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Great info Adrian.
Medium budget - So this kind of power can be sustained without having to go for aftermarket rods/pistons?
That is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by wynode
An example of the medium budget kit can be seen here. (Cick on link below)
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1256/article.html
It's one I did quite some time ago, back in 1999~2000 when I was part of "Hypertune"
Cheers
Adrian
very nice writeup indeed.. I assume these can only be used as guidelines I spose.. for D series and H series engines?
nice writeup adrian!
btw i drove passed RUF performance on saturday while going to jap connection!
looks like a nice place!!
correct me if im wrong , but if using a piggy back computer to run a set up is so bad than why does advan use this method in there stage 1 kits (some)
because kits are sold to make money for the maker, not give you the best set up. Ecu's were expensive(there are so many freeware alternatives out now, it actually costs more money for a vaf-c hack or a piggy back than to use one of the many very capable freeware set ups(uberdata, chrome, turboedit, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by superR
couple things I disagree with...
why no block guards? when installed correctly(which the majority of the time they are not), they do a wonderful job of helping to keep headgaskets in good condition. Sure, it may not be a substitute for sleeving the block, but as far as keeping the sleeves from moving at all, they do help.
and second, a lightweight flywheel...
yes, they make more power, but for a street car, they make things a bit more of a pain in the butt for driving. Also, many turbo guys run heavier flywheels(lighter than stock, but certainly not the 7-8 lbs ones that are common among the n/a crowds). With the extra torque from the turbo, you can utilize the extra bit of inertia provided by the heavier flywheel to help get you off the line better.
and my biggest disagreement...
advising people to start with a kit.
kits are put together to make the company selling them money. They VERY rarely offer the quality parts that you should be using. You can always put together a kit of your own using better parts for less money. The only reasonable time to use a kit is when it must be legal(I don't know the details of the aus system regarding these mods, but from what I've read, it seems that like out here, only a small handfull of the kits are actually legal).
Take the greddy kit for example. You buy that, and want to make any decent power, you'll have to swap out the manifold for a non restrictive tubular one. Even if you keep the turbo, you'll still want something other than the tiny 2" downpipe. You still need to get an intercooler and fuel management, etc. So now, you've spent all this money on the kit, only to buy another manifold, another downpipe, and a whole lot of other stuff you didn't get. For any sort of budget, you'll always make more power for less money, with better quality parts by putting things together yourself. This is one case where you can have more power, more reliability, and less money interacting happily.
The only kit out there, that's really worth buying, would be one made by full-race.com You get good quality parts, that are meant to make power. There isn't some sacrafice between quality and mass production techniques, etc. But it's also very expensive. If you want good parts, and are willing to pay someone to put it together for you, that's about the only option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superR
Rather than make any comment for or against another workshop,
I will say that there are many stage 1 kits that are inclusive of some form of piggy back ECU.
Eg: The E-manage system included with the Greddy kit.
The purpose of this thread is to advise the best way to go about turbo charging your Honda within a certain budget group.
Though such systems are not ideal, nor are they advisable to use.
It does not change the fact that they do exist, are available & in use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman
NB: No offence is intended or implied with this reply.
The intent of this post/thread is to outline what is the best path to take to get the best results to a certain level.
Block guards are not recommended for the following reasons.
a) Though it may appear to visually bolster the strength of the top of the block.
Its physical ability to actually do so falls short of outweighing its negative aspects.
b) The prime reason for not using a block guard is poor cooling.
The factory Honda B-Series engine block employs a dry cylinder liner.
Because of this the heat from combustion must first be transferred through the liner material & then into the block material.
These are two dissimilar metals which doesn’t aid this heat transfer.
Honda have tackled this issue & overcome it by introducing what looks like course threads on the sides of the cylinder liners to increase the surface area of heat path & used a high pressure die cast alloy block to increase block density.
Thus, the relatively inefficient thermal conductivity of the 2 dissimilar metals of the cylinder liner and the block has been addressed by Honda.
The fitment of an aftermarket block guard compounds an already existing problem by introducing an additional heat path.
This additional heat path causes heat to remain in the upper cylinder liner.
This is an area already subjected to the most heat.
In reality, though a block guard may visually appear to physically steady the sleeves in position, the resultant reduction in thermal conductivity caused, combined with disturbed coolant flow to the head, compromises the combustion process.
I.e.: The resultant increase in resident heat in the combustion chamber (upper cylinder liner) can lead to detonation.
(The single biggest killer of high output engines.)
It’s interesting the block guard was somehow developed to solve this problem.
In very high output turbocharged applications, moving to a wet cylinder liner or aftermarket cylinder block should be considered & often is the best solution.
Using such aftermarket wet liners solves any perceived rigidity problems & also allows capacity to be increased safely.
c) Installation issues are another woe not even worth going into.
The myriad of problems this can cause is just in a league of its own
I’ll just say shonky workmanship is shonky workmanship.
NB: Head gasket issues are covered through the budget groups & further addressed as the budget increases.
A stopper type gasket solves the head gasket issue nicely.
When the power level warrants it, ARP studs are then employed.
At the high budget - high power output point, as previously stated the use of alternative cylinder liners should be considered.
Regarding the lightened flywheel,
The purpose of this post/thread is objective advice on what works.
Lightweight flywheels do work & do offer good performance gains for dollar spent.
Point of note - There are no aftermarket flywheels available for the B-series engine that outweigh the factory item.
Regarding advising people to start with a kit...
I think we’re saying the same thing here, just from different angles.
Please re-read the first post, it relates to end goals & total budgets.
Of course its good value for someone to use a kit if that's all they ever want.
My recommendation for using a kit stops at med-low budget...
After that, the recommendation moves to using only the manifold from a kit...
Sourcing all other parts individually...
To the power levels given, the cast manifolds are up to the job.
Further they offer very good reliability / long life. (Resistance to cracking etc)
At the high end budget, the recommendation is that everything is custom & nothing is from any kit...
The whole idea behind this post was to stop young guys wasting money.
That is, to start with an end goal in mind & work backward to achieve it.
Cheers
Adrian
excellent post, and very well said!
I still disagree on the kit part...
isn't part of having a low budget about getting the most for the amount of money you're spending? you'll always spend more money and get less with a kit. Infact, I think that it goes the other way around. For higher budget jobs, there are kits that could be effectively used(i.e. full-race), but for a low budget set up, you're just wasting money by buying a kit. If someone can't put together a kit to do the job, they probably shouldn't be turboing there car anyway.
low budget= no kit because it's cheaper to not get one
high budget= no kit because kits don't offer what is needed for the set up your after
As for just using the manifold from a kit, unless you're getting a really good deal, they tend to cost as much or more as a new, log manifold, which has been proven (assuming proper construction) to flow better and make more power. These days, there are so many options for manifolds out there, at such good prices, why waste the money on a used, more restrictive manifold?
sorry i ment to sat AVO ... my bad
Great write up Adrian..
Sorry to go off topic, but i was wondering, where did u start your career?? as an apprentice mechanic?
Big :thumbsup: to the write-up, some great info
If someone had alot of money and only wanted a street use kit, would they be able to use the high budget kit? or is something like that recomended for off-street use only??
There must be alot of downsides to that kit if its for street.. you would be taking years off your engine life wouldnt u?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul1985
Its not ment to be a "high budget kit" as such, or at all. What the post is getting at is that on a high budget you should be looking at doing everything custom.
As for the down sides to driving a high budget turbo setup on the street, i personally would be driving it to work every day or as a run around, some will disagree with me, but i still maintain this point of view. As for your engine, should last for a long time, providing it is setup and tuned correctly, and serviced regularly.
cheers
in australia, turbo honda;s are few and far between. There is no 2ndhand market. No independant vendors like fullrace (at any level). Not many junkyards and what they do stock is highpriced. Hell finding cheap piping (no such thing as jcwhitney!) is bloody hard. No stealthmode, nooooone! Kits are the cheapest way into turboing if you can DIY. Seriously, take my word, ive investigated many options. Everything we want needs to be imported from the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman
Mad write up Adrian, James and Dave.
is there more to the setup or is dis it to have your type r charged?
cos i wanna follow it.
HKS dun supply gaskets for B18c i just checked.
b-series bang for your bucks appicable to d-series?
Saxman – LOL ok…
Paul1985 – Cheers
Reg myself… I started out as an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.
I moved on from there. (Been building & tuning engines for over 15 years)
Regarding the high budget set-up.
If someone had a lot of money and only wanted street use from their car,
Obviously they would be able to use the high budget set-up.
(Unless the power output exceeded what they were after)
For legal compliance.
The external waste gate should be plumbed back into the main exhaust system before the catalyst & the BOV should also be plumb-back.
Air filter should exist in an air box & get your self an engineer’s report.
Smiley Sakai - Cheers,
For DC2R - follow above set-ups
Also, the HKS product does exist...
B16A 2.6mm gasket - PN 2301-RH012
http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/...tal/metal.html
aStRooo
Yes, to a point.
The D-series doesn’t have anywhere near the same potential.
wouldn't it still be cheaper to import the parts from the states(I ask this because I do a lot of work with the people in uk, and it's cheaper for them to import all the parts from the states, fly me out there to have me install the parts and tune the ecus, and put me up in a hotel while I'm out there than it is to purchase a simple kit)
Thanks to everyone who enjoyed reading the article above and the links on Hondatech its taken a large amount of time for Adrian, Dave and my self to produce the above work.. you should have seen all the draft versions I typed up ! LOL ;) ( ehhe at pope and abusing people jokes)
Hope it al helps ;) anyway…. As for flying out here… lol
Flights to Aust 1000 – 1500$ each way
Typical hotel $50 – $150 per day
Import tax, GST, shipping costs, custom clearance costs, international bank clearance costs and profit
ECU = Australia is the home of EFI ;)
Number of self installs cheap sakes in Australia ;) plentiful
No one does anything for nothing these days… time is $$
Each time you import something it must clear customs, they charge a service fee to typically categorize each shipment, they charge you 15% import tax (unless it falls under the free trade agreement) but you still need to pay the service fee of around $50 to $100.
Then pay GST on top of everything, including shipping costs…. Then when your VISA statement comes in the bank wants to charge you 3% for international money order. Everyone is out to make money ! then if you’re a business and importing products your going to want to add profit into the price also…. So importing isn’t as straight forward and just buying off the net…. Some people get away with scamming the system, undervalue goods, trying to send parts as gifts, changing the price etc etc, all which is illegal, but if you get caught, say bye bye bye to your parts and your money… its sometimes better to do things legit at least you get what you order.
Regards James
C’mon… So you suggest people spend their money on 2nd hand junk.Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman
Parts where the survivability is an unknown factor,
Import these with no means of reprise should they be crap…
Then fly you out to fit & tune these old parts...
A guy who thinks the log manifold is supreme?
LOL
ehheeh "log" lol ehehhehe
Regards James
no, I suggest people import new parts... and no, a log manifold isn't supreme, but I would take one over a restrictive cast manifold for more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
I wasn't suggesting I fly out there and do the work, I was making the point that if I can do it with the people in the UK(who have very high vat and import duty costs added on to everything out there) where purchasing NEW parts, importing them, paying duty and taxes, flying me out there, putting me up, and having the parts installed and tuned is cheaper than buying even a basic off the shelf kit there, that it would be more cost effective to import just the parts from the states than it would be to buy a kit.
Nah adrian, i checked, yeh they only got it for B16A (About $684) but not B18C. I asked HKS Australia already.Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
could i use Apexi Honda version of Power fc?
RPS Acura Integra 92+ 1900 lb. PRO (Have to import)?
Toda lightweight flywheel?
And (184-320KW) GTR intercooler with end tanks, 600x300x100. HKS?
Thanks for the write up guys. really appreciate it.
yeh, looking at this i could see heaps of money being saved. in regards to bolt ons.
will my gear box (ie; engine) handle this much power?
And if the car is boosted. does vtec have to be tuned to lower revs. that meaning if i want both high cams and turbo at high revs. is this going to be a problem for the engine etc.?
edit: Since you guys have done this before. does a/c abs etc any important feature. have to be removed or moved? or will the space inside the bonnet be big enough to house these items?
thanks
I wanna know about gearbox's and cams under these conditions too.Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaboy
I’m not sure if Power FC have a solution for 92 Honda Integra, I know they do have a few models available for the later Honda’s if that’s the path you want to take. Power FC will control boost up to 11psi ( stock map sensor) I know when tune s15 Silva’s we get around the max boost level by changing the air flow meter to a VG30 which allows higher amounts of boost to be run. Not 100% sure if PowerFC allows re calibration of the map sensor. The other down side to PowerFC is the hand controller doesn’t allow you to tune in real time, you have to watch the load points on one screen, remember what points need to be changed and then find the points in another menu and change them. This is all simplified if you have the powerFC laptop cable and software thow which makes tuning a lil easier, although the powerFC only has 1 fuel and 1 ignition map (20x20) which can make tuning vtec cross over points and drive ability a lil more tricky compared to other options. But this is’t a tuning thread so ill shutup now ! ;-)
With regards to a B gear box, my lil b16 gear box has no problem’s holding 450kw+ and its almost stock, with a high quality after market LSD, we also use high quality engine mounts to help the whole situation, but essentially no one on this forum would ever need to worry about there gear box if its in perfect working order, unless you want to run a 9sec ¼ time.
Vtec and boost go hand in hand, vtec is the best thing invented, to cut a long story short… the engine gets to a certain RPM point and allows more air in / out of the engine, the only slight issue is valve overlap, ie both valves being open at the same time (intake / exhaust ) so your pressurized air just gets blow out of the exhaust side of your engine, but tuning with cam gears, correct cams and general tuning with the correct knowledge and tools will solve this, and make the engine work very very efficiently.
As for the turbo effecting things like power steering, brakes and abs and air con.
Some cheaper manifolds or race only manifolds are designed to be not air con compatible, because they simply take up the room occupied by the air con compressor thus you need to remove your air con, but there are many manifolds out there that allow air con still. But if speed is your thing.. you should’t need to worry about air con ! eheh
As for power steering and abs, iv never seen any turbo setup effect these, although it should be noted, if you upgrade your engine power you should look at upgrading your brake system, larger brakes, better pads, if you go fast you must be able to stop !
As far as room goes, the use of installing after market slim line fans, custom radiators, all help in making huge amounts of room under the bonnet if required.
Hope that helps…
Regards James
I got a teg radiator in my EG, do i need to change to a civic radiator to accomodate for the manifold/turbo or will i alright? In which case, will heat transfer from exhuast housing to radiator and cause overheating issues?
Yes im sure you can find a manifold / turbo combination to fit with your full size teg radiator, typically thow the civic radiator is half the size, but double the core, so it takes up less space, also by putting after market fans on your radiator or reversing them onto the other side can free up lots of space, as for heat issues from the manifold / turbo use common scene, if things are to close, or get to hot, go with another solution.
http://blkcrx.hondata.com.au/blkcrx/...t/DSC00887.jpg
You can see my tinny radiator on the attached picture, (located behind the right “high beam head light) it’s the standard civic size radiator, but triple core, and full aluminum works very well, temperatures stay 90deg all day every day, exactly where the Honda engine likes it
Regards James
As far as "the right cams" are concerned, I wouldn't be looking toward something that was intended for an NA engine, eg. toda b or toda c's, would i? I read somewhere that the EK9 cam was good for turbo setups......
Sorry to be pain and ask lots of little questions, but i just wanna get the whole picture of what needs to be done so that i can get the correct setup....the first time..
Thanks
Why wouldn’t B or C’s or any other large cam’s work. ! Of course they work !
Build the BIGGEST and BADEST NA engine … Huge cam’s Lots of compression, lots of displacement, all the goodies to go with it. And add just 1psi of boost ! will the engine be better ? with or without the 1psi of boost !
Answer = Of course the engine will be MUCH better with 1psi.. .so what about 10psi ? Same answer.. of course the engine will be much better ! As long as the internal’s can hold the amount of “boost” and you can tune the engine correctly and supply enough fuel for it.
Regards James
damnmit.
i was gonna get power fc butnow yeh.... anyone know what ecu to get ? medium budget looks goooood.
hey, do you think parts for other cars will suit? like wrx hybrid intercooler and that. or 200sx turbo. things like that.? or does it have to be proper honda/acura stuff...
Excellent write up ;)
What about traction and driveability of the cars? With the kind of power levels being achieved does the car become a bitch to drive? Or is this just a myth about high power fwd cars?
Of course if you have a lead foot your going to wheelspin all over the place, is there anything that those of you who drive a turbo Honda have done?
With the addition of an LSD are things greatly improved?
B16A gasket is the same as B18C gasket...:rolleyes: (HKS Aust are clueless)Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiley Sakai
Re Apexi FC - Yes, done that before... (See Civic example given previously)
RPS clutch - try Online
TODA Flywheel - yes
That IC would be fine.
thanks again adrian.
later on. if i find good setup to use. could you quick double check the compatibility for me?
*bump*
do you think parts for other cars will suit? like wrx hybrid intercooler and that. or 200sx turbo. things like that.? or does it have to be proper honda/acura stuff...
Regarding double checking compatibility...Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiley Sakai
FFS I will do no such thing! :rolleyes:
It works...
Do yourself a favour though.
Stay well away from fools who tell you B16A gasket cannot be interchanged with one from a B18C...
Regarding what parts will suit.
Hybrid intercoolers are ok, but they are not top shelf.
Do not use a turbo from a 200SX if you want lots of power.
Use one that someone with a 200SX would use to get more power.
(Please re read the 1st post & understand it)
ehehehe fair 'nough. :p advice do cost money and if you do say yes then prolly 200 other members will be pming you LMAO!!Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
kinda hard when theres only soo limited people with A++ knowledge on this really advanced subject! ahahah if you didnt tell me about HKS then i wouldnt still have a clue.. take it word for word coz its HKS man..HKS!! LOL. Ill prolly end up buying 3/4 of the turbo setup off them just to be safe LOL
nah i just wanted to check about compatiblility whether i could go nick someones upgraded 200sx (or GTR) turbo charger and a wrexy's fully sick IC and dump it all together in the integra to get a 200GTRx if ya get me. LOL
(Just want to know if those parts will be up to the job for the specs of the integra engine.)
ehehehehe anyways thanks again Adrian!! :D
edit: stoopid question, 2.5 exhaust and high cat... any would do right? unless stated as turbo only.?
Smiley Sakai and others, please keep replies related to the Bang for Buck mods that have been listed or contact Adrian privately if you would like information on a custom setup. Keep up the good work!
2.5 exhaust and high cat... any would do right? unless stated as turbo only.?
hmmm 3" form the cat back... or 3" from the turbo exhaust housing if it fits...
to BLKCRX
first of all NICE PIC
i need help buildin my kit as u seem very expenrienced i think u can help me
im building a b18c turbo my expectation ov it is to beat my friends vti
hez got a civic b18 with light internals and is saving for a 12k turbo upgrade mebe even a b20
my remaining budget is 8000 can save more
iv got 1,9 crank
eagl rods
9,0 comp pist
extractors 40mm wastegate port(stainless)
3"d-pipe
aftermarket alum radiator
thats it for now the kit is going in my 1990crx and will boosrt a vti-r b18c
my first question is about compressiom - if i get a t3/4 to boost it would a thin copper gasket be a better choice than a thik gasket?
and if i want it to b mildly quiet is that 3" d-pipe too fat ?
thank god honda gear boxes can hold power i was thinking fo how many thousands my box would eat
my shopping list is
boch feul pump
ecu
t3/4
40mm wastegate
bov
head gasket
valvesprings
intercooler and plumbing 2,5"
msd ignition coil
exhaust
h22a injectors
exedy clutch
turbosmart variable boost controll
t-timer
wat am i still missing?
and wat kind of exhaust and clutch would u recomend?
my main question is about ECUz
can you get an ecu that runs 2 different boost levels efficiently at the flick ov a switch
if yes do you kno vo any? please help me as i dont want to buy something that i would have to replace later
THANKYOU IN ADVANCED
crx_boy7, this is a bang for your buck thread and its best you contact James privately for any specific information about your car.
whoz james
BLKCRXQuote:
Originally Posted by crx_boy7
Hmm im not sure what your asking in your above post crx boy, are you saying that your friend wants to build a b18 or b20 and spending 12k on top for a turbo setup >? And you want to beat him but only have 8k to spend ?
In general the person who spends the most amount of money will win, unless you get ripped off ;) by some back yard junkie.
Eagle roads are ok for a basic application although I would never rev them above 9200rpm, whilst there a forged rod there just not that strong. 9.0 comp pistons is kinda low unless you like in the outback and only have access to 91octane fuel.. 40mm Wastegate doesn’t really matter what size you get I run a 35mm gate and it holds 35+ psi of boost all day every day, the important factor thow is to make sure it’s a GOOD brand, I recommended HKS or Tial.
The rest of what you have sounds ok, its good that your thinking of cooling your car with a nice aftermarket radiator, cooling is a big issue which must be controlled for.
I would be using a stock head gasket if your building your engine, or leave this up to your engine builder, stay away from copper gaskets thow, you want a 3 layer gasket.
3” can be loud, but the turbo does absorb a lot of the noise, with the addition of resonators / hotdogs and a large muffler im sure you can get the noise down quit low, it will be a case of try it and see how it is, but yes 3” exhaust will give you better response and more power due to turbo setups wanting a ultra free flowing exhaust setup.
The stock Honda gear box is 100000% fine I use a stock gear box in my 400+kw crx and online 9sec tube frame car also use’s a stock Honda gear box.
Your shopping list does seem a little vague, make sure you get named brand quality parts but yes your heading in the right direction of designing a nice setup, although of the top of my head your already way over your budget of 8k.
The ECU is also a very critical part of any setup, I recommend what more than likely is the most popular ECU used in Honda’s around the world and what I use in my car, Hondata. It works 100% all day every day, it will control your car in every aspect required period. Enough said there ;)
With regards to your boost levels yes in most cases your turbosmart variable boost controller has a import signal which changes the boost setting from hi to low, this can be controlled directly by most ECU,s in the case of Hondata for instant you have it activate only in lets say 3rd gear or only when your at 100km over 50% throttle, or one of any huge possible options, this is really a fine tuning issue to improve the drivability of your car and something a tuner would setup for you. If you need any help (or anyone else reading this ) feel free to pickup the phone and give me a call on 0417 875 785 like I said above sounds like your almost there, just need help choosing the correct parts.. my simple advice is keep saving !!
Hope that helps
Regards James
Where did all the info go??
Looks like they want people go to their own site now....
i beleive its on www.hondatech.com.au
D-series.org guys getting high power outputs like over 140 Kw at the wheels. A D-series vtec turbo seems like a good bang for your buck upgrade and keeping it street trim. Beat any civic n/a, got some balls the turbo kits...
whr to get info?
Not here :)