I am thinking of lowering my Euro. What do I have to look/ask for? Anyone know the estimated cost?
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I am thinking of lowering my Euro. What do I have to look/ask for? Anyone know the estimated cost?
just get a set of lowered springs..
king springs maybe around $400 fitted
But I'd recommend something better for a euro, like H&R or eibach...they are about $500ish (not fitted) but worth the money
how low are you going though?
I don't know? I have not done this before. How low can I go?
I think lowered springs will drop your car about 1.5-2"
i had king springs on my integra dc5 untill i put tein coilovers on it . king springs are ok but a bit harsh , i havent used the other brands mentioned but i probably wouldnt use king springs on the euro ( i want to lower mine aswell so let me know what you end up going with and how they were ) i think the euro is a resonably comfy ride which is why i bought it , so if the ride doesnt concern you you can put almost anythiong in there ( probably dont go for super low though )
is it true that using just average lowered springs can actually take away from the stock handling.... especially with a car like the euro which is generally setup handling well anyway?
thats very true. I've done a bit of research about lowering the euro and basically i'd avoid only changing the springs for any drop greater than say 1".Quote:
is it true that using just average lowered springs can actually take away from the stock handling.... especially with a car like the euro which is generally setup handling well anyway?
The eibach springs (which are a well known/liked brand) will lower a minimum of 1.5-1.6" all round and thats enough to blow the stock shocks. So basically you either get replacement shocks + springs or go for a much more subtle drop. Another thing to remember is that anything approaching 1.5"'s and lower in the euro is probably going to require purchase of a camber kit to adjust the rear camber back into spec (unless of course you don't care about tyre ware)
What i hope to do in the future is buy some well made but fairly basic and inexpensive coilovers (i.e. tein basic coilovers) that will probably end up costing the same as koni yellow shocks + eibach springs but with the addeed advantage of choosing whatever height you want (a feature of coilovers) and the fact that they can be rebuilt and recoditioned as they get older.
www.fulcrumsuspensions.com.au (i think thats the site) should be getting these in soon, they also have a camber kit available and can order in whiteline brand sway bar for the euro too.
Hoped that help, but thats the approach i'm taking when i finally get around to lowering my car.
Search is your Friend.. :)
There are a few threads on different brands of springs and coilovers covered...
Are there any springs out there that maintain the same levels of comfort as the stock springs? (Im doubtful)
I installed Tein springs in my DC5R and the ride was so bad, but it looked good at least :D
If I get Springs, someone told me the inner guard will have to lower/adjust as well, to prevent the wheel from scratching. Is that true?
Not that I know of, but your camber will be more as the factory setting is set at -1 degree....
why dont you go to a suspension shop , they will anser all of your questions , just make sure you go to one with a good reputaation and tell them what you want to achieve , maybe go to a few , then post what you found out so you can get different opinions form us aswell .
I like my car height. But I want to change to Koni yellow shocks with stock spring to improve stiffness
. Any commend?
if you are looking for H&R Spring, i know someone that do it for $550 in perth fitted.
there are 2 version of H&R Spring..
normal.. lower the car 3.5cm
and low version lower the car 5cm
Freed, If you like the height why increase the stiffness. All you will get is a more uncomfortable ride. You would be better off increasing sway bar diameter to reduce the body roll. Increasing the stiffness will have that CL7 bucking like a bronco. They are already stiffer than the CL9.
Just want to reduce lift off and nose dive.
I dont know if I am right?
Yeah sorry mate, I read it as you wanted stiffer springs. The Koni yellows are great and can make a difference to those areas. Equally caster settings can reduce dive and squat. The koni yellows are great because you can tailor them to suit your driving with a flick of the wrist. The euro Rs I have driven have had pretty good handling straight out of the box, with all that weight behind the front wheels it is little wonder it squats a bit on takeoff.
Where are you located?
Sorry I have to bring this up again. I wasn't thinking of coilovers before but just bought a set of Tein Flex (still need to pay the guy). Have I made the right decision? Is coil better than Just changing springs?
I went to ozzytyres, i got it lowered 2 at the front and 2'5 at the back on Custom K-Mac springs, set me back $400
I know Springs is cheaper to get than Coils. So do you think springs is better than Coils?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrarista
No way are they better. They are considerably cheaper than coils for a reason. Each has there place though. $400 vs $2500 for a basic good coil setup is a big difference.
Definatly not, but im from the school that your not allowed to go more than 60km/h and your not tracking the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by eurosp
The Euro has really good handling characteristics via the chassis, its in my opinion (and i stress this 'my opinion') that spending money on parts to improve handling on a daily driven family saloon is a waste of money.
I Agree. After having a very firm, stiff and bouncing at times ride before, I'm enjoying the comfort and great stock handling. Maybe some coilovers down the track when the shocks and springs pack it in later.
Definatly not, but im from the school that your not allowed to go more than 60km/h and your not tracking the car.
The Euro has really good handling characteristics via the chassis, its in my opinion (and i stress this 'my opinion') that spending money on parts to improve handling on a daily driven family saloon is a waste of money.
Sounds like its time to buy a Volvo?
:p
Sounds like im not a ricer :D :D :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by eurotrash
A better handling car is a safer car. Period. Ever needed to do some evasive manoeuvrers at high speed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrarista
Whilst the Euro handling stock is fine - it can be much better with some mods that don't cost that much (thicker sway, strut brace, coilovers) - people spend far more on decent car stereo systems. I don't track my car - but I have comfort knowing my suspension changes means it will react much beter than the stock car.
Eurosp- if you are thinking of lowering your car - look into the Eibach Pro system. Hopefully when released it will be around $1000 and will be much better than just changing springs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Thats the thing, stock isint just fine - stock is really good its a very well balanced car. If your worried about road handling, spend the money on tyres which are the final contact point to the road. A good tyre will give you peace of mind.
Ferrarista we need to get you into a Euro with the mods I have mentioned :D You will be a believer! Better than just changing tyres - I am talking about the ability to change direction quicker, more stably and at much higher limits. That is what road handling is about IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrarista
Only mod im interested in atm is the Euro-R kit and i still cant find what im looking for :DQuote:
Originally Posted by yfin
i totally agree. my car feels incredibly stable at high speeds compared to stock and i can change direction and take corners with much more confidence evem at higher speed. I use to think the car was more than "fine" stock too but once you've experienced the higher limits that come with suspension + bracing bar mods thats all it is in comparison :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
..and that has alot to do with centre of gravity which lowering would do, ask the great Enzo Ferrari..he pioneered this. Also add a wider tyre and your fine, especially for a 4 cyliner FWD family car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
A thicker rear sway bar has a far greater difference to handlng than lowering the Euro - I know as I did the sway first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrarista
I guess this is just something we have to agree to disagree on :)Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Prediction. You will disagree with me right up until the day you install the thicker rear sway bar and strut brace. I guess it depends on how you drive and corner - but you don't know what you are missing. :p When people on this forum rave about mods like the Whiteline rear sway - they are not overstating things - it is fantastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrarista
Anyway - back to topic - Eurosp what have you decided to do? It has been a month or two since this thread started
If you lower it with spring, it's best to change your shocks too. I have Eibach's with stock shocks, and it's not a good mix imo. Too bouncy, and feels like you've hit a barrier when going speed humps.
Also, wider tyres aren't always the best solution for traction. With all that body roll, and weight shifting all the way to your outside tyres, no tyres of any width will be able to keep your inside tyres on the road. Sway bars help keep your tyres on the road by reducing roll.
It really depends on what you do with your Euro. I actually like to drive over 60km/h....and i like to corner over 60km/h too. Installed a $200 rear swaybar and it was like night and day. $200 isn't a lot to ask....better than $200 on a Euro-R grill :rolleyes:
Edit: Ferrarista, you really have no clue about cars. "Handling characteristics via the chassis??" What's that suppose to mean??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slugoid
lol you say i have no clue about the cars and your asking me how a good well balanced chassis can make a difference with handling? If you dont know what that is then i wont argue with it because you wont understand.
well i had my car lowered on coilovers and the handling improved -there was a reduction in body roll etc but that is mainly due to firmer spring rates and higher dampening rates than stock, not lower center of gravity (althought im sure it plays a part). Adding a sway bar, strut brace and lower arm bar after this really did make a big difference (almost as much as the coilovers did).
lowering will help obviously.. but if its just springs the stock shocks really cant cope with much more than 1.5" lowering or so ive read/been told. youll probably do more harm then good to the cars overal composure in the long run as the stock shocks begin to give way and your ride becomes bouncy etc...
Paypall me the funds then i'll give you an opinion :pQuote:
Originally Posted by yfin
What springs and dampers did you use to lower the car?Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Also, have you tried the upgraded springs and dampers with the original swaybar? I've been advised that the swaybar only makes a big difference when the springs and dampers aren't doing their job so well i.e. that if you have a good set of sports springs and dampers the swaybar will only make a noticeable difference under very high cornering pressure.
The guys I ordered my Mugen Sports Suspension (which I'm still waiting for) from advised me to see the difference the kit makes before spending money on stuff like swaybars and strut braces. I also find it interesting that Mugen don't make any other suspension mods for the Euro apart from the Sports Suspension kit (CL9) and the adjustable coilovers (CL7). Perhaps they've decided that the chasis is stiff and well balanced enough to not need anything else?
Also worth mentioning is that both Mugen suspension options lower the car by only 25mm. Perhaps Mugen has found that lowering the Euro's centre of gravity doesn't help too much?
i had my coilovers put on before my sway bar and strut bar. The really do make a difference toward the cars limit and generally speaking the car is flatter and more controlled because of them. Because the coilovers are setup with a more sporty bias compared with the stock suspension the bars probably aren't working as hard, but yea you do still notice a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
I think the reason the mugen suspension only lowers the car 25mm is because that's all the stock shocks can really take. At the end of the day it's always better to get well matched springs and shocks or coilovers than just lowering springs.
Sway bar + strut bar mods come highly reccomended from me - whiteline sway bar is only 200 bucks or so brand new. give it a try i doubt you'll regret it
Chassis affect the car's rigidity, weight, safety and overall strength. It has very little in how the car handles directly. Even with a well balanced chassis, if you have leaf springs then it's not gonna help handling. On the contrary, improvement in suspension can improve handling even if the chassis isn't all that well balanced. See what will happen if you replace the whole suspension of the S2000, which has a very well balanced chassis, with suspension from a Civic GLi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrarista
Chassis doesn't give me any feedback, other than rigidity. Suspension gives you most of the feedback.
The non-adjustable Mugen Sports suspension kit is not just springs, but a matched set of springs and shocks. The adjustables are COILOVERS. Both alternatives lower the car by only 25mm. As far as I know, Mugen does not sell lowering springs alone i.e. without matched shocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
I've got a Whiteline swaybar and Whiteline front and rear strut braces on my Integra LS, which I put on AFTER installing Eibach Pro Kit springs and Koni Yellow shocks. The bar and braces did make a difference to the cornering even at moderately high speeds, but the LS has more inherent chasis flex than the Euro and the Eibach springs are progressive rate, so they deliberately allow for body roll at initial compression. The point my 'expert advisor' was making about the Mugen set-up, which has fixed rate springs, is that it is so well sorted that, along with the inherent stiffness and balance of the Euro chasis, it makes upgraded swaybars and strut braces somewhat redundant for the street at anything but extreme cornering speeds.
Btw, I should note that the stiffness produced on my LS by the upgraded rear swaybar and front and rear strut braces can be quite a hinderance to roadholding on rough corners. This was especially apparent once I installed the strut braces, which was after the swaybar.
I suspect you are quite wrong. Professional testers constantly refer to chasis feedback. The suspension and the 'base' chasis work together. In fact, the effects of swaybars and springs are often referred to as chasis characteristics i.e. they are considered to be (bolt-on) parts of the chasis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slugoid
That's an interesting comment and well worth considering for any1 upgrdaing the handling. My old car suffered very badly from road holding on rough corners and I was close to getting a strut brace and rear sway bar, lucky I didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
Hey - my set up is as close to your proposed Mugen set up as anyone else on this forum. Same drop, springs and shocks made by Showa, etc. Totally fine by me if you believe swaybars and strut braces are redundant if you just change springs and shocks. The only problem with this view is some of us have tried and tested these changes and know the difference they can make in daily driving - not just extreme cornering.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
It is strange that the people in this post who are "so so" or questioning the benefits of a strut brace and sway bar are the people who do not have these mods on the Euro. Even the comment amount the sway bar re "road holding on rough corners" - irrelevant IMO as the comment was not made about the mod on the Euro. Different cars, different handling characteristics.
Are you the same person who recently stated that you do not know what the spring and damping rates are on your suspension? If so, surely you don't think that the drop height and name of manufacturer are enough to conclude that the set up is as close to the Mugen SS "as anyone on this forum"?Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Where did I say that I believe it? I merely shared what somebody else had suggested.Quote:
Totally fine by me if you believe swaybars and strut braces are redundant if you just change springs and shocks.
The person who made the suggestion that with the Mugen Sports Suspension the Euro does not have much to gain from swaybars and strut braces in other than very high cornering speeds repairs and modifies cars for a living, specialising in Honda, and has apparently done about half a dozen suspension upgrades on Euros.Quote:
The only problem with this view is some of us have tried and tested these changes and know the difference they can make in daily driving - not just extreme cornering.
It is strange that the people in this post who are "so so" or questioning the benefits of a strut brace and sway bar are the people who do not have these mods on the Euro.
Also, I wonder whether you missed the point as to why Mugen have decided not to make any suspension mods for the Euro other than the SS kit and the alternative adjustable coilovers? Is it because they have failed to adequately consider what swaybars and strut braces could do for the Euro?
The comment was very relevant, even if you might have missed the relevance.Quote:
Even the comment amount the sway bar re "road holding on rough corners" - irrelevant IMO as the comment was not made about the mod on the Euro. Different cars, different handling characteristics.
Firstly, there was a post suggesting that the chasis minus the suspension mods does not affect road-holding. When you speak of "different cars different handling characteristics" I presume you mean that the same 'bolt-on" (springs, shocks, bars, braces etc) suspension bits will have a different effect on different cars depending on the base chasis. That point was made implicitly in my post, with the aim of saying that it is not only the springs, shocks, bars, braces that affect handling, but also the base chasis characteristics that affect roadholding.
Secondly, stiffening up the chasis and suspension TOO MUCH can have a detrimental effect on the rough road cornering of ANY car. This is obviously something worth considering when upgrading bars, springs, shocks and adding braces to any car, if you want to make sure you strike a good balance. You've obviously struck the right balance on your car - at least for your taste and conditions. On my Integra, the result is awesome handling on smooth roads at the expense of lack of cornering composure on rough or uneven surfaces. It is more than reasonable for me to be cautious about going down the same road when considering upgrades for the Euro, which is the main reason why I am engaging in this discussion.
My question to you, which I posed previously, is have you tried your upgraded shocks and springs with the standard swaybar and without the strut brace?
aleksandrov- sorry I can't be bothered responding to everything in your post. I am not saying my suspension is the same as your wiz bang amazing Mugen SS. I am saying my configuration is as close as you will find on this forum. As for your Mugen expert - if he was so good and experienced in all things Euro - he would tell you the $200 thicker sway bar is a great mod for the money. Better bang for buck than your suspension kit. Lower your Euro as much as you like - dump it on its ass - you are still going to get plenty of body roll around corners.
And who gives what Mugen does in its development? You are suggesting that because mugen doesn't have a particular modification - other manufacturer's must be wasting their time? That is ridiculous. Long bow to draw.
Dude, like i said before there is no point explaining it because they simply wont get it even if you tried. Its one of those things that you either know or dont and it usually stems from a great knowledge of motor racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
If you weren't so overly touchy about your car and its mods you might be able to see the substance of my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
It's unfortunate that you've chosen to take an adversarial approach to this discussion, but I am happy to oblige.
Firstly, where did I suggest he was a MUGEN expert? Secondly, while I don't know exactly how much of an expert he is, I know enough to be certain that he has more expertise in tuning (Honda) suspensions than anybody that's posted on this thread. Whether you feel comfortable with accepting that fact is of no particular concern to me.Quote:
I am saying my configuration is as close as you will find on this forum. As for your Mugen expert - if he was so good and experienced in all things Euro - he would tell you the $200 thicker sway bar is a great mod for the money.
As far as the $200 Whiteline swaybar, he was good and experienced enough to tell me that it's much heavier than Japanese makes, like Swift for instance, and that Whiteline's development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards are well below Honda's standards and below the key JDM tuners' budgets and standards. He was also experienced enough to tell me that no reputable Honda tuner in Japan disrupts the fine balance of the Euro by increasing the diameter of the rear swaybar by 4mm (or more) while retaining the standard front bar, and that such half-way measures as designed to cater to people who want to get something for nothing and end up gaining one thing while sacrificing another.
How could you even know if it's better bang for buck than your own springs-and-shocks kit, considering that you don't seem to have tried your kit with the standard swaybar and no strut brace?Quote:
Better bang for buck than your suspension kit.
Btw, it might be of interest to some that the Australian distributor for KW suspensions (reputable German maker that's only starting to enter the Australian market) also suggested to me that bigger swaybars and strut braces only produce a significant improvement for the street if the springs and shocks aren't doing the handling job very well. He added that building an ultra-stiff car might be great for smooth race tracks, but can be detrimental to handling on imperfect roads. He also recommended against changing the rear swaybar without changing the front swaybar to match, unless you are trying to cure an imbalanced car. His view was that the Euro is definitely not an imbalanced car and that increasing the diameter of the rear bar by 4mm (which is what I believe Whiteline does) while retaining the standard front bar will make it imbalanced. It seems that Eibach is another German suspension company that agrees, since they make a a front-and-rear swaybar kit for the TSX/Euro, but will not sell the rear without the front or vice versa.
Was that directed at me? I guess you missed the part where I suggested that lowering doesn't do much for body roll, huh?Quote:
Lower your Euro as much as you like - dump it on its ass - you are still going to get plenty of body roll around corners.
Mugen is to Honda something like what AMG and Brabus are to Mercedes. Do you really think that any other aftermarket company, especially Whiteline, would have spent as much time, effort and expertise as Mugen in developing the Euro suspension for the street?Quote:
And who gives what Mugen does in its development?
Of course they are not wasting their time. For one, they are making money from the stuff they sell, especially from people who want to play racers on non-racing roads and at non-racing speeds.Quote:
You are suggesting that because mugen doesn't have a particular modification - other manufacturer's must be wasting their time?
What I am quite certain of though is that Mugen has much more of a reputation (for improving Hondas for the street) to uphold than Whiteline and other after-market brands have. It also has greater pressure not to ruin Honda's enormous engineering input. And that should make any thoughtful person question why they've chosen not to make swaybars and strut braces for the Euro.
ferrarista, aleksandrov - i can defintiely see your logic and i agree with you on some points, HOWEVER, yfin (and myself for that matter) are speaking from first hand experience. To be honest it doesn't bother me how much "great knowledge of motor racing" you have or how many supposed "experts" you have confirmed your theories with i'm sticking to my opinion that the addition of a sway bar makes a noticable improvement, try it for yourself you'll see... is it really that hard to believe? c'mon.
whiteline sway bar is 18mm which is 3mm thicker than stock i think.
i dont think anyone on this forum can profess to know more about the "fine balance" and inner workings of the euro than any other, this discussion has become very opinion based
one of our members, baboo also use to track his euro regurlarly and i've spoken to him about the various bracing bars he once had on his car and according to him it helped his lap times and reduced body roll around corners... you cant argue with that
The reason I raised the points was because I wanted to get other people's views on them. I appreciate your view that the upgraded rear swaybar does improve the handling even if you already have a good upgraded coilover set. But anybody who has not tried the coilover kit in question with the standard rear swaybar is logically not in a position to make that point and be taken seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
As far as Mugen being 'God', there really is no call for dramatising things. No sensible and informed person would deny that Mugen is a more significant authority when it comes to tuning Hondas than Whiteline is, and that it has a reputation for excellence that it can't afford to tarnish by selling something that won't pass rigorous testing by those in the know or that won't match or exceed Honda's engineering excellence.
Why do you even imply that I would want to argue with that? I've already said, or at least inferred, more than once that bracing bars and sway bars are beneficial for track work and at very high speed cornering on smooth roads (which is what most tracks are) generally. Did you miss that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
Did you also miss my point that what is beneficial on the track (or smooth roads generally) can often be detrimental on regular (uneven and/or rough) roads? It's really not a novel idea. If you read Wheels and Motor reviews that are based on comparative road and track testing you will find that it's quite an elementary concept.
the reason i decided to "dramatise things" as you put it is because of a previous comment like this - "But anybody who has not tried the coilover kit in question with the standard rear swaybar is logically not in a position to make that point and be taken seriously."
I believe i can be taken seriously when i say that a thicker sway bar will also help the mugen coilovers. Baboo had some very track orientated zeal coilovers which are now on Matell's car and they have very firm spring rates, firmer than the mugen coilovers you've mentioned. All i'm suggesting is, that if a sway bar can improve a car with track orientated (and very expensive/highly respected brand) of coilover then there is absoloutely no reason as to why it wouldnt help with the mugen susspension aswell (especially given its softer spring rates).
maybe you prefer how the car handles without a swaybar, and maybe the tuners you speak of do to and i respect that. but when it comes to body roll there is no denying that at the very limit (as it would be driven around a track) a sway bar is going to keep your car flatter.
i just read your posts in a bit more detail (about road surfaces etc).... maybe a swaybar and bracing mods arent suitable for the rougher roads. i assumed you were implying they weren't beneficial at all.
in saying that i still think a sway bar like the whiteline bar which is only a few mm thicker than stock could be suitable for the majority of road conditions. its probably not the best idea to be taking corners on roads that are very rough at higher speeds anyway.
Well the fact of the matter remains this, the Type S in the UK lapped quicker than a Volvo S60R which nearly had double the HP, they put this down to the chassis and standard suspension equiptment of the car.
My point is this, Honda have pumped alot of money into the the car. Stock wise, its a great handling car and spending thousands of $$ on a suspension upgrade is pointless especially because of what the car is meant to be used for - end of the day its still a family saloon, some people here should have bought an ITR instead.
Look, i respect your opinion if you want to go spend money on all different parts its your cash so do so, but dont look down apon people who dont want to do it and just add lowering springs to an already great handling car.
I know its not a popular opinion but deal with it, i'll respect yours and you'll respect mine and dont underestimate the car you have, its friggen awesome as it is :)
i think that summed up this debate pretty nicely. i agree with everything you said there.
i'm not tryin to put people down that believe suspension mods aren't worth the money its sorta the other way around. a lot of members have spent significant amount of money on suspension mods and when your told by other people with no or less extensive mods that they were practically a waste of money then obvioulsy your going to get some slightly heated answers.
i'm really happy with everything i've done to the car and don't regret it at all, just as im sure you dont regret the choices you've made with your car :)
just as a point of interest i remember reading on the tsx forum that in the states the modded racing tsx's are able to outhandle the rsx-s even with a significant weight penalty.
have you seen that article on the euro vs. audi. s4 volvo s60r it compared quite favourably to them handling wise too (completely stock) it was a good read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
Yeah, when i read that article my respect for the Euro grew 10 fold due to their Type S is our Euro. To be able to lap quicker than the S60R and only a few seconds more than the S4 was like..wow, this thing is friggen awesome.
Sorry, i just got worked up when one member said i knew nothing about cars because i suggested that the Chassis makes a difference with handling...i had to speak out :D
Roads don't need to be VERY rough for a very stiff suspension to not hold well on them. Mere camber changes in the road surface can unsettle a very stiff car. And whether you are taking the corner TOO fast relative to the surface quality depends on the suspension. On some corners, 40km feels too fast with my Integra because the stiffness causes it to lose traction (although not in a way that you 'lose' it), yet with the standard suspension on the Euro the same corner is a piece of cake at 40km. On the other hand, the Euro has no chance of matching the precision and stability at speed of the old Integra on long winding roads with decent surfaces. I'm hoping the Mugen SS will provide a good balance between the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
yea i was definitely impressed aswell hey. it kind of makes you question the reason for needing such powerful/expensive cars when aroudn the track they aren't significantly quicker. honda has definitely nailed fwd handling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrarista
no need to apologise either i like a good debate - so much more interesting then when everyone agrees :thumbsup:.
i agree that the roads dont need to be too rough. when i adjusted the damperning rates on the SS to a harder setting a noticed the car was more easily unsettled by bumps mid corner. but i was able to find a nice mix somehwere in the middle that gave good control and compliance over bumps. i really do agree with the majority that you have been saying and you come across as knowledgeable but we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the finer details.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
I don't know about others, but my decision to upgrade the shocks and springs wasn't to increase lap times. It was because I prefer the driving experience of a tighter suspension that gives me a more direct feel of what the car is doing, more direct steering feel, minimal float and minimal roll. In other words, I like the driving feel of a suspension that gives me a better sense of control and connection to the road. On decent roads, I find cars with such ride characteristics to be much more 'comfortable' than a spungy, 'limo-type' ride, especially from the driver's seat. Perhaps that's because I am generally a bit of a control-freak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrarista
Unfortunately, we have too many roads which are so crappy that it's better to feel disconnected from the road, but even the standard Euro suspension doesn't prevent such roads from annoying the crap out of me. I just hope the Mugen SS doesn't make them A LOT worse.
Perhaps the Euro is not the best car for my taste as far as ride and handling balance is concerned, but it's the best one with 4 doors that I could afford, except for the ($7,000 more expensive) Golf GTI, which had a 9 months waiting list and is not as refined overall as the Euro. $1600 (which is what the Mugen Sports Suspension kit costs) isn't much of a price to pay to get the Euro closer to what I really wanted. Even when you add the extra $1600, the car is still much better value than other similar-sized cars with similar prices.
I know the WRX is similarly priced, but its performance potential is not enough for me to overlook its lack of refinement and style compared to the Euro.
Have you ever heard of feel? I know the difference the new suspension has made - and it has not significantly changed body roll from when it was stock set up with the sway.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
A lot of what you say is just based on what other people have told you - not first hand experience. Fact: the Acura TSX has a factory Honda strut brace. Perhaps you should explain that to Mugen and these other distributors you are talking to. Ask them why Honda did that - a waste of time for a road car?Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
I also believe the TSX sway is 1mm thicker than the Euro. But let me find a source for that - gotta go to work now.
What about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
My point was specifically about how the upgraded shocks and springs would perform with the stock bars and strut brace as compared to how they perform with the upgraded rear bar and strut brace. The reason that putting on the new shocks and springs after the rear sway bar and front strut brace made no great difference to body roll COULD easily be that the body roll was already brought down to a level similar to that which the upgraded springs and shocks alone would have brought it down to. That's not a novel idea.Quote:
I know the difference the new suspension has made - and it has not significantly changed body roll from when it was stock suspension with the sway.
Btw, what gives you the idea that no body roll equals better street handling? The right amount of body roll can actually improve road holding in certain conditions, particularly on uneven roads.
And a lot of what you say seems to be based on your own untested assumptions. I think it's wise to place more weight on the experience of those who have undertaken more methodical testing.Quote:
A lot of what you say is just based on what other people have told you - not first hand experience.
Missing the point again, are we? Does the factory Acura TSX have springs and shocks that match the rates of your upgraded springs and shocks? Why do Honda Europe and Honda Japan not sell strut braces as suspension upgrade option, like they sell upgraded springs and shocks? Why does the Euro R not have a front strut brace? Is it because Honda Japan and Honda Europe weren't insightful enough to think of something as basic and relatively cheap as the strut brace? Or is it because Japanese and Europeans are less discerning about their cars' handling than Americans are?Quote:
Fact: the Acura TSX/Euro has a factory Honda strut brace. Is that because it was a waste of time for Honda to fit it?
Btw, this is beside the point, but I wasn't aware that Acura TSX has a factory Honda strut brace. When you say factory Honda, do you mean Honda Japan or Honda/Acura USA?
I have much more faith in Honda Japan's and Mugen's engineering and performance tuning capacity than in Acura's (Honda America's) local operations. After all, just look at the handling abilities of the Honda cars that were designed in America, like the large-bodied Accord and the second Integra Type R (which was a good handler, but not up to the standards of its predecessor), compared to the purely Japanese designs. Of course, that's not to say that the front strut brace does not make a positive difference on the street with the standard springs and shocks.
And before you raise the "did they waste their time" argument again, bear in mind that I never suggested that the swaybar and front strut brace make NO difference, but only that the difference MIGHT be insiginficant for Australian street driving if you already have well sorted sports shocks and springs.
Also, considering that Acura markets the TSX/Euro as a PRESTIGE SPORTS sedan, its decision to add little VISIBLE touches like the front strut brace could have more to do with marketing than with the difference they make to handling.
Assuming that is correct, the difference between a 1mm increase and a 4 or even 3mm increase to the diameter of the rear bar ONLY is potentially huge as far as the balance of the car is concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
since we're all on the topic on rear sway bars, stock is 15mm, whiteline is 18mm and the comptech is 22mm.
is thicker better?i know the materials used and the weight and the structure(solid or hollow) makes a difference.
im contemplating between the whiteline and the comptech swaybar.
i believe martell has a comptech swaybar.
im wondering whats the difference between the 2 and which is more beneficial?
Yfin, I have already bought the Tein Flex and the EDFC to go with, just waiting for delivery. Now I am just wondering if the ride will be as comfi as the stock suspension. I can understand the handlling will be much better with coilovers, and I also love how comfi it feels driving the Euro now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
The Acura TSX is made in Japan. And the Euro R has a factory strut brace. Or is that just for looks?Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
http://www.j-garage.com/pic/1/accord/7.jpg
To Acura (America) specifications? Anyhow, I asked specifically about the strut brace, rather than the car. When a car is 'Made in' a certain country, it doesn't necessarily mean that every part of it was made and/or installed in that country, but I'm sure you knew that.Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Anyway, I find it interesting that you keep on emphasising my peripheral points while avoiding the substantive point. Are you really interested in the substance of this discussion or are you just trying to win an argument for the sake of it?
Firstly, please read my posts carefully before attempting witty sarcasm. There is a difference between something being done "more for" marketing (as in to let people 'see' that the TSX does in fact offer more than the budget-oriented Euro Accord) and being done "just for looks". But I'm sure you knew that.Quote:
And the Euro R has a factory strut brace. Or is that just for looks?
The last time I checked, the Euro R did not have a factory strut brace. Where did that picture come from? Is it a Euro R? What model-year is it from?
Btw, do the TSX and R have an 18mm rear swaybar with a standard front swaybar?
most of the handling queries have been covered but perhaps i can add something of my own experience , On my dc5 i originally bought king lowering sprins ( just for lowered looks ) i found that the car was lower but it made no difference to how fast a could take corners ( perhaps a little less body roll ) i found with this setup that at about 140 km/h the car would get a hop to it ( to the pint were it felt quite danferous ) and i had to slow down to get the car to be more stable . I then went to a set of tein HA coilovers , this got rid of the hopping and i was able to go around corners much faster , I then added whiteline adjustable front and rea sway bars and this made the biggest imrovement for cornering speeds , the car was nice and flat so this allowed me to spend countless hours adjusting the coilovers to suit my taste , unforuntely after about a year of driving the car had shaken me to bits and i got a sore back from it ( i am a sales rep and do heaps of km's ) i now own a euro luxury and dont plan on modifying the sussy at all , however based on my previous experince with modding sussy;s i would start with sway bars ...
Well you should check again. I have provided you with a picture of a Euro R engine bay - I am not going to spend more time on this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
I haven't measured them and I don't plan to. The stock CL9 front sway is very thick - will be interesting to see a review of someone who has changed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
I tried, but there is only one engine bay picture of the R on the Honda Japan website and it's very narrow, so the tops of the struts are not visible, and neither is anything resembling a strut brace. I've seen other Euro R pictures in the past where it is quite clear that there is no strut brace. I've also asked a local importer of JDM Honda parts about a Euro R strut brace and he says the Euro R does not have one.Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Thanks for the photo, but as far as anybody relying only on the photo is concerned, that could well be an after-market strut brace. That's why I asked where the photo is from and what exact model it's supposed to be from. If it's too much trouble for you to answer, that's fine. But don't get your knickers in a knot when somebody inquires about the basis for your sweeping statements.Quote:
I have provided you with a picture of a Euro R engine bay -
That's understandable, since you've already spent too much time on peripheral points while avoiding the substantive point.Quote:
I am not going to spend more time on this point....
In that case, what was the relevance of you pointing out that the TSX has a bigger rear sway bar than the Euro? Without knowing it's exact size and the size of the front bar, your comment about the TSX rear bar is totally irrelevant to the suggestion that replacing the rear swaybar alone with the 18mm Whiteline swaybar can be detrimental to the Euro's balance.Quote:
I haven't measured them and I don't plan to. ...
You shouldn't get so nippy when somebody questions the logic behind your statements. That's quite normal in intelligent discussions.
Yes it would. But bear in mind that thickness does not necessarily equal stiffness. An upgrade bar could well be the same thickness but stiffer or more progressive.Quote:
The stock CL9 front sway is very thick - will be interesting to see a review of someone who has changed it.
Picture is from here:
http://www.j-garage.com/honda/accord/euror.htm
How about you link to pictures of the CL7 without a strut brace?
As to the "substance" - I agree with you regarding Honda and Mugen development - they know plenty - but you need to keep in mind the reasons for having the Euro set up a particular way. It does not necessarily correlate to what Mugen or Honda think is absolutely best for handling. A balance is usually struck based on a lot of factors including target market, what is "safe" for the average (or bad) driver, and yes - cost. You might think a strut brace is minimal cost to Honda per vehicle - but over the production life of a car it is not insignificant. It does not mean Honda thought a strut brace is not worth while. The Euro R/TSX has extra bracing, thicker sway and different suspension for a reason. Sure some of this has to do with marketing – but more has to do with performance. The Australian market Euro is built to a relatively low price. Lets not forget that.
The fact Mugen does not sell strut braces or sway bars for the CL9 is a weak argument– it doesn't mean anything. I also disagree with your point about Eibach distributors refusing to sell a rear sway bar without the purchaser buying the front sway. That doesn't mean you need both and somehow the handling of a "finely tuned car" will be upset.Like I said – the front sway is very thick stock and you have plenty of Euro owners who have nothing but praise for the rear sway bar mod alone.
You also have owners who have much stiffer and infinitely better suspension than I do who later add the rear sway and love it (eg baboo). This should hopefully answer your argument about why I have not tested my new suspension without the whiteline bar and strut brace. I don't need to. I totally stand by my comment that the $200 Whiteline rear sway is better handling bang for buck than your $1600 suspension.
Lastly, if you think Eibach is so focused on selling products that must "go together" (eg rear and front sway sold together) so as to not upset the fine balance of the car – why do they sell springs which they say can be used with stock shocks (prokit)? That is hardly an ideal set up for a company focused on ensuring the "fine balance" is retained.
Does anyone have anything else to say about lowering the Euro - I think this thread has almost run its course...
i think all that needs to be said has been said... we'll all just have to agree to disagree on some points.
I will add 2 cents more , this is just my opion and is not intended to offend any one . the best way to work out what improves the performance of your car is to try different things and see hwat it does to your car , not everyone has the money to try different things so they end up on forums seeking advice on what works , unfortunatley i have noticed over the last couple of years that the advice some members give seems to be based on what brands are the coolest or what other people have said . When you do get advice from someone who has actually tried something they often seem to get flamed becuase they may not agree with what brand or advice that is trendy at the momment .
now that i have sid that i juts want to say that the euro is a great car for ride compfort which is why i would have thought most people buy them , however they are a great handling car out of the box and the chassis works extremely well on tight corners ( believe me i have tested it ) in these honda cars the chassis i believe is the most important factor given that our cars are price sesitive . if you want to get better handling out of your car i understand totally why you would want to do that , just beware that you will probably be trading off ride quality ( softness ) in order to get it , also please do some research into how suspension works either before you changethings or ( probably like most of us ) after you have spent the money based on all sorts of advice and then work out that the car is actually worse now .
seriously thats why most of us have spent so much money on our suspensions over the years , coz we didnt get it right the first time , however it did make us learn how everything worked . i tell you there is nothing sadder than spending several grand on new coilovers etc and finding the car is not better or parhaps worse , but it does make you think about what to do to set things up properly
not taking sides just adding my 2 cents worth
Thank you. I hope that wasn't too much trouble for you. I will make further enquiries to get a part number for that brace.Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Btw, the fact that the Euro R in that picture does have a strut brace does not invalidate the presumption that strut braces are not ALWAYS of significant handling benefit, depending on other aspects of the chasis and suspension. There are plenty of more expensive and more sports-dedicated street cars than the Euro R that do not have strut braces.
If I could find it, I would have already posted it and I wouldn't have asked you for a source.Quote:
How about you link to pictures of the CL7 without a strut brace?
Of course it doesn't. But it CAN be indicative of what they think can be convincingly demonstrated to provide good balance and performance value for the road. That's why I raised the question, which you seem to have interpreted as an absolute and definitive statement on my part.Quote:
[size=3][font=Times New Roman]It does not necessarily correlate to what Mugen or Honda think is absolutely best for handling.
Where did I suggest that that is what I think? Your cost argument doesn't explain why Mugen, which lives off selling performance UPGRADES for Hondas, doesn't see value in making swaybars or a strut brace for the Euro, especially given its demonstrated capacity to demand high premiums for its products from customers i.e. its capacity to pass on the cost to the customer PLUS make a substantial profit. It also doesn't explain why Honda Japan, Honda Europe and even Acura don't offer upgraded swaybars (or a strut brace in the case of Europe and japan) for the CL9, but they do offer the more expensive shocks and springs combination.Quote:
A balance is usually struck based on a lot of factors including target market, what is "safe" for the average (or bad) driver, and yes - cost. You might think a strut brace is minimal cost to Honda per vehicle - but over the production life of a car it is not insignificant.
This point is irrelevant to what I've been saying, unless you have figures for the spring and damping rates and the front and rear swaybar diameters of the TSX.Quote:
The Euro R/TSX has extra bracing, thicker sway and different suspension for a reason.
Quote:
You also have owners who have much stiffer and infinitely better suspension than I do who later add the rear sway and love it (eg baboo).
Isn't Baboo the guy who was tracking his car? I made it clear that a very stiff set-up, including stiffer swaybars, can be of significant benefit on the track. Another point you have to keep in mind is that people who have adjustable coilovers can cure an imbalance caused by a disproportionately thicker rear swaybar by appropriate adjustment of the coilovers. Of course, the car would be closer to perfection if there was no imbalance to cure in the first place i.e. if the front and rear swaybar were well matched to each other.
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I totally stand by my comment that the $200 Whiteline rear sway is better handling bang for buck than your $1600 suspension.
You might well be right, especially if you place greater emphasis on the buck than the bang. For me, I first look at how much bang I want and then for the best price available for that amount of bang. If I was to decide that bigger swaybars and a strut brace are worthy mods to the Euro for my needs, I would be looking at more solid manufacturers (as far as engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality are concerned), such as Honda (perhaps from the Type R), Mugen, Swift, Cusco etc. I know I'll have to pay more, but I have little doubt that I'll get better bang and piece of mind than with Whiteline.Quote:
That's a poor analogy. A better analogy would be "why do they sell Pro-Kit rear springs to go with the standard front springs or vice versa". Of course, you couldn't make that analogy, because they don't.Quote:
[font=Times New Roman][size=3]Lastly, if you think Eibach is so focused on selling products that must "go together" (eg rear and front sway sold together) so as to not upset the fine balance of the car – why do they sell springs which they say can be used with stock shocks (prokit)?
Also, the Pro-Kit springs are DESIGNED to work with the stock shocks, just like the Eibach rear swaybar is designed to work with the Eibach front swaybar. The Pro-Kit springs are designed for people who want to lower their car without spending too much and who aren't very demanding as far as handling is concerned. Having said that, they cannot disrupt the balance of the car. That's to be distinguished from their reduction of travel, which in turn can reduce composure on bad roads, comfort and the life of the standard shocks, which are designed on the presumption that they won't see so much compression in daily driving.
Eibach also make a more aggressive spring kit (I think it's called the Sportline), which is designed to go with more aggressive dampers.
A lot of what you just said has to do with your brand perceptions. If whiteline were charging $500 for their bar and it was black and shiny with gold embossing maybe your perceptions of that particular brand would change? - I really don't see how you claim to know the relative competencies of each of the firms you mentioned in relation to their "engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality" - you percieve the japanese manafacturers to be better obviously but at the end of the day a great number of ppl on this forum have installed a whiteline swaybar and been very happy with the results IMO that's all that matters.Quote:
If I was to decide that bigger swaybars and a strut brace are worthy mods to the Euro for my needs, I would be looking at more solid manufacturers (as far as engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality are concerned), such as Honda (perhaps from the Type R), Mugen, Swift, Cusco etc. I know I'll have to pay more, but I have little doubt that I'll get better bang and piece of mind than with Whiteline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
True - no argument but it does come stock on that car so I think it is safe to presume there is a handling benefit and it is not pure marketing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
You focus too much on what Mugen is or isn't doing. Who really cares what they make for the CL9? And in terms of Honda - they do not appear to be huge on offering products to meet the 'aftermarket' buyers - for any of their cars.
By the way - Acura dealers sell Comptech parts in the USA for the TSX including a sway bar. If installed by the dealer it retains the Honda warranty. So Acrua does offer upgraded swaybars in USA - just not manufacturerd by Honda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov
That's cool - rate a product without trying it and just buy JDM. I have nothing but respect for Whiteline and their products after trying the sway bar. They also have some great technical people who are very happy to help people looking to modify their cars.
This is a good thread - some healthy discussion. I am a little surprised though that people need convincing that a thicker rear sway bar is great for the road ;) (not just the track). I haven't experienced any downsides with mine and certainly nothing detrimental to the "fine balance" of the car.
I am very well aware of Whiteline's manufacturing standards. I've been to their 'factory', I've had them do wheel allignments for me, and I've bought a rear sway bar and front and rear strut braces from them. I've read and seen plenty about the (non)approach to quality from their people. And I have enough general knowledge about cars and handling to safely conclude that any company which increases the rear swaybar diameter by about 25% or more yet retains the standard swaybar on a car with chasis balance as critically acclaimed as the Euro's is quite far from having a perfectionist approach to chasis tuning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
I've also read a few other people's experiences with Whiteline quality standards. I've had experience with genuine Honda build quality on various vehicles. I've also undertaken and completed extensive academic study of Japanese, Australian, American, German and international engineering and manufacturing standards, including those of the motor industry. I know that Australian and American standards are generally well below Japanese standards, and that even the Germans are behind the Japanese in many instances, especially when it comes to how much quality you get for each of your dollars.
I have a rough but sufficient idea of the relative development budgets of Whiteline and the Japanese manufacturers I've mentioned, including the volume of Honda tuning each of them undertakes. I've also discussed these matters with two very reputable people who specialise in repairing, rebuilding and reluctantly modifying Hondas, as well as one person who specialises in modifying Japanese cars for road and track. I might still be wrong, but my opinion will not be easily changed by one or two posters who not only are not 'expert' test drivers or automotive professionals, but who, more importantly, have failed to back their sweeping assertions with relevant comparative analysis and/or logical arguments. I'm sure you'll find that quite reasonable. :)
aleksandrov - fact is you have not tried these mods on your Euro. You don't even have your Mugen suspension yet. How about you reserve your judgement until you try it. And just because Mugen doesn't make something - it doesn't correlate to it being a waste of time for the road.
We are all just hacks here who enjoy our cars. No one I know here claims to be a professional road tester for McLaren or Ferrari. Some of us can comment, however, as to the impact of various modifications to our vehicles based on subjective opinion. That should be enough for most of us. Totally fine by me if you think a sway bar alone (no other suspension mods) is detrimental to the Euro on the road. Just try it first. :thumbsup:
What JUDGMENT would that be, exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Where did I say that it does? You are either reading my posts selectively to suit your pre-determined and overly personalised arguments or you are struggling with logical deduction.Quote:
And just because Mugen doesn't make something - it doesn't correlate to it being a waste of time for the road.
To raise the prospect that A could be indicative of B and to give specific reasons for saying that is not the same as saying that A guarantees B. :)
this is just going around in circles guys :rolleyes: