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I've had my 04 Euro for over a year now, left it stock except for sound system. Love it heaps, but now looking to put some more horses under the hood. :)
I'm sure its covered already somewhere, but thought I'd raise it -- what's best value mod(s) for the CL9's K24A2 engine?
http://www.importtuner.com/powerpage...tsx/index.html
Looks like these folks say CAI is the way to go. Then headers and ECU? ANy specifc order work better?
Would be great to hear it from those who've done one,or all 3..
tks
1. COLD AIR INTAKE
2. HEADERS
3. HI FLOW CAT
4. EXHAUST
5. ECU + TUNE
6. TURBO / SUPERCHARGER
Then you got minor mods to increase it by 1 or 2 such as TB Coolant Bypass ect ect.
7. Sell car and buy evo! :cool:
But seriously, I felt the light weight flywheel made the biggest difference. CAI's sound great, not too much difference though. Headers make a decent gain, but never been in a CL9 with them.
Best to have cai, headers and catback together for any gains. Something like a haltech ecu + tune by itself can get you more gains with your car stock and then more with the bolt ons.
LOLOLOL I was about to get an Evo 7 but then wasn't allowed to sell the car :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Type R Positive
I have Racing headers in mine and they certainly make a big difference!
why were you not allowed to sell your own car?Quote:
Originally Posted by MingZai
lmao it's my own car but under parents business name and they wish to leave the car for my little sister :P as we owned it first hand then purchased by me :P
Op , you mean a better powerband/ more useable torque right ?
Because " hp" generally won't make your car faster. Most mods mentioned will only shift the powerband up a give you a few hp more up top but lose hp lower down. This , combined with the extra noise gives a false indication of speed :0)
If you are truly after more power , look at altering gearing or turbo/supercharging. Anything else on a euro appears to be a waste of time
By "lose power lower down" do you mean like under 3000rpm? Coz I can't see any loss of power other than that on the graph:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
http://image.importtuner.com/f/27104...final_dyno.jpg
For those who didn't read the whole article:
Blue - baseline
Red - CAI
Green - Headers
Orange - ECU Reflash
I was about to say that... the ECU reflash fixes that band and that's what you should get.
TBH I don't fully agree with bennjamin because the DC5R vs the Euro R there isn't a BIG difference in track performance wise.
If your car is modded out fine even without the turbo / supercharger you can get some good times.
It's just that you need a lot of time and money to make sure everything is perfect and most people just rather buy another car and waste less money.
ECU reflash + weight loss is quite important if you want a fast car and it's not just about boosting the hp up like bennjamin said. If your tracking, getting good coilovers and sway bars ect ect
is also needed to handle that extra power or torque.
Even if you don't track your car, I reckon you would still notice improvement in acceleration by applying these mods. So I don't think they're a "waste of time" at all.
5.06 or 5.46 final drive (provided its manual) is best bang for buck mod to make your car faster =]
Lightened flywheel and lower final drive will do wonders.Otherwise headers are best bolt on value.
Ok noobish question, what's a final drive? Clutch or gearbox upgrade?
Gear box mod. Will a ep3r final drive work
Diff.But you do have to split the gearbox to access the diff.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonysalib
If you are basing it on Best Motoring's racing around the track, don't. Their racing is biased based on the driver of the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by MingZai
Before you even start on the more expensive mods, take the car to the track first to see which area needs to be improved. Usually it is the driver that requires the most mods before even being able to max out the car on track.Quote:
Originally Posted by MingZai
Then tyres. Need good tyres!Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
Agreed but he didn't say he wanted to track it
And you have a 3 series too? HahaQuote:
Originally Posted by MingZai
Let me just say that yes the euro has a very potent chassis and the engine is somewhat potent.. but the fact is you will need to dump a large amount of money into it, to get it anywhere near 'fast'..
getting intake/exhaust/tune/cams/forced induction/installation with the minimal amount of supporting mods (ie springs, upgraded brake pads and tyres) would probably cost 10-15k.. and that's the price you'd pay to get about 270-320whp, which is quite respectable for a euro (and quite unique!), but in the scene of jap cars.. its not really going to keep up with other turbo cars that have had maybe 4-5 grand put in it.
so what i'm basically pointing at is that for the same amount of money (if you spend it wisely!) you can go out and buy a built nissan/toyo for 10-15k which would not only be probably faster, it would cause less headaches and RWD would also be a high point. oh and also you'd be able to keep your euro on the road (reliability)
but on the other hand, if you love your euro so much, or want to do something that is unique, or enjoy building a car.. then by all means go ahead (i am also quite hyped for a member here who is supercharging his euro, and am looking forward to see how his car goes, so im no hater) :)
just throwing out the other options.. if you want to do only intake/exhaust, well.. your euro is still going to be slow, but then again it depends what you want to achieve out of your mods ;)
my 2c
yeha man just go for stance haha
YOu might be on to something..lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Type R Positive
Supercharger? Dont see myself going there..I'm not looking to track the car. Not yet at least :)
Looks like the CL9 responds well to CAI mods, might be a place to start. Just a bit concerned about loss below the 3,000rpm range... but what does a 3hp loss feel like?
