Go racing in 2012

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12-12-2011, 09:27 AM
jdm_b16a

Go racing in 2012

Anyone interested in getting into serious State competition:

"ED Civic Improved Production"

http://i43.tinypic.com/ofdmyv.jpg

"1998 JDM Type R engine/gearbox Kaaz LSD DMS 50mm suspension all the best bolt on bits from the US Motec ECU and MDL dash ATL FIA fuel cell big brake upgrade Project U pads Fabraications cage, L/Book Nov 2011, 6/949 wheels AO48'R new build, front and rear wings very light and very quick under 2 litre"

http://i39.tinypic.com/sy035w.jpg

www.my105.com/6288

http://i41.tinypic.com/14ukrqs.jpg

I'm posting this FYI. I have no connection with the car or the seller.

Peter
12-12-2011, 01:13 PM
markismaximus

wow 26k....
12-12-2011, 03:11 PM
jdm_b16a

Quote:

Originally Posted by markismaximus

wow 26k....

You could build it for much less than that but that's my opinion. The advantage here is that all the hard work is done but if you gave yourself 12 months, you could come up with something just as quick if not quicker.

I'm not saying this is not worth the asking price as there may be things that we can't see in the photos.

Peter
12-12-2011, 05:53 PM
markismaximus

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm_b16a

You could build it for much less than that but that's my opinion.

Peter

I agree, would be cheaper doing it oneself
13-12-2011, 10:09 AM
stndrd

Not always. Add things up. Cage would be minimum of 4k, motec is another 3k+, engine package is 5k+ fitting. Then take into account everything else and labour/tuning fees on top. There could be another 5k in suspension and brakes for all we know....
13-12-2011, 10:36 AM
markismaximus

Quote:

Originally Posted by stndrd

Not always. Add things up. Cage would be minimum of 4k, motec is another 3k+, engine package is 5k+ fitting. Then take into account everything else and labour/tuning fees on top. There could be another 5k in suspension and brakes for all we know....

if you read my post I said doing the labour yourself. So that will cost $0
13-12-2011, 11:38 AM
jdm_b16a

Quote:

Originally Posted by stndrd

Not always. Add things up. Cage would be minimum of 4k, motec is another 3k+, engine package is 5k+ fitting. Then take into account everything else and labour/tuning fees on top. There could be another 5k in suspension and brakes for all we know....

Again, as I said, costs depend on a variety of factors.

Not wanting to get into an argument about this (as it is a contentious issue) but I posted up the info to stimulate healthy discussion on the old question of "How much does it cost to get into motorsport?".

For example, you suggest a minimum of 4K for a cage. Depends really and I know cage regulations have changed for next year at least for CAMS sanctioned events. But that's more than twice what I paid for mine a few years ago.

You don't have to use a MOTEC and an engine package can be as cheap as you want. Engine power = $$$$$; the more $$$$ the more power, the closer to the front you are. Options include K power, a B20 franky, or the perennial B16A. I've seen Euro K24s on eBay cheapas.

Fitting - well, as Mark said, I'd do all the work myself. You can pickup an ED chassis for $1K or less. I got a spare for $0 because someone wanted to clear their garage out; bought another for $300.

Do the stripping, clean and paint yourself. Get cage fitted. Do suspension, fit engine, seat and other safety devices. I'd do it for less than $12K and be reasonably competitive.

I encourage constructive discussion of this topic by anyone, regardless of if you have competed or not.

Let's hear what others have to say.

Peter
13-12-2011, 11:50 AM
nigs

Damn that would be fun to drive.
Nice car.
13-12-2011, 08:33 PM
stndrd

I understand that you could build one for cheaper, but mark made the comment of "26k wow". For this particular car that you have posted, 26k is understandable.

You could build an EF/EG with a B16/18/20 that will be competitive for less than that. But it all depends on if you want to go for quality parts that you know will not fail you or if you want to keep it cheap cheap just to get it on the track. I have spent a fair amount on my EG and personally I am still not happy with it even tho I have gone down the path of "quality over quantity" (and this includes me doing all the labour myself as a qualified mechanic), tho I know alot of people out there would go 2nd best just so that they can get out there and go fast.

If you look at what this guy has fitted to his EF that he is now selling, he has gone for "the best of the best". Too many people out there would not fit Drummond Motorsport coilovers, MoTec ECU etc to their car as they think they can go just as fast for less. But in the end, if you don't fit top tier parts to a fully fledged, competitive race car, you will not be at the pointy end of your class
14-12-2011, 06:28 AM
jdm_b16a

Quote:

Originally Posted by stndrd

I understand that you could build one for cheaper, but mark made the comment of "26k wow". For this particular car that you have posted, 26k is understandable.

Agreed. Quality components cost money but there are always alternatives that cost less and achieve the same result.

It's all a question of degrees. How much do you have to spend to go a sec faster. I've heard people put up figures of $10,000. This may or may not be true, but the closer you are to the pointy end the truer that figure becomes. It begs the question: "Do you want to win or just compete?" I've heard competitors quote figures around $100K to build and compete in a front running car for a season. I suppose I've never been THAT competitive but I do understand there are people out there who believe winning is everything! Good luck to them.

I wonder how much was spent to build that car? It looks like it hasn't even run in anger given it is logbooked 2011.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stndrd

You could build an EF/EG with a B16/18/20 that will be competitive for less than that. But it all depends on if you want to go for quality parts that you know will not fail you or if you want to keep it cheap cheap just to get it on the track.

Disagree. You equate "cheap" parts with automatic failure. In my own experience that is not true. Possible but not unequivocally true. Conversely, expensive doesn't necessarily mean quality. Take for example, a front strut brace. You could buy a $50 eBay special or spend $300 on a SPOON or MUGEN bar - both will do the job. I ran for a year, completed every practice, qualifying and race for every meeting I attended (which was the complete season). Yes, I was at the rear of the field. I do remember one year one guy near the front lost 2-3 engines - engines built by a specialist competition engine builder at a cost of more than my complete car. $$ does not guarantee longevity. I suppose it all comes down to how hard you are on the equipment. I know I drove my car as hard as I could!

Quote:

Originally Posted by stndrd

I have spent a fair amount on my EG and personally I am still not happy with it even tho I have gone down the path of "quality over quantity" (and this includes me doing all the labour myself as a qualified mechanic), tho I know alot of people out there would go 2nd best just so that they can get out there and go fast.

I'm still not sure your notion of "second best" is valid. Anything can break, whether it costs $100 or $1000.

But don't get me wrong. This is a nice looking car. But how much better is it with say the MOTEC and dash (which probably has a logger), over a standard cluster, shift light, and oil/water guages? There's a significant saving there and both cars would be just as quick given everything else being equal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stndrd

If you look at what this guy has fitted to his EF that he is now selling, he has gone for "the best of the best". Too many people out there would not fit Drummond Motorsport coilovers, MoTec ECU etc to their car as they think they can go just as fast for less. But in the end, if you don't fit top tier parts to a fully fledged, competitive race car, you will not be at the pointy end of your class

Strongly disagree with you here. Your's is not a valid conclusion drawn from the points you made. It's almost like you're trying to justify spending all that money when doing so, in my opinion, does not mean you will be at the pointy end. There are other factors. You can go quicker by fitting a full bushing kit to major components (suspension, sway bars, steering etc) than by simply spending money to upgrade to bigger sway bars, bigger brakes and coilovers. Also brake pads and tyres can be the same but one might be quicker if setup differently. Ditto, the exhaust. You could build one yourself or spend a couple thou and have one made for you. Alternatively you could buy one of the brand name, super-spec JDM titanium systems that sell for laughable $$$.

The ED is still a nice car, no question.

Peter
14-12-2011, 10:15 PM
Red_EG4

oh snap that's in my neighbourhood, I had no idea such a thing would be in Bendigo!
14-12-2011, 10:29 PM
GSi_PSi

Bit pricey, could do a jdm k20a engine for that kind of $$$ still in the U2L class and much more competitive with 6-speed and factory 158kw...
whats the rules with improved production though regarding engine swaps
15-12-2011, 08:53 AM
nigs

One would assume "improved production" would not allow engine swaps.
15-12-2011, 10:22 AM
Benson

Quote:

Originally Posted by nigs

One would assume "improved production" would not allow engine swaps.

Yeah it does allow engine swaps. As long it under the 2l capacity and carry a small weight penalty.

Some of the improved productions rules are a little grey
15-12-2011, 02:05 PM
nigs

Ah, weight penalty
18-12-2011, 11:39 AM
vtecing

Does anyone know what times this car is doing? Would have thought that would be the main selling point
18-12-2011, 01:24 PM
jdm_b16a

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSi_PSi

Bit pricey, could do a jdm k20a engine for that kind of $$$ still in the U2L class and much more competitive with 6-speed and factory 158kw...
whats the rules with improved production though regarding engine swaps

Same manufacturer as body is OK. Under 2 Litres would be K20A. There are already some running in NSW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nigs

One would assume "improved production" would not allow engine swaps.

Engine swaps no problem as long as you stay with the same manufacturer as noted by Benson. You have to abide by a minimum weight though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtecing

Does anyone know what times this car is doing? Would have thought that would be the main selling point

Ad says its a Nov 2011 logbook so it may not have seen the track yet. No one registered to compete in Victoria by that name for 2011. The "18B" suggests it may have been built to compete in the 6 Hour Relay in Victoria but I'd say it hasn't been run yet.

(Update): Did a bit of a search and Andrew Howell belongs to the Geelong (or Gippsland) Car Club. He ran the 6 Hour Regularity Trial, was 30th fastest out of 252 cars at Phillip Island. Fastest car was a VY Commodore at 1:52.6. Slowest was a VK Commodore at 2:50.8. This car ran a 1:58.8 and was part of the winning team. He has owned a couple of different Civics and it looks like he sold his old 1973 one and built this, but may have decided to get out of racing.

You could always ring the guy and ask him but, speed isn't everything. If it ran the 6 Hour it would also have to be very reliable too. I've done a few of these and they really show up the under-prepared and over-stressed cars!

Peter
26-01-2012, 07:57 PM
Fraser

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benson

Yeah it does allow engine swaps. As long it under the 2l capacity and carry a small weight penalty.

Some of the improved productions rules are a little grey

Oh for a moment I thought you said "gay"so I was going to agree.

I would always prefer to buy someone else's build if its done right,if effort and money has already been put in and well sorted they are usually always bargains in the long run.
26-01-2012, 08:02 PM
Fraser

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm_b16a

You could build it for much less than that but that's my opinion. The advantage here is that all the hard work is done but if you gave yourself 12 months, you could come up with something just as quick if not quicker.

I'm not saying this is not worth the asking price as there may be things that we can't see in the photos.

Peter

What does12 months labour amount to ?More than the asking price methinks.
26-01-2012, 08:16 PM
trism

I think its all relative. To people like us who live and breath Hondas, and know everything about them, where to get all the good stuff for cheap, yeah, im sure we could build something just as competitive for a lot less. Especially given the amount of people that DIY.

However, get somebody who isnt so much into this scene, theyre gonna go for all the big brand name stuff, get other people to do all the work, and just write out cheques for it.
26-01-2012, 09:25 PM
Fraser

Quote:

Originally Posted by trism

I think its all relative. To people like us who live and breath Hondas, and know everything about them, where to get all the good stuff for cheap, yeah, im sure we could build something just as competitive for a lot less. Especially given the amount of people that DIY.

However, get somebody who isnt so much into this scene, theyre gonna go for all the big brand name stuff, get other people to do all the work, and just write out cheques for it.

You are missing the point .The car is already built so the sum of parts and time are already there, even with diy one has to take into consideration the time.
For an example I can earn more per hour doing my job so it would be cheaper for me to pay someone to do the build .The labour content is never ever free really.
And Mr Howell has been involved with building and racing Hondas longer than the average age of Ozhonda members.It would be interesting if someone was doing a racecar build took the time to document all the costs even time.We will always get differing opinions and I suppose I'm voicing mine,through experience though.