Turbo B16 Issues

Hi Fellas

Got a fair amount of things that need to be sorted out, so please only post if you know what you are talking about.

The car just isnt making any power, im still using stock clutch and giving the car shiit, the clutch doesnt slip & the wheels dont spin. Thats my definition of not making any power anyway, Weq agrees that something is holding it back, after he drove it last night.

The turbo does hold boost all the way to redline however, its running 11pounds and from about 3200rpm I have full boost. There is no kick in the arse, no wheel spin, nothing that should be expected from a FWD making a decent amount of power. It would seem that its making less power then Weqs old 130kw D16, but he wont admit it, even though he knows it :p

ECU values change depending on the air aswell, during the day the car runs quite well and everything is good. But during the night, it runs lean again, 12.2-12.5 a/f ratio in boost unfortunatly, which is giving me the focking shits..

So here is the setup, feel free to add your inputs, because im really clueless at the moment ;)

Blox manifold w/ external wastegate
RB20DET T3 turbo - 16v-10 for reference
2.5" intercooler piping
600x300 intercooler
450cc injectors
2.5" downpipe to stock cat to 2.25" piping - yes i know needs to be changed
P28 ecu using Uberdata

I really need to get a dyno reading to see what it actually happening, but until that does, this is all the information I have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LVNIT

But during the night, it runs lean again, 12.2-12.5 a/f ratio in boost unfortunatly, which is giving me the focking shits..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LVNIT

I really need to get a dyno reading to see what it actually happening, but until that does, this is all the information I have.

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how are you measuring you A/F's?

is there air temp correction with Uberdata? how do you mean

Quote:

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ECU values change depending on the air aswell

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any reason you have not taken it to a dyno?

Only thing i can think of is tune.

Email me the final tune .bin file and i'll take a look for you. If you dont have it, get someone to read the eeprom.
I'm not convinced the tune is correct, and this goes back to the whole tuning without a dyno on the street & freeware bugs argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProECU

Only thing i can think of is tune.

Email me the final tune .bin file and i'll take a look for you. If you dont have it, get someone to read the eeprom.
I'm not convinced the tune is correct, and this goes back to the whole tuning without a dyno on the street & freeware bugs argument.

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Combination – Combination and combination of parts, the setup and tuning….



Personally I think its much more to think that just the tune !!



My brain is ticking away asking questions like



Efficiency of your turbo ! Your using a turbo designed for low revs and a larger engine, I’m assuming you took the turbo off a R32 GTS-T ?

Intake temperatures before and after the cooler and at the intake manifold

Efficiency of your intercooler, flow rate.

Amount of back pressure in the manifold

Amount of boost before the Wastegate and after the Wastegate

You might be blowing 11psi into the engine, but if this isn’t efficient you won’t be going anywhere fast boost is’t boost !

Photo’s of your setup would also help

How are you reading a/f has this been calibrated and by who, to what degree

What fuel are you using, which has a direct relationship to how the car is tuned

Why hasn’t the car never been on a dyno

Has it ever been professionally tuned

What is your base timing, what kind of timing figures are you running between 3000rpm and redline at WOT

Screen capture your fuel and ignition tables and post the numbers on here or attach the tune file.



Regards James

These ARE ALL items relating to a tune
The fact it hasn't been on a dyno is concerning.

in relation to the hardware he has used, it is what it is!
He should still be making better power than he estimates.

LVNIT has PM'd me in the past with further issues, from what I can tell, its tune.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLKCRX

How are you reading a/f has this been calibrated and by who, to what degree

What fuel are you using, which has a direct relationship to how the car is tuned
Why hasn’t the car never been on a dyno
Has it ever been professionally tuned
What is your base timing, what kind of timing figures are you running between 3000rpm and redline at WOT
Screen capture your fuel and ignition tables and post the numbers on here or attach the tune file.

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Lets post screen captures of the fuel and ignition, personally i wouldn’t be blaming it on purely the tune combination is everything

Regards James

Fcuk didnt expect a decent response for once :p

Tinkerbell: I am using a Techedge wideband, it hasnt been on a dyno as I have had work, busy time of the year for me.

BLKCRX: New turbo has been ordered, T3/T4 57trim .63 AR, I tend to think that the turbo is half of the problem IMO

Air/fuel is being measured using a wideband, part throttle done by myself, boost part done by local tuner, only been street tuned so far.

Using 98octane fuel

16 degrees base timing, peak ignition timing of 17 degrees, like i said, yet to get on a dyno.

PROECU: I have had estimates of about 120/130 kw atw with the nissan T3 turbo, that comes from someone heavily involved with hondas. More to the point why I believe the turbo isnt doing me anygood

Most of the issues I have had with the freewares, have been sorted out :)

I still dont see the issue with having a car street tuned, its a safe tune without pushing the ignition timing, until i get some dyno time. Different people, different opinions I guess.

James

blah..

the guys is selling the car, the combination is most likely not going to change.
Besides not everyone afford to control the following and to be honest for a low boost road setup, those details are overkill.

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1. Intake temperatures before and after the cooler and at the intake manifold
2. Amount of back pressure in the manifold
3. Amount of boost before the Wastegate and after the Wastegate

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1. Too many variables effect this, turbo exhaust housing, ambient temps, air velocity & temp etc...
2. Again, dependant on too many factors to even care about for a street application, ie, intake manifold chamber & runner sizing, turbo manifold size efficiency, exhaust pipe size etc...
3. again.... too many variables.

I doubt the guy is going to spend several thousands maximising these items. Lets get practical and stop re-hashing engine dynamic THEORIES when even your budget James will not be sufficient to cover all of these items.

Aside from a hardware issue, a dyno run will tell the complete story, I guarantee it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LVNIT

PROECU: I have had estimates of about 120/130 kw atw with the nissan T3 turbo, that comes from someone heavily involved with hondas. More to the point why I believe the turbo isnt doing me anygood

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I use this very same turbo, and make 160kW at 4psi. on a bone stock B16
Explain that one!?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProECU

James

blah..

the guys is selling the car, the combination is most likely not going to change.
Besides not everyone afford to control the following and to be honest for a low boost road setup, those details are overkill.



1. Too many variables effect this, turbo exhaust housing, ambient temps, air velocity & temp etc...
2. Again, dependant on too many factors to even care about for a street application, ie, intake manifold chamber & runner sizing, turbo manifold size efficiency, exhaust pipe size etc...
3. again.... too many variables.

I doubt the guy is going to spend several thousands maximising these items. Lets get practical and stop re-hashing engine dynamic THEORIES when even your budget James will not be sufficient to cover all of these items.

Aside from a hardware issue, a dyno run will tell the complete story, I guarantee it.

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Most likely it seems the car will be staying in my hands, hence I want to fix these things up. I have been offered a Hondata to use for a little while, then the car would be taken up to Sydney for a tune. So whether or not i keep the setup the same and find out the differences with a real tune im not sure.

Im still yet to here much about the turbo used and possibly exhaust sizing, if that has much to do with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProECU

I use this very same turbo, and make 160kW at 4psi. on a bone stock B16
Explain that one!?

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With the same nissan 16v-10 turbo from a RB20det?

if its a .48 exh then yes.
If i was in canberra i'd tune it for free to prove the point.

good to hear ur keeping the car. You'll love it when u get it sorted.

Well fcuked if I know whats going on, its still quick none the less, but its not what it should be :rolleyes:

Im running 11psi ffs, the thing should be a rocket :thumbdwn:

The tune is defaintly not optimal in the upper rpms. but man, the part throttle and low rpm values are spot on. This thing drives like stock, comes into boost like stock and really impresses me.

Its just teh topend. I say he will see a big improvement upping his exhaust size also. Its omly running 2.25" catback atm (2.5" DP) Either way, i think a dyno tune will do it wonders. It really needs some timing up top, but needs to be added in a controlled environment .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProECU

if its a .48 exh then yes.
If i was in canberra i'd tune it for free to prove the point.

good to hear ur keeping the car. You'll love it when u get it sorted.

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lol
hey pro ecu wanna tune my car for free to proove the point lol??? :wave:

i do agree with james and im sure you know yourself that a better result can be acheived with a better turbo more suited to his application and same goes with the exhaust size mentioned by weq......you are no longer dealing with N/A thus the exhaust size needs to be upgraded to the appropriate size. i also agree with proecu, i dyno tune is essential .....help acheive optimum performance with out pushing the engine over the edge.

james

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weq

The tune is defaintly not optimal in the upper rpms. but man, the part throttle and low rpm values are spot on. This thing drives like stock, comes into boost like stock and really impresses me.

Its just teh topend. I say he will see a big improvement upping his exhaust size also. Its omly running 2.25" catback atm (2.5" DP) Either way, i think a dyno tune will do it wonders. It really needs some timing up top, but needs to be added in a controlled environment .

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Haha go my sick part throttle and low rpm values ;) Getting adjustable cam gears like you said and off for a tune.

There is still something holding it back though :confused:

you'll be suprised how responsive turbo cars are to even a slightly leaner mixture.

Dont stress too much, get on a dyno and go from there.

Some people have mentioned a blocked cat, any merit to that claim?

Edit: It would explain why the car feels like its hit a brick wall, all the extra back pressure on the engine...

Have you got a different cat to try out? You have a 2.25" catback right?

Just going to take the exhaust off from the dump, see how i go

Sorry I didnt come out last night mate, had to go out for a family dinner :)

That's cool man, few cars came out, wasnt too bad.


Do you want to try a high flow cat? It's just that driving around with no exhaust and no cat for however short a length of time runs the risk of a massive fine ie 10k for no cat:(

I've got a high flow cat oin my civic you can take off and try on yours to determine if it's the problem or not.

Just going to take it off and drive around the block to see what happens

10k fine is massive :P

Fair enough, you gotta take me for a ride one day:D

Well spent a few hours this weekend on the car in an attempt to work some problems out..

The good: Replaced the old cat with a custom high flow item, checked over all the exhaust for blocks while i was at it. Took the car for a drive and it turned into an animal, the car wheel span everywhere once i hit vtec. So I can only imagine what it will be like once i piss off the small 2.25" exhaust, which in some places is actually 2" and get a larger 3" exhaust on :p

The car will also be off to Dyno Dave in the near future for a tune on possibly Uberdata but more likely Hondata ;)

The bad: The turbo is completely fcuked.. On acceleration blue smoke piles out the exhaust, even on de-acceleration it does the same thing, idle is the same too unfortunatly. Thats the problem when you buy second hand turbos, lesson learnt for next time :thumbsup:

A Garrett T3/T3 57trim .63ar has been ordered so that should fix up that problem.

Bad luck about the turbo man, but other than its sounds awesome!! I can't wait to see this thing with a decent tune and exhaust! Let me know if yoiu need a hand with anything


Brendon

All good

It could just be some oil and shiit burning out of the 'custom' high flow cat haha, who knows, find out soon enough

would be keen to know how the new turbo turns out thats the same turbo im thinking of getting.

No problems at all mate :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LVNIT

A Garrett T3/T3 57trim .63ar has been ordered so that should fix up that problem.

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^^^ is that spose to be Garret T3/T4 57trim .63ar???

so she's running better now ben?
bring her out again on thursday so i can check it out. 'custom' highflow cats are the way to go ;)

just seems weird, when my cat was blocked, i wasnt making any boost at all.

Well I suspected it might have been the turbo, good to see your on the track to sorting things out. Personally though the Garret T3/T4 57trim .63ar is a very common turbo, in fact it’s the turbo that Drag, Fmax, Max-Rev and many USA company’s supply, and it was in fact my 1st turbo 7 yrs ago back in 1999 when I began turboing my 1st Honda… my BLKCRX.

Heres some photo’s of the turbo taken via a very old WEBCAM back then as digital cameras weren’t invited back then, i did how ever have a slighty larger intake cover...

ANYWAY The point to my post… sadly this very popular turbo is very old turbo technology, if it’s the same turbo pictured, here even when I had my 1st turbo it was considered old technology for a turbo, it was cheap then, and even cheaper now, would I recommend the turbo ! