Dart B18c supercharged with NEW dyno graphs

Hi Guys
I have finally had my race car tuned

i have come to the end of my knowledge and would appreciate some help to optimize my current set to increase the power figures

My specs are
dart b18c Block
standard stroke
84 mm wiesco pistons
cr 12.3 ?? ( compression test 225 PSI each cylinder)
eagle rods and crank
full head of ferrea
exhaust valves 1 mm over size
Head B16 Jhh Ported
skunk2 spec 2 cams set to skunk2 cam specs
toda cam gears
Jackson racing supercharger 7 to 8 psi
Aqua mist water injection using middle nozzle supplied with kit ( triggered at vtec)ignition timing 26 degree to 28 advanced
toda extractors
buddy club spec 4 exhaust

My thoughts on the areas I feel my need some attention but hoping for some input to guide me<<<<<

cams need to be dialed in better for the supercharger
over or under water injection
add methanol to water injection


I am hoping some knowledge can be pass on my way:honda::thumbsup:




[IMG]http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...001/th_PSI.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...1/th_Lamda.jpg[/IMG]


NEW DYNO RUNS

http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...h_IMG_0003.jpg

http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...h_IMG_0002.jpg




These runs are after fixing the exhaust and changing the supercharger pulley size and increasing the water meth injection

What is with the big drop in PSI at around 6400rpm?

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Originally Posted by mooshie

What is with the big drop in PSI at around 6400rpm?

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vtec switched to high lobe of cam, it s around 1 to 2 PSI

Power seams very low, especially for a built engine. Why is the CR so high for a boosted application? Have you considered running on e85? I dont know much about Jackson racing supercharger's but cant you swap out the pully to increase boost?

Maybe get it retuned/ looked at by someone who knows what they're on about. Toda_au has made more power from a standard b18c7 SC, maybe get in contact with him.

I made 162.8 on a stock b18cr.... Only toda cam gears, toda headers, toda flywheel. And some horrendous press bent cat back

And genuine Honda air filter/intake :D on 7psi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by u mad?

Power seams very low, especially for a built engine. Why is the CR so high for a boosted application? Have you considered running on e85? I dont know much about Jackson racing supercharger's but cant you swap out the pully to increase boost?

Maybe get it retuned/ looked at by someone who knows what they're on about. Toda_au has made more power from a standard b18c7 SC, maybe get in contact with him.

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Higher CR usually yields more power but also more lag with a turbo, so maybe it's irrelevant with a SC because the belt isnt driven by the exhaust?

But I was kinda expecting 180+ kw from the build specs, dyno variances aside. How big is the BC spec 4 exhaust? 60mm?

Exhaust seems to be fine size wise. No cat.. I drive car to track so e85 not an option yet. Those 180 + power figures would be nice.

All ready running the bigger crank pully So no more boost
I'm scratching my head to know where to find 20 kw

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dart

I drive car to track so e85 not an option yet. Those 180 + power figures would be nice.

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You could always carry some jerry cans with you to the track, i dailyed with E85 for ages with no issues with finding fuel.

IMO your cams are too big for a supercharged setup, standard cams should make more power, if your tuner can set them.

Not uncommon with the crap intake manifold setup these kits have,you are saying EAGLE Crank and rods is this a stroker setup? and what Skunk2 cams tuner 2 or Pro2

damn, that this is built aswell, i wonder how much power if it was a turbo setup

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Originally Posted by ALLMTR996

Not uncommon with the crap intake manifold setup these kits have,you are saying EAGLE Crank and rods is this a stroker setup? and what Skunk2 cams tuner 2 or Pro2

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No extra stroke just increase in bore size.
Skunk pro2 cams

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Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

You could always carry some jerry cans with you to the track, i dailyed with E85 for ages with no issues with finding fuel.

IMO your cams are too big for a supercharged setup, standard cams should make more power, if your tuner can set them.

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Cams being to big . That I'm unsure about . Im thinking The fast ramp of the skunk cams should be ok for supercharger. If there was to much over lap I would lose lots of boost. Or may be my boost drop is cause there is to much over lap on cams....?????

Pro2 take a very long time to degree and you have to be SPOT ON with them and the fact you have a 1mm oversize exhaust valve when Skunk2 tell you DO NOT USE OVERSIZE VALVES with these cams.

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Originally Posted by ALLMTR996

Pro2 take a very long time to degree and you have to be SPOT ON with them and the fact you have a 1mm oversize exhaust valve when Skunk2 tell you DO NOT USE OVERSIZE VALVES with these cams.

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I did check that cams had been degreed and figures look right ( though I could of stuffed up checkng) and the reason for no oversized valves is piston to valve clearance and I must have enough clearance ... may be the brand of piston ..wiesco ... No clearance issue.

If you have valve to valve clearence the cams are degreed incorrectly, piston to valve is not really a problem with the PRO2 cams,the dart block you used the STD deck one or is it the raised deck block

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ALLMTR996

If you have valve to valve clearence the cams are degreed incorrectly, piston to valve is not really a problem with the PRO2 cams,the dart block you used the STD deck one or is it the raised deck block

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Only exhaust valves are 1mm oversize so maybe thats ok and block is standard height

Found these specs which is a guide for cr and psi compression test. So I would think
For the size of my cams my cr is correct and my thoughts of cams being dregeed incorrectly may be wrong..

CR Std Fast
Road Rally Race
7 123 117 111 105
8 146 139 132 124
9 171 162 153 145
10 196 186 176 166
11 221 210 199 188
12 248 235 223 211
13 271 261 248 234

Are the exhaust ports also heavily ported to go with the oversized ex valve?

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Originally Posted by TODA AU

Are the exhaust ports also heavily ported to go with the oversized ex valve?

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I am unsure, ???

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Originally Posted by TODA AU

Are the exhaust ports also heavily ported to go with the oversized ex valve?

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But the cyl head guys think they need to flow as much or more than the intake its supercharged,how many times have we talked about this even posted up telling people to be very careful who does there cyl heads for them make sure they know how a Vtec Honda engine works.

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Originally Posted by Dart

I am unsure, ???

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You need to find out.

How much vacuum does this engine have at idle ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ALLMTR996

But the cyl head guys think they need to flow as much or more than the intake its supercharged,how many times have we talked about this even posted up telling people to be very careful who does there cyl heads for them make sure they know how a Vtec Honda engine works.

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Like a broken record, lol...
I guess a quick test would be to swap headers.
If nothing happens, the ports are too big.

One idea I'm leaning towards is the water injection. On my last engine b20 supercharged made160kw and then added water injection and re tuned could only get back to 150kw . Though i may gain some kw by reducing the water but at the track where temp will be up I my lose due to the high intake temps.

is it an idea to change the ignition system, remove the distributor ( insert AEM) and use K series coil on plug set up . Or is this not right and I should still be looking at current parts for issue

Don't throw more money at it until you can work out what is failing you at this point in time

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Originally Posted by stndrd

Don't throw more money at it until you can work out what is failing you at this point in time

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I am booking it in for a dyno tune with no water and also run it up with 50/50 water methanl mix and change nozzle sizes and see what happens. i will know where i am at then....

Update
Buddy club exhaust is shit. Shone a light up the exhaust and found a 1 inch Pipe.... This is how much the exhaust tapered down to inside the muffler. Crazy
Added methanol to water 50/50 mix made no difference to power, tried all nozzle sizes still no power to be gained from that .. Though the exhaust was prob hurting the figures.

So I have removed the buddy club muffler and installed a 2.5 in muffler
Getting the super charger serviced .. Been racing for a few years so prob need it.

Looks like I need the cams dialed in better.. So once I get the supercharger back I will have to find the limits of the cams ( valve to valve clearance) before I start moving them..

i dont recall many people at all with decent supercharger results. i know that small cams are preferable.

stock valve size would be to avoid valves hitting eachother at overlap when dialled in correctly.

exhaust side of the head is probably the last place you want to port. you know that the air is forced out of there right? so much smaller ports are fine as the engine just pushes the air out and the more velocity the better so the next cylinder that fires can use the momentum and sucking action of the previous pulse to pull the gasses out of the cylinder.

did you know endyn actually decreases valve size in some of there crazy engines? porting is one of the last areas to look for power in forced induction.

what are your intake temps like?

i would suspect you are blowing alot of air out of your exhaust. can u smell unburnt fuel when its on the dyno and the air fuel ratios look fine? i think that is a sign of all the good stuff going out the exhaust.

take what i say with a grain of salt. i say 'i think' alot lol

good luck, i hope you get it sorted and have a beast when your done!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scholzey

i dont recall many people at all with decent supercharger results.

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i thought my results were fantastic :) 170kw? stock b18cr. on 7psi.

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Originally Posted by Alexplicit

i thought my results were fantastic :) 170kw? stock b18cr. on 7psi.

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Is that a Toda tune??? 170 Kw with supercharger torque would be great to drive

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Originally Posted by dougie_504

Higher CR usually yields more power but also more lag with a turbo,

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incorrect.

Low comp is what lag is.

low comp = low power waiting for the boost to kick in.

stock comp = zero lag.

low compression lowers your power till you have boost.

the turbo will come in at the same time as the same amount of gas is passing out the back, but the car will be accelerating harder with higher compression ratio.

so off boost is less power. but higher boost can be had becuse you will end up with the same pressure in the cylinder when high comp low boost and low comp high boost. they will both reach detonation at the same cylinder pressures.

which is why the whole engines setup and use needs to be taken into consideration when planning a build.

oh, when i said decent. i meant, your would look at your results and go wow! thats impressive! i mean when full built setups make the same as a stock motor, thats not that great. although a built motor will last alot longer through poor tuning.

built motor will last alot longer through poor tuning.

http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...h_IMG_0003.jpg


http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...h_IMG_0002.jpg

Update

So have saved up and got back on the dyno

I have made some changes to my set up
I have removed the buddy club rear muffler and installed a 2.5 inch muffler
installed new superchargewr pulley
increased the water meth injection with .7 sized nozzel

these changes have netted this increase

My graph is very smoth compared to many other graphs i have seen on oz honda. someone may know why other graphes are so lumpy

damn thats one smoth graph there
so nice!

Yeah looks like she pulls hard, love the low down torque you got there !

I'm still questioning this, I don't understand why on 7 psi I'm making very similar power levels on a stock b18c.... And your running how many psi? I believe your cams are way oversized. Not being a troll. Just curious?

its very hard to know what is causing what.

changing one thing at a time is the only way to check for real gains. but changing one thing at a time then retuning for a few hours costs wayyy to much. wish i had my own dyno :P

looks fun :P enjoy it!

too true... gl with it, i need to get re-dynod, i always wondered y i could never hear my supercharger... found out y... the belt was never on properly... so now it makes full boost :P... and full noise :P haha will update my thread when i re-dyno :)

If I remember the correct info , I think it was the Hasport crx used these cams to increase there super chareged power levels..

I do think I need to decrease the over lap as it loses a lot of boost on the high cam.. Could prob get back 2 psi , really need to try. Not sure how much kw that would equat to.

Not sure about a few things cause a standard 116kw engine gaining 60 kw from 7 psi is an additional 50 percent gain is an increadable gain

i was amazed aswell the bolt on power was incredible !!

I beleive that if you decrease your overlap then you will get your boost back, those cams are fairly large for boost. If you try 2deg advance on your exhaust and 2deg retard on your intake you will start seeing gains everywhere. Just make sure you reset your dizzy when changing cam position. Also be sure to whined it over by hand after changing your cam position to check for valve 2 valve clearance.

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Originally Posted by blwncr

I beleive that if you decrease your overlap then you will get your boost back, those cams are fairly large for boost. If you try 2deg advance on your exhaust and 2deg retard on your intake you will start seeing gains everywhere. Just make sure you reset your dizzy when changing cam position. Also be sure to whined it over by hand after changing your cam position to check for valve 2 valve clearance.

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Closing the exhaust early will stop boost going out and retarding intake will allow more boost in .. Basically I think that's right.
Even with semi slicks this torque rips it up...

On another note I disconnected my cai and made no power increase so all the talk of Sri no good in my case

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Originally Posted by Alexplicit

I'm still questioning this, I don't understand why on 7 psi I'm making very similar power levels on a stock b18c.... And your running how many psi? I believe your cams are way oversized. Not being a troll. Just curious?

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I think for many reasons. Firstly you have a Type R head, hand ported and polished from Honda, this means your two heads will have different flow characteristics.

Secondly, it could also depend on the efficiency of the supercharger. Just increasing boost doesn't necessarily mean more power will be made, it may be flowing air more than the screws of the JRSC is capable of using efficiently...

any updates ?
have you ported the SC yet as it will make a huge diffrence to power and heat
Im on a poor tune @151kw atm
there are lots of mods you still havent mentioned if done or not

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Originally Posted by Dart

http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...h_IMG_0003.jpg


http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...h_IMG_0002.jpg

Update

So have saved up and got back on the dyno

I have made some changes to my set up
I have removed the buddy club rear muffler and installed a 2.5 inch muffler
installed new superchargewr pulley
increased the water meth injection with .7 sized nozzel

these changes have netted this increase

My graph is very smoth compared to many other graphs i have seen on oz honda. someone may know why other graphes are so lumpy

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Have you got any graphs with and without watermeth?

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Originally Posted by MRGRIM

any updates ?
have you ported the SC yet as it will make a huge diffrence to power and heat
Im on a poor tune @151kw atm
there are lots of mods you still havent mentioned if done or not

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I have had the dags cleaned up on the supercharger outlet when it was serviced and had an oil change.
What mods are u thinking about I haven't done

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sexc86

Have you got any graphs with and without watermeth?

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No I dont . It does not make more power with water meth.

send me a pm
and i will explain
there are lots to do

your setup is basic compared to myn :)

oh and that power on myn is from a b16 bad tune 151KW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dart

No I dont . It does not make more power with water meth.

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Im not sure how you have gone about it - but you cannot simply inject water meth and expect your car to make more power. Contrary if you inject water-meth ontop of your normal fuel mapping, you will over richen you fuel mixture. This will cause the combustion process to drown (yes you will loose power ) and even possibly cause misfiring (depending on how much your injecting).

The whole purpose to water meth is to have you car tuned with this equasion involved in the fuel mixture - This means your fuel mapped units will be lower as the water meth is actually a source of fuel. The benefits of water-meth injection are A - cools your intake and combustion charge, B - Reduces the tendency of your fuel to detonate (this is like running a high octane fuel) - It is because of this you are able to run more ignition timing in your tune and hence make more power.

There are some risks to this depending on your setup. Firstly if you are only running a single injector before your throttle body (i assume you are) - you do not have a controlled amount going into each cylinder. Some cylinders could be richer or leaner and the tuner really would have no way in knowing as they only use a single o2 sensor at the back of your exhaust (averaged out o2 reading of all 4 cylinders).

If you are using water meth to extra more power i would strongly recommend useing a low level switch in your water/meth tank, and using that to trigger a input on your ecu to bring on a different table or even a generic output to add fuel, reduce timing etc.

AND - buy a wide band and have the 0-5v signal datalogging into your ecu and setup lean-out protection with a conservative value. e.g. Over 10psi, a/f under 12.5 etc

If you are running injection and you dont want to play around with the fuel mapping all that much, ditch the methanol and just run Demin water. The methanol will do you more harm then good if you dont use it properly..

hope this helps

any updates on yours yet
Ive had myn retuned and now have lots more KW's :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MRGRIM

any updates on yours yet
Ive had myn retuned and now have lots more KW's :P

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I have not had time to do any more changes. When I do I will be adjusting the overlap of the cams. This is where the improvement will be. The cars drive great more power will just be more wheel spin ripp n up the semi slicks. = more fun

Good thread but would like to see MOAR PWR?!

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If you are running injection and you dont want to play around with the fuel mapping all that much, ditch the methanol and just run Demin water. The methanol will do you more harm then good if you dont use it properly..

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This is too true. Just run water if you are just looking for cooler intake temps.

Goodluck finding out the issue.. keep us updated :)

Or run a LHT manifold if you want cooler intake temps

Exactly right Grifty. I started to think about intercooled supercharger setups for this fine gentleman but realised noone else put that idea up there so I thought maybe it may be too much money / work for him to incorporate that one in now.

(Y) Love your work.

LHT is expensive, and might not be worth it for everyone

$845 for the modification + postage $$?
$200 heat exchanger
$20 lines
$50 fittings
$50 reservoir
$200 water pump + coolant $$?

vs

$400 AEM water/meth kit + methanol $$?