Anywwhere like having the AC on?
Flywheel is the single best thing you can do for straight line performance in the Euro, as others have said. Where are you located? I have a JDM DC5R flywheel for sale
1. Performance header
2. High flow Cat
3. CAI
4. Lightened pulley
5. Ecu to make car run leaner
Lol what does 3hp feel like. It feels like u cant go any where.
You dont measure how fast a car can go by hp you look at the torque curve.
A cai shifts the curves up to higher rpm therefore decreasing acelleration from the bottom end but gaining it at the top end. Most mods mentioned do this.
Even if you have a flywheel that is lightened it does nothing to the torque curve but it gets you to the higher revs quicker therefore better acelleration.
If you had 1000000hp and no torque(impossible but an example) you would go nowhere as the torque is needed.
Torque equals pulling power without it you may aswell just ride a bicycle.
therefore get a diesel :P
Not all CAI loses bottom end, take ct-e icebox cr example.Quote:
Originally Posted by marquee
Header +cat will shift te entire ta/hp line up anyway.
And about lightened flywheel and pulley, those things reduce driveline loss, because less torque/power is needed to.move them. Same concept as lightened alloywheels
Proof of above statement ?
It's all abit far fetched guys. Even with tuning - short of turbo or supercharging , you are kidding yourself that cai/header/exhaust will do anything on a euro. I've witnessed before/after numbers - 10hp peak gain does nothing to real world performance at the track or 1/4 mile.
Light weight flywheel or other parts is a waste on such a heavy car.
Anyway , if you want more noise and alittle more oomph , please do the usual mods. Just don't expect it ( and please
Don't SAY) that your car is actually any better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
One of our member's (NPcan) euro was pulling 147 atw with IHE and tuning. Then there's all the members from TSX forums that would disagree with you.
Considering stock CL9 makes 110 kw atw, Npcan's euro makes 33.6% increase over stock... Not bad for just bolt ons and piggyback don't you agree?
CL9 at 1300 odd kg's is actually pretty light given its size and features, it's within 100kg of a dc5r, with more torque from the k24 to boot.
Re: lightened Pulley + flywheel. That's just.simple.physics. Rotating mass is the key.
Also, "real world" performance is a relative term. Hell, just by adjusting the CL9's Drive by wire setting will make a night/day difference to daily driving and perceived performance.
Basically what i got fron this is if u do it in a euro your a nut but any other car will add hp bolt on mods on any car will make it better as it removes all the restrictions in the design from a manufacturerQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
euro stock wieght is more like 1400kg....
friend weighed his euro 06 sport with coils, rims, and full tank... 1410kg....
no driver....
my dc5r with coils. IHE, rims, etc. stripped boot but still rear seats and interior and a 1/2 tank of fuel weighed 1140kg..
the extra torque gained by 400cc does not offset that weight diff of 270kg......
u can shed some kgs by changing front seats, etc..... but my car cl9 still weighs 1320kg with full tank and no driver...........
it's a big handicap to catch up to a dc5r with minor mods.....
all this talk about changing torque & power curves by changing headers is irrelevant if you do not specify whether you are using a 4-2-1 design or a 4-1 design. On a stock/mild tune motor, a 4-2-1 will actually see a real world difference, as the extra torque gained thru the mid range will make an improvement, as opposed to running a 4-1 design that only gives you number bragging rights by loosing mid range torque and adding only a few hp in the top end.
only on a motor that has had head work ie: cams, cam gears, port/polish, intake manifold, possibly valves will a 4-1 be more beneficial than a 4-2-1 design as the head work will shift the power/torque curves to where the most power/torque is desired by the person paying the money for the build
Official ADR recorded weight is 1390kg for the CL9, so you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by wuism
Perhaps I should've tried to make the point with a different car, all I tried to say is that CL9 wasn't as heavy as some people tend to think. Hell a MK 5 GTI weighs 1350kg.
I dont disagree the weight is a factor. But as our car has heavier replacable items ie front seats and bonnet it could quite easily come down alot more then another car im not saying its going to be lighter then one however could be comparable for sureQuote:
Originally Posted by wuism
Tbh... Whatever u can remove in a euro, u could do on a GTI. Sure euro front seats are heavy, but so are most new cars nowadays with airbags in the seats. The euro was not made with racing in mind unless u have a euro r which is lighter than the cl9 to begin with. Honda didn't use heavier steel compared with other manufactures.....
Bottom line, if u want ur euro to compete with dc5r etc, be prepared to lose some luxuries (comfy seats, vsa, cruise control etc) and part way with some dollars....
What was NPcan's stock dyno? I only see a value of 122kW on a Dyno Dynamics but that was with topspeed headers, Injen CAI and Haltech interceptor. He then dyno'd 143kW with WeaponR and Fujitsubo exhaust on a Dynapack hub dyno, which gives higher readings compared to a Dyno Dynamics dyno. So you can't compare the 143kW value to a stock 110kW achieved by another car on another dyno since the dyno & car are different and also because of the tiny fact that the Dynapack has lower loss through the wheels (since there is no wheel attached!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredoops
Features work against you when racing in a straight line or on track as these add weight. CL9 is also 1395kg for the base model and 1465kg for the luxury too. It is a fat car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredoops
Great for acceleration in mid range, but not at the top end which is where you are usually at when doing a 1/4 mile or on track. If on the street where it is more about midrange, driving to beat a DC5R will get your car impounded anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredoops
This one is a placebo effect, since the same perceived performance can be achieved by adjusting your foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredoops
There is more to a car's performance if cornering aggressively. The centre of gravity and the wheel track of the car matters too, which is why on track, the MK5 GTI catches up to the Euro in the corners very quickly, while the Euro pulls away a bit on the straight (this was my Euro with Tein Flex vs a totally stock Mk 5 GTI). I was totally whipped by a stock GTI...... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredoops
I don't doubt GTi is quicker... But there's a lot of variables to that, tyres, rims, in gear acceleration etcQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
CL9 wasn't completely hopeless on the track, else the Repsol Honda team wouldntve used the CL9 as the donor car for their BTCc team a few years back wen everyone else was using DC5's
Anyway, back to topic... Any frankensteins here?
http://www.hybrid-racing.com/tech/k2...-engine-build/
Yes... Frank here...Stock k24 block with k20 head off fd2r...
What can you rev it to wuism. Thats what i hate with my current setup revs out to quick 8000 would be much better but most dynos ive read with k24 stock internals loose power at 7000
are k20 type r cams a straight drop in? any performance increase in that?
Yer straigh drop in mate all k series cams fit. Intake cam will be good not to sure abour dxhaust cam thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by unl3a5h
I rev to 8300 rpm.
I have Toda balancer killer kit. Else I only goto 7800 rpm
Or I could throw out the 12" sub in the boot.. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by wuism
Despite being modest gains there's still real, measurable gains to be made from these "reasonably priced" bolt ons i think. The comments from those guys at least made me a bit hopeful..
"Our ultimate test phase was established in a third gear run which is known by any TSX owner to come off as sluggish when coasting on the road and abruptly applying the gas. The newfound power was definitely noticeable as third gear now pushed us back into the seats and the vehicle felt as if the TSX was equipped with a race transmission" :cool:
HOndata's work would aslso support that claim
http://www.hondata.com/tuning_k24a2_tsx_engine.html
http://www.hondata.com/images/tsxtun...-rflsh-sml.gif
Not sure if you guys remember all the bullshit that went along with the hondata reflash, but something I'd stay clear of if it was my car...
Has anyone here run their euro , stock or "modded" down the 1/4 ? Times ? What about track times guys ? I keep reading that these mods do heaps to your cars , and TSX owners dont lie lol.
haha! I see plenty of 15's lol! But we are on a Honda forum! Vtec stickers are worth 10fwkw's alone! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
Yeah - problem is a dead standard car does the same times. People need to realize peak HP is not indicative of performance , or performance gained.Quote:
Originally Posted by Type R Positive
Wow, reflash does the shiiiet. Need one!Quote:
Originally Posted by tonysalib
Haven't been done 1/4 mile yet but only have a time at barbagello short track....
59.7 sec which is still slower than my DC5R of 58.1 sec....
Only managed 8 hot laps in that night... Need more time...
Quote:
Originally Posted by adis
Do your research first........Quote:
Originally Posted by Type R Positive
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuism
Let us all know how you go - need some times from the euro boys ! Good luck
Me and marquee will try HT' tuning solution when it come out. Except imma try to hypermill itQuote:
Originally Posted by Type R Positive
SOunds like a challenge on.. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
Makes me think, any record of who's Euro was fastest on a 1/4 mile, or had most hps in the history of Ozhonda? And got the proof to show it..
CUrious to see what type of config they'd be on
A friend of mine ran his manual euro at Calder park, only mod was cai and did 15-16 secs.
Sorry to ask a newbie question, how will these mod affect fuel comsumption? Daily drive & track?
It gets worse for daily.Quote:
Originally Posted by rambohung
For track.. It's always bad
Measured on circuit before, a stock CL9 manual does about 29 L/100km on the track for the day. Haha.
Thanks for the input all. After some thinking I went with the CT icebox.. and got one shipped pretty fast from heeltoe.
GOtta say, i was a bit worried abt taking the bumper off at first, but i found a youtube video which helped.
Thought I'd share a few photos which might help those who want to do the same.
BUmper off. The instructions tell you where the clips are
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/803/20111203184218.jpg
The stock resonator to take out. Wasnt easy..! Unclipping the mudguard helped wiggle out the intake pipe which is connected inside the engine bay
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5...241800x600.jpg
The icebox's inlet horn now on. Not very pretty, i know
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/1...811800x600.jpg
The stock inlet pipe, now connected to icebox lid. This was a pain to put on.. really a 2 person job.
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3...517800x600.jpg
2 metal spacers/fasteners thingo that I had to take out so the icebox lid could actually screw down (thanks to aaronng for the tip). I've read a lot of ppl had the same issue securing the lid on for a tight seal.
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4...007800x600.jpg
And at last...final result.WIth the CT Engineering decal I stuck on the lid.. that itself added an extra 5hp..lol.
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4...839800x600.jpg
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9...918800x600.jpg
Hope this is helpful. My take on the results in a next post
good stuff :). eager for ur feedback on it. Ill get mine once im back in country. you used the supplied filter right?
i read something about some mods cancelling out your CRUISE CONTROL and VSA?
Is this true?
Pretty sure any ECU upgrade will result in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftvin
kpro does thisQuote:
Originally Posted by swiftvin
Depending on budget, I still reckon a low boost supercharger kit is the way to go. Unless there's a low boost turbo kit around. Anything more than 200kw is too much for a fwd imo.
Best horsepower mods and I've almost tried them all:
1. Headers + High flow cat (Toda/J's racing/Maximworks)
2. ECU retune (Greddy E-manage, Haltech Interceptor, Hondata)
3. Intake (Airbox/CAI) - Mugen, Injen, J's Racing, Gruppe M
4. Lightweight flywheel - Best engine response mod if you have a manual
5. Lightweight pulleys - Helps the engine rev much faster and smoother
6. Lightweight wheels - Improved acceleration off the mark and braking
7. Supercharger - very difficult to install without ECU issues in Australia (Comptech sells a supercharger kit in the US)
8. Turbocharger - even harder than supercharging, custom kit required
9. Exhaust - only useful with headers installed, minimal gain in hp
if you have the money get a k20 head and whack it on :) and plus intake , headers, exhaust and tune it and if u have more money you can throw
in a turbo or a supercharger :) put it all depends on how much money your willing to spend !
Hey Bud,
these are the mods ive done so far (in order of which ive done them and going to do)
Done:
1.CAI
2.Hi Flow Exhaust
3.Stage 2 exedy 3 puk Ceramic racing Clutch
4.Exedy Chromoly Lightened Flywheel (4kg)
5.RBC Intake Manifold
6.Dc Sports Headers
Being done in the next month:
7. 50 Degree VTC Camgear
8. Hondata FlashPro + tune
Future mods:
9. Camshafts + supporting mods
10. High comp pistons, maybe 12.5:1?
eur011, you aiming for power or torque. A lot of people think that power is everything, but when they lose torque (which matters more low down), they reckon they've gone backwards. That said, most of your mods should see benifits to both, other than perhaps RBC which is said to increase power high end but sacrifice low down.
Ive tried to balance out everything, rbc, cai > lightened fly wheel and 4-2-1 headers. i want a good all rounder. hopefully after my flashpro comes in and tune my power band will be smoother. atm car is lacking in bot-mid range torque. i will post up a dyno b4 and after once done.,
Selling my Weapon R Headers...
What cams were you looking at though? When all said and done, the main influence on a NA car's power/torque band and delivery are the cams. You can sort of cover the loss of bottom end torque with a good tuner/ecu but when you're going big cams, all civility is gone out the window [Idle, Low End, Economy, etc]. Obviously it's all relative =PQuote:
Originally Posted by eur011
One question to ask yourselves though... Is it worth taking your Euro past simple bolt-ons and a tune? Unless you treasure your Euro and want to make it into something big, keep it strictly at that step, buy the car you really want to get big performance out of. Not to put a damper on it or what not and I know Euro's have potential but you gotta go pretty hardcore to get it really shifting.
hahaha i asked that question to my self when i started to mod it, and yes i will be going all out :), not 100% sure on cams as of yet. still doing research. looking to do upgrades on the gearbox > maybe an lsd, def gonna change my 1st and 2nd gear ratios and final drive (been looking into getting dc5r 1st and 2nd) then a spoon final. had my fun with a boosted car, wanna try get a n/a going. i like civic, integras, skylines, evo's, 180sx etc etc, but every1 does those cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadAngel