For $5,000 I think you're getting all the basic stuff like a cast manifold, small turbo (equivalent to a T25), dump pipe, piping from turbo to throttle body, oil lines, vacuum hoses, extra injector & chip. You wont be getting a cooler I don;t think. Take a good look at what's in the kit and set out your budget. I am pretty sure all their kits are enigineered.
If you can afford about $6,000, you can probably go a better custom job with better fuel management.
If you don;t want to rebuild your motor I am assuming that you would want to go pretty basic set up. An intercooler would help especially with the summer weather getting pretty hot which increases risk of detonation.
at the moment what i'm hoping from the set up is
for it to be some what reliable ( heard horror stories of engine bits blowing outta the engine) so i'm gueessin a small boost of about 7psi woulndt be too bad
no turbo lag
the kit comes with a Bar and plate intercooler core with high flow cast aluminium tanks (thats pretty much an intercooler isnt it?)
at the moment not looking to change the internals unless its necessary cause i'll prob be content with the small boost
previously was considering going all motor but i doubt i'll get as much from changing the internals and i'll prob end up spending alot more than 5 ks
also is there any point investing in extractors (thinking jdm 4-1s)if i'm considering going turbo?
nup you cant use extractors on a turbo setup, since the turbo is mounted to the exhaust manifold
Only thing i dont like about the AVO turbo kits is the fuel setup, they use an extra injector from memory
whats so bad about an extra injector?Quote:
Originally Posted by poid
my opinion is that with an extra injector you may risk uneven fuel distribution amongst the cylinders, so could get detonation in a cylinder more easily or have cylinder running richer than others, resulting in a less than optimal tune.
I much prefer swapping 4 larger injectors in place of the stock ones
You'll need ECU upgrade with larger injectors too.
And don't forget your clutch will die a pre-mature death.
On small bosst you might get away with the stock clutch. I ran 9psi on my stock ITR clutch and it held it all right.
Extra injectors are a cheapo quick alternative to four bigger injectors.
Do the fuel system properly as this is one of the most vital partsin keeping your motor alive! Don't go cheap on it, plus you need a good tuner!
Eg: 7 psi, extra injector = risk of engine damage, medium power gain.
9psi, ems, bigger injectors, fuel pump, fuel reg + good tuner = less risk with more power than the fisrt set up.
having a small turbo or big turbo has nothing to do with anything. You have to make sure of what power goals your after, your budget and who you trust.
Once you got that you will be able to determine if you can fullfill your cars needs. If you want to have a go at going bodgey by all means do it and learn the hard way. Take some advice from people with experience not thoughts.
here's a list of things i recon you will need to make a unreal street boosted car....
pick and choose what you want.. but without eveything your cutting corners...and this is only the start.. before you look at doing your engine suspension and brakes...
Turbo GT30XX Garret ballbearing
Turbo Mainfold full-race.com
Down Pipe
Wastegate
Waste gate dump
stainless Cooler pipes
Injectors 660cc
Fuel Pump
Hondata S200
PWR Radiator
13" fan
MSD 6x Igintion spark
oil change
filter change
fuel filter
air filter
air intake piping
fuel reg
nuts bolts fittings materials
Tuning
labour
coolent
plugs
gasket
oil feed / drain / Water
silcon
oil sump baffel + drain
intercooler
Intake Mainfold
Fuel Rail
clutch
spark plug leads
E-01 Boost controller
Turbo Timer
Regards James
Hye blxcrx. by fuel reg to u mean a fuel pressure regulator? Why wont the stock rail pressures be good enough with larger injectors, i always thought that u only needed higher rail pressures if u wanted to get more outa ur injectors, but 660cc should be good for a non-built motor?
Yes fuel reg is a fuel pressure regulator, you don't want to use the stock one because under high boost there just not safe, yes iv run boosted car's using the stock reg but when you start using boost in a regulator not designed for boost your asking for trouble unless you have the best engine management....its also handy to get a reg with a gauge on it so you can read the pressure on a dyno, I don’t use fuel reg’s to increase pressure like some people do to squeeze more fuel thought the injectors, I use it to make sure maintain a perfect 38psi or so fuel pressure under all conditions, basically your want a raising rate fuel pressure reg for boost. As for the 660’s there good enough for 20psi easy, although again the important thing to any engine turbo conversion is fuel and fuel management, making sure you have enough fuel flow is very important, again if you build your engine or looking at buildig your engine why cut corners in the early days buy equipment that will work later on if you build your engine.
James, that mean setup for the street is overkill in parts dont you think?
the average joe doesnt spend that sorta money on a street car all in one hit bro.
It would be better to list the parts that he needs in terms of non branded or generic things, ie turbo manifold, dump pipe, injectors etc.
But for 6 psi, Id just use a small turbo t25s or t28s even up to t3 are good for the street, use an internal gate on these turbos (which most will come with 6psi springs). Manifolds, u can cheap ones made for 600, avo's cast ones set u back about 800, get a cheap intercooler, evo/vr4 ones rock, bov (turbosmart, or whatever cheap brand, hell dont even need one, just ask powered by honda), fueling u can go the cheap 1 injector, but id go 4 rx7 injectors or other big top feed injectors, drill into the fuel rail, and get a good computer to control it all.
fuel pump and fuel reg? its honestly not needed at 6 psi, when i ran the lude, it was sweet, and never ran outta duty cycle at 6 psi, i was running stock injectors at 5 psi for abit.
at 6 psi ud be surprised but ur VTEC/turbo is quite fast :)
I think its overkill as well, the GT30xx is a bit big if you are only gonna run 10psi or under (which, lets face it, is the case when running stock internals), full-race mani is hella expensive for someone once again only for for a small street setup (besides which, the full-race mani's arent compatible with air con are they?).
I'm not sure why you'd need the MSD spark unit either, and the stock radiator and fan should work fine. Similary i dont see the point of changing the intake mani running stock internals either. Fuel rail, again i think a bit unnecessary.
I agree with you regarding the rest of the fuel setup (though you dont need 660cc injectors, there's no harm in having bigger ones when you get the urge to upgrade). The FPR is a good idea, simply because you want to hold the fuel pressure steady, and if you get one of the nice units with a gauge built in it helps you keep an eye on things while you are tuning. Its not necessary but you can get the things for under $200 easy, so its not expensive either.
just curious poid but wont the smaller turbos run out of puff so to speak by the time you hit about 8k ? (i think this is why james is suggesting it)
obviously the smaller turbos would be good for the lower reving engines.
allthough i could just be showing my ignorance =)
-2ds
gt30 LOL...did u read his first post..he wants something mild..not to build a frikkin drag car. Id use a t28 or the biggest would be a t3 for a street setup and like porn star said even running 7-9psi ull see a HUGE improvement. Also a full race manifold WTF? read his first post he doesnt want to spend MUCH...their manifolds are over 2000 dollars alone.
Also in YOUR LIST for unreal streat car u left out pistons and rods mate..
the T28 isnt a really small turbo though, its what the 200sx runs as standard on its 2L engine. Running low boost i dont see any reason why it should run out of puff.Quote:
just curious poid but wont the smaller turbos run out of puff so to speak by the time you hit about 8k ? (i think this is why james is suggesting it)
obviously the smaller turbos would be good for the lower reving engines.
If you were running 1 bar or over then it may be a different story, however we are talking street turbos on standard internals. The smaller turbo will almost certainly spool up sooner and give better low down torque.
Most Honda turbo guys seem to run huge turbos even for low boost street applications for some reason though
I think the reason is pretty clear as to why, hey Pete... ;)Quote:
Most Honda turbo guys seem to run huge turbos even for low boost street applications for some reason though
whoa relax havok, james is only inputting what he thinks, its what is good for the board, he has alot of experience in this area, and though some dont believe in what he says, he should be heard anyway. I mean his the fastest FWD in vic atm, i think he knows abit about turbos.
I think the main point that he missed was that some people are not after an all out drag machine. His setup is one of the most comprehensive setups i know, have seen, read about.
But in this case, we are talking about a mild power increase, at 9 psi most honda engines double their power output with a proper exhaust and tune. I'd say that at 9psi however that the GT roller is abit big. The 450 roller though i dont like to admit it on my prelude was abit overkill, even though i loved every second of it. I didnt mind full boost hitting at 5k rpms.
Honda people argue that with high revving motors and one of the best flowing heads, that big compressors are the way to go. What isnt being said is that on the street a small turbo gives much more useable power.
Anyways chill out Havok, its only a friendly discussion :)
before one balls gets in on this act, my granny shopping trolley and what i intend on doing to it is spose to stay secret ok binh? thanks bud
There’s reason behind everything, like I said in my first post you don’t require everything but everything helps…. Just like the MSD unit, when you push boost into a high compression engine (stock) you want to make sure you burn all the fuel from a large spark, thus why a spark amplification unit’s are very handy. If the engine requires X amount of fuel I wanta make sure I burn all of it !
As for the GT30xx why do you think I said xx ! ? u can put a gt30xx in a t28 exhaust housing, although most commonly you use a t3, the size of the turbo regardin spool is all to do with the exhaust size ie .53 .82 . 110 the GT30 part is the intake compressor side of the turbo.. will a small turbo on 7psi and a large turbo on 7psi make the same power ? of corse not !!! will the larger turbo put more stress on the engine at the same psi ? no !
Iv used GT30 turbo’s on all my customer cars and most of them all have stock engines, it’s a great sized turbo, yes its expensive but well things are expensive for a reason, I refuse to cut corners in any work I do or recommended. Spool of a turbo is not designed around the size of the compressor but the size of the exhaust wheels and turbo housing, I did not specify these specs and these depends upon the application.
Iv also done back to back testing on many different turbos once you understand turbos you will see when you call turbo t25 t28 t3’s blah blah those figures mean bugger all its comes down to the trim sizes which is all the difference.
Regards James
Oh the reason why most turbo Honda ppl use slightly larger turbo's is
A = traction, were fwd not rwd we can't leave the line fast, boost at 1000rpm would kill us off the line..
B = we have a high compression engine = faster spool....
What works for a Nissan doesn’t mean it will work for a Honda !!
Regards James
Since you have done all this testing, could you post some results as to the differences between running T25's, T28's and GT series turbos (GT25/GT28, GT30 etc) and state the different trims? I would be very interested to see the results at various boost levels
hand over my research !! i can't do that...thats our workshop secrets...
trims turbo sizing and spec's make or break any car....... generally thow you can put a gt30 in a t25 t28 t3 or a t4, the smaller exhaust size gives boost sooner, but less top end power. GT30 turbo's also come from 300hp upto 750hp each application is dependent on what the customer what’s and how far the customer will go in the future etc....
Regards James
Sorry i just re-read this, but do you have your turbo designations around the wrong way, or is it me? The GT30 part of the designation should refer to the exhaust housing not the compressor housing (just like the T3/T4 hybrids...T3 exhaust housing for earlier spool, T4 compressor housing for more power).Quote:
Originally Posted by BLKCRX
This is why i asked why you were using GT30xx turbo's, because GT30's all have a GT30 turbine, the xxbit refers to the compressor its mated to. So when you are saying to put a GT30 on a T28 exhaust housing that is basically a GT2830 (or GT2530) which is what i mentioned as being a good street turbo.
So a bit of confusion (for me anyway) but seems we're on about the same thing after all
I think you guys will benefit by learning to read compressor flow maps.
I find picking a target power range and THEN selecting components to suit makes a much more potent setup.
Why undersize or oversize things?
I agree, though i havent learnt to properly read a compressor map yet i did choose a GT28 because it should match my goals/setup perfectly. If i decide to upgrade, then i will look at which turbo will suit that setup if the current one does not.
Thats the way i like to do things
Another thing you will have to think about is say for eg an S15, they come with a standard T28 bearing turbo.
Now once you yank up the boost and slap in a bigger exhaust, cooler & an SAFC, do you think the owner will now have to rethink about getting a bigger turbo or look to highflow it? Not really. The owner has used what's available and upgraded parts around it to make the most out of what he/she has got. The T28's were used in the S15 because they are efficient (size, flow, quick spool).
Now if you were to build a good street car with the view of low boost, I don't see any need for working out the size of the compressor housing/wheel, and exhaust housing/wheel when you can pretty much say that a T28 in standard trim should easily do the job.
There’s actually lots of ways to read turbo’s and numbers, and the numbers / how to read them changes between seriers.
So when im talking about a GT30, im talking about the core ONLY.
You can machine the core into a t25 t28 t3 or t4 exhaust housing, again all depending on the application, which is why I always use Gt30 cores it’s a great core and produces unbeatable power for stock engines, and even highly modified engines.
For 2.0L engines with large boost you should be looking at the GT40 core, again im not denotation what size exhaust housing or intake housing to use, just the core. As for stock s15 turbo’s there tiny man !! hmmm I totally don’t recommend those. They run out of puff just above vtec, after vtec is where our engines come alive, even more alive with a turbo with lots of puff !!
Anyway back to the topic !! get your self a custom kit, don’t listen to internet mechanics who think they know everything talk to workshops that have results, and facts n figures behind there reasoning, of course different workshops have different theories but that’s life.
In summary thow if you want to go turbo, I highly recommend it, but I highly recommend you save much more money, or you will be without a car or in debt.
Regards James
You can build a good kit based on$5000. Don't get ripped off by "Actual" mechanics as they need to have their overheads paid. You can put together a pretty decent kit but you will need to eventually have it towed to a workshop for a dyno tune.
Best bet is to call a few workshops for prices and what is in their kits. Based around this you will know what parts are being used. Most people here on the forums are to give advice from either personal or professional experience and some are here to make sales. Just listen to the advice, note it down and then ask the pros for some more advice.
S15 turbo's are efficient to flow around 220rwkw.
Would be hell responsive on a little high compression 1.8L motor IMO.
Couldnt have said it better myself :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by poweredbyhonda
Collect all the advice you can, do as much research as you can and learn all you can about what you are doing. Then you are ready to piece together your own kit, which can use quality parts, be reliable and you dont need to sell a kidney to finance it.
hmmm piece together my own kit sounds like a good idea
i was under the assumption that getting the bits as a kit would be better as perhaps the parts are more compatable
anyways thanks for the info guys
For instance with AVO, you're pretty much getting everything that should basically bolt straight on (except for the oil lines). The only thing with a peice together is that you will have to get custom piping which is better as you can choose to go stainless rather than the standard mild steel most kits use. The piping depends on what kind of turbo, cooler size and the positioning of it all.
Best bet is to find a place that can fit the parts you have sourced and get them to do all the welding.
If you were not planning to do all this yourself, you should find a workshop you can trust so that they will fit all the parts you have supplied to save you from towing place to place. Be sure to choose a good fueling/tuning system.
Someone who I have gained some trust in would be Adrian from RazzTech 93593411. He's a good welder and is there to do a good job at a reasonable price.
Shop around cause there are heaps of good parts flying around.
the main problem with the kits is normally fuel management, otherwise most tend to work quite well for what they are. A good example of this is the Greddy kit, the parts are quite good (smallish turbo etc, but its a low boost kit) but the fuel management is a blue-box that just basically dumps tons of fuel in to prevent detonation. (though the new kits use an e-manage instead i believe? better, but still not great)
Not really my idea of a good way to manage things :)