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theres this thing on these forums going around where people saying the b18b block is stronger? eg: to support turbo. can anyone provide hard evidence to support this case? :confused:
need to know, so i know whether i should get dc4 gsi or dc2 vtir. (eventually turbod t28) :p bang 4 buk wise. :thumbsup:
any proffessional advise could be helpful!
:rolleyes:
il say it again b18b
dc4 yo
I think one of the limitations that was mentioned was the fact that the VTEC head will flow better than the GSi head ?
but is the b18b head restrictive in anyway?
or it just doesnt flow as good as a vtec head with normal atmospher pressure.
remember the engine is no longer sucking air in.
do the same pricipals apply to a boosted motor same as a N/A???
vtec was designed as a means of getting the most power out of a small capacity motor with out the need to boost, so y go and boost it, y didnt honda bring the option of a boosted vtec?
these motors make great power NA thats the way they were designed.
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's stronger... most people claim that because the b18b is lower compression
yes, i always thought that ppl chose b18b for forced induction because of the lower compression too :)Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman
i could be wrong...
well ill be getting internals done too, so it wont make a difference will it? strength wise. or heard flow wise? or is the vtec head still an advantage... turbo vtec'
fly have a search on the net to see if the vtec head has an advantage under boost to the b18b.
i have been told i doesnt by 2 tuners.
i was all set to buy a recon flowed b16a head for my gsi, but i back off after speaking to these blokes, they said the difference it will make would not be worth the price,
boost and vtec are 2 different methods of extraction max power out a small capacity engine.
if you look at cam specs then you will c the difference between a cam profile designed for a turbo motor and 1 for max N/A power the duration @ .050" is a lot lower on the turbo cams on non vtec vehicles.
i been told the b18b is much safer to turbo and in the long run you will get more out of it
Vtec seems to limit the amount of boost you can run, assuming both gsi and vti-r engines would get new internals, the vtec cam profile would be to high to run higher boost, end up with valve float in high rpm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyBear
what is valve floating?
lets put it this way... the same people that say the b18b is stronger and that the vtec head isn't better for turbo are usually the same ones that say you can't turbo high compression motors.
I'd rather have a turbo b18c than a b18b any day of the week
True that...Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman
A blown b18c would hammer a blown b18b with the same turbo setup so easily with its hands tired around it back:cool:
show us the proof and we'll all believe ya. Im not sayin its not possible but this thread is about proof not fantacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitZ
i think theres a few vtirs here who offered to run u? but u said ur engine blew last time out?Quote:
Originally Posted by GSI-PSI
Quote:
Originally Posted by pornstar
haha i dont rememba anyone sayin they wanna run me but id be happy 2 run them, not sayin im gonna win or anythin, just see what the difference is :D
BTW who were they??????????
to give you guys an idea, rolling start i blew a stock gtr32 godzilla and a twin turbo supra. The supra guy then told me he ran a 13.3 at calder the week before.
How much boost are you running GSI-PSi and
1) How much power are you making at the wheels
2) What is your best 1/4 mile time (post 60 foot and mph please)
There's a few turbo dc2 vti-rs around here so i'd like to compare.
Here you go Wyn, its from GSI-PSI's threadQuote:
Originally Posted by GSI-PSI
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showpos...3&postcount=71
How on earth did you come up with that bullshit?Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyBear
Regards Dyno Dave
i think he has a bucket full of it somewhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDave
seriosly folks, you are all getting it quite messed up.
the ONLY reason a B18B might be "better" for boost is that it is lower compression STOCK.
the rest of the engine is crap, the rods are weaker, the head is weaker, the whole engine is not designed for power, even the water pump is designed for low RPM/low power operation.
now, a B18C - is desinged for higher RPM/higher power operation.
the head is much stronger, the pistons better design, the crank is better, the engine is BETTER and it is NOT too high compression for turboing provided you have it tuned.
now if you are going to REBUILD it with forged internals,
there is NO way you would use a B18B over a B18C.
ever.
the ONLY reason you would use a B18B block was if you got it for $100, re-sleeved it and were using a Type R crank with aftermarket rods and pistons with Type R head...
(fly-vti - there is no reson to get a crap GSi just to get slightly lower compression engine.)
tinkerbell, you make it sound like a b18b is not worth boostin, but ey...look at mine for instance.
every1 was puttin shit on my setup b4 theyve seen the power figures...and also stating that it wouldnt last a month, 5000km etc etc...
now its been over 3months since gettin my car back, and its still going strong as ever, and the power figures are quite impressive to say the least.
i rekon its worth every penny.
Why does it always turn into a GSI bashing arguement.
How many current factory turbo hondas are there??
NONE,
but it proves that if you wanna make power by staying N/A you can, or if you want FI then you can make power too.
both have its ups and downs.
ITS YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE
no1s bashing gsi's, but to compare or say its better than a vtir boosted is when its getting silly
i dont mean their shit, not at all, its whe n ur comapring to vtir output, the vtir will always output more if all else is equal
Since then i ran the times in my signature below 13.8 @ 103mph. That engine was old with high km (189,XXXkm) and never really went that good. Now i have the original engine that was in the white teg that got written off. Im yet to run it but it will be taken to heathcote on 26th dec for the summer nationals. Im currently getting 132kw at the rubber on 10psi and its definately pulling much harder than the other engine. Interesting to see what times i get once my lsd is put in as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNIT
get the lsd before you run.
you might find your self spinning tyres through out every gear,
my mates pulsar has that problem, best he can do is high 13s @ 110mph+
it hasn't, maybe GSi owners are overly sensitive?Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
Q_ball - the question wasn't "is a b18b is worth boostin"
it was
i was outlining (with brief evidence) why IMO the B18C is 'stronger'...Quote:
Originally Posted by fly_vti
do you suggest that based on the evidence, the B18B is actually stronger? if so, why?
I will get some times for a stock internal turbo DC2 and post up here once he gives me permission :)
How much boost are you running GSI-PSI?
drag time and boost numbers dont tell you how 'strong' an engine is Wyn...Quote:
Originally Posted by wynode
besides, i ran 13.7 on a stock B20B block and everyone says they are 'weak'
Everyone says that because they ARE weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
Cylinders go out of round. Just because they may not crack, doesnt mean you are extracting 100% power from your motor.
Did you bother to do a leakdown test.
Compression test wont give you an idea on ring seal quality.
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
all i was saying is that you cant say an engine is 'strong' because it can do 13 second 1/4 miles?
tinkerbell::
nah man, not saying that the b18b is stronger than the b18c or n e thin like that...i understand and agree with everything that ur sayin..
jst sounded like u wouldnt bother with a b18b thats all
well, if i had an option (like fly-vti does) i would go with B18C as first choice,
that is all - if i had the option
did you buy your DC4 then decide to boost it?
did PSI-GSI already have a B18B turbo kit when he got his new DC4?
history is responsible for some of our 'choices' ;)
would a b20vtec handle a bit of beating every now again... or only on limited occasions..
under boost? i doubt it...Quote:
Originally Posted by FR33K
IMO either boost the engine to a sensible limit that is IN your car - or sell it (the car) and buy something more reliable and or reputeable for your aim :D
yeh, i had a choice of going typr, vtir and gsi - i always had my mind set on boosting my honda :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
i think every one had a choice when they got their cars, no one is forced to buy a car!!!
i was thinking of boosting when i got my gsi, but now i decided not to, but i dont wanna go vtec either.
i can achive what im aiming for with a gsi.
i used to think that Hondas in general where SLOW (not just nonvtecs)
my last car was doin mid 12s id rip 99.9% of cars that wanted to run me on the street.
i know my gsi will never get to 12s hahaha.
my goal is high 13s NA, and when i reach it ill be happy.
I'm interested in comparing 'stock engine' vs 'stock engine' under boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
ppl must know to make the coments right, must be evidence of one or the other
The EXQZIT Civic runs a B20B block with B16A head doesn't it? Does it get rebuilt often or is it's motor fairly strong?Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
running a stock B20B block is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by pillow
i thought it was a resleeved LS/VTEC?
As said previously 10psi, Im on your side wyn, id like to make comparasins as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by wynode
well i guess you could go the other way to.
what would a gsi be like runing high comp???
The car is running a B20B with B16A head, microtech computer, M&W coils x4, full exhaust without cat obviously, Edelbrock manifold and throttle body, Circuit worx stage 2 axles and spool. Big Garret turbo, HKS 60mm wastegateQuote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
^^ Posted by Online in the EXQZIT pb thread
if you purchased a b18b over a b18c with the intent on boosting it and making more power with the same work, you were misinformed by someoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Q_ball
this is a bit of a sh1t fight isnt it?
the be all and end all of ANY turbo motor........... cash in equalls power out.
sure the B18B may be weaker (dont know if this is true or not?) but an upgrade in internals would solve this. (correct?) An upgrade in internals on a b18c changes it charictoristics ( correct?)
brings me back to what i said
'$=Kw'
if you want to spend a little less on purchasing the engine (assuming a b18b cost less)and put a little more into moding it im sure a good result will be acheived. :thumbsup: or :thumbdwn:
OMG !Quote:
Originally Posted by superR
Its only taken 49posts, but at long last, the ONLY intelligent post in this thread!
y thank you.
i aint no mechanic.... but hey, its baisic knowledge. i am a building superviser and the same equation applies: big $ = a nicer home. simple really.
Now this is the original post that started this thread off and I must admit I misunderstood that the question is in regards to internal 'strength' as opposed to which one will yield more power 'all other factors equal'
Now tinkerbell has mentioned that the b18b's internals aren't stronger.........but is there any hard evidence to support this (I recall you made a good post re the head of the b18c and its strenths over the b18b), but what about the bottom end?Quote:
Originally Posted by fly_vti
Oh and here's the info about a stock internal vti-r with just spoon cams + toda adj cam gears
Edit: Added info about spoon cams + toda cam gearsQuote:
13.722 @ 102.31 mph
60" 2.209
i made 170.6kws atw
actuator problem aswell. so boost comes on real late
i ran street legal semi slicks.
That's all good and great but we are talking stock for stock :PQuote:
Originally Posted by superR
ok, did you know that the B18B only uses 8mm rod bolts and the B18C uses 9mm rod bolts?Quote:
Originally Posted by wynode
did you also know that the B18C has a bearing cap bridge and the B18B doesnt.
did u all know that it only takes 1 phonecall to find out which engine produces more power stock. There is proof at AVO that a vtec was getting 140kw at the wheels and mines getting 132kw at the wheels on the same boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
did u also know that stock gsi's aint that strong because i have blown 2 of them, 1 stock and 1 on boost.
did u also know that every engine reacts differently to different drivers and how much they cane the f@#k outa the car.
did u know that two cars from factory can run completely different depending on who run them in.
did u know that this thread is getting more and more gay each day.
If only we had more constructive replies like tinkerbellsQuote:
Originally Posted by GSI-PSI
in addition,
here is an interesting article comparing the VTEC head vs non-VTEC head:
http://www.team-integra.net/sections...ArticleID=1000
it is well worth registering for that site just for the articles.
if you want to put down the gsi integras down tinkerbell then maybe you should line up with one and see how good you will go.
my gsi is in the shop and be out in a few weeks with a full turbo setup if you can show me yours is much better then well meet in a few weeks for a test run.
in my eyes a gsi is much better to turbo because it doesnt mess with the computer in terms of the vtec kicking in.
vtec is to be vtec thats it ... putting forced induction on a car that already has its own form of "boost" can upset the fuel and air delivery causing too much combustion in the chambers.
gsi hasnt got that and i believe turboin them is much better ...
to some people i could be wrong but integra gsi and ls turbo go pretty high up in the ranks when it comes to turboing hondas.
if you force too much pressure on your motor by making a vtec and turbo kick in it wont last very long ...its already gotten into race mode after 4000RPM and making a turbo push it even harder doesnt sound really pretty.
but maybe we should line up ... im in sydney as well so maybe we can have a run to stop people in general from putting down the gsi integras.
Hes not "putting down" the B18B engine mate, the original question in the thread was which engine is stronger, tinkerbell has simply given real facts as to the differences in each engine.
The fact of the matter is, the B18B does not flow as well as the B18C, read the tech article, there are restrictions in the B18B engine and differences in width and size of parts.
No one said the B18B was a crappy engine, sure you can make some good power, but the B18C is a 'better' engine in terms of the original question that was asked ;)
You do realise the later model turbo engines brought out by toyota, nissan and even mitsubishi came out with the manufacturers versions of variable cam timing (vvti, nvcs, mivec) and such?Quote:
Originally Posted by integrity
mate - i have run 13.7 in a Normally Aspirated LS Integra.Quote:
Originally Posted by integrity
since these turbo GSi's seem to be able to run 13.8's or so, then i feel pretty comfortable...
what is your best time?
and as for this comment:
are you for real?!?!??! you can't be serious? :wave:Quote:
in my eyes a gsi is much better to turbo because it doesnt mess with the computer in terms of the vtec kicking in.
im not stirring anyone..
but a b16a with 5psi in an EM1 normally nets a mid 13 sec 1/4 mile on st tyres..
LVNIT just has to prove it...........
Ill think that goes beyond your phone call comparision to AVO who utilises log style manifold....
its like comparing mugen extractors and hurricane headers
And sorry to burst your bubble...
http://www.avoturboworld.com/news/honda_a4_small.pdf
chekc the link out.. Teg with stage one AVO kit produces over 240whp!
who's bubble do you think you are bursting by quoting *claimed* HP figures from a manufacturers website?
Read below
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSI-PSI
oh, OK,
well here is a B18C that makes over 600whp
http://www.evolutionmr.net/pics/turbocivic/DSC01539.JPG
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1212667
relax fellas...lets jst all sell our 200+kw hondas and buy WRXs...lol - 99 models hehe :p
At least we would have traction, its unknown to me at the moment :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by sever_all_ties
i have not seen any vvti, mivec motors running a factory turbo.
as far a a nissan motor running a turbo the latest sr20det to come out only had intake cam advance(timing was advanced on intake cam)
but the R34 range did have Vneo RB's running turbos.
but the smaller 1.6lt and 2.0lt motors came out in 3 different versions, turbo(det), N/A(de) and NEO (vvt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
and and more agressive cams??
as you all can see the nissan variable valve timing injection thing is built WITH a turbo and factory configured to run WITH a turbo
ahonda however is not made for aturbo especially with the vtec being so combustive in the engine after 4 grand.
tinkerbell i used to own a Ls integra and was considering turboing it ...
measure the power to weight ratio for the LS and the GSI integra
almost the same motor but GSI has 107 kw compared to the LS that has 96 kw.
and in regards to AVO showing the stats... they have literally showed me the stats of a turbo interga pulling inbetween 115 to 150 kw at the wheels ...
thats is easy 13's...
tell me how good you go on the street?
how well do you think you can do with a GTR or street tuned S15 ....?
you pulling 13's in your NA ls sounds ok have you got the time sheet??
also you have probably done all you can to it ... im onyl turboing with standard internals ..
jsut watch what you say because one day a gsi turbbo will be burning rubber in your face taking off
so do you think VTEC would be a negative?Quote:
Originally Posted by integrity
seems most people would disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion... however mis-informed that is...
both my Integras, LS and VTiR, have had over 120kW at the wheelsQuote:
and in regards to AVO showing the stats... they have literally showed me the stats of a turbo interga pulling inbetween 115 to 150 kw at the wheels ...
yes it is.Quote:
thats is easy 13's...
relevence?Quote:
how well do you think you can do with a GTR or street tuned S15 ....?
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/image.p...ine=1109904764Quote:
you pulling 13's in your NA ls sounds ok have you got the time sheet??
nah, stock B20B internals i.e. same block as CRVQuote:
also you have probably done all you can to it ...
just B16A head with ITR bolts-ons = hardly "all you can to it"
yes, until then...Quote:
jsut watch what you say because one day a gsi turbbo will be burning rubber in your face taking off
the new evo 9 runs with mivec...the late model supras ran with vvti.Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
a gsi running standard internals just with abolt on turbo and minor boost is enough to pull that time if not less if driven properly.
the relevance to seeing how you would do a against street tuned cars is that most street tuned cars average to run 14's or 13's ... thats why a et on the track and a time on the street is different ....
just wanted to see how a N/A would do
btw AVO stats are correct... being put on the dyno with a gsi on dyno pulling inbetween 120 to 150 kw depends on air temperature , condition of motor and tuning etc...
evo9 does have mivec but still makes same power as the previous non-mivec model.
so it only proves that the mivec makes no difference to performance under F/I
pretty generous use of the word "proves" there locote...
for example, taking the second article about the evo 9 i found,Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
it states:
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring...ishi-evo-9.htmQuote:
Perhaps the biggest new feature to the Evolution's 1997cc powerplant is the adoption of variable valve timing on the intake system, or MIVEC as the Japanese car maker calls it (Mitsubishi Innovative Valve timing Electronic Control system).
The MIVEC system helps the 16-valve 4G63 engine liberate more power at higher revs and more torque at lower revs,
i guess peak power figures "prove" nothing eh?
yeah but engines weith VVT-I or MIVEC variable valve timing that come standard with turbo are made to work "WITH" a turbo.
honda motors arent.
our V-TEC motor is made to kick in with our own type of boost which is V-TEC but overall the GSI doesnt have that restriction ... its naturally aspirated with no V-TEC so it can continue going up in the revs with no extra boost whatsoever.
the vtir motor is a good motor no doubt about it ... but in terms of turboing a n/a motor out of the 2 i would go the GSI ....
they both arent meant to be turboed YES but the gsi has no hold back ...
even though it has been assumed a VTIR will pulll more power how long can the engine last being put under the pressure of V-TEC and boost?
It has a hold back, its been said 50 billion times in this thread. The B18B does not produce as much power above 6000rpm, for the simple fact if does not flow as well farken.
VTEC isnt a restriction! YOU can turbo your stock GSI and when the turbo hondas @ WSID is organised, im sure there will be a b18c there who you can race and take you to school.
Its been documented, its all over the internet and the people here who know their stuff are even telling you. This is not to say the B18B is a crap engine, because its not. But the thread is comparing it to the b18c, which happens to be better :)
Quote from 'Speed' magazine 021 in the tech torque section ("She's in there. I soarer!" letter) "You are right, the vvt-i 1jz-gte is an extremely elusive beast. They are, however, a magic piece of kit, addressing the (very few) shortcomings of the original 1jz-gte twin-turbo design and improving torque, fuel economy and - even though Toyota doesn't admit it - even power. Side by side, we had a dead stock vvt-i Soarer clock the standing quarter mile in 13.8sec, while the twin-turbo version struggles around the low-14s. That should tell you something useful, hopefully"
From what ive heard, to put a turbo with vtec together just takes tuning like everything else. In my opinion if you start with a better engine, then you'll end up with a better engine mod for mod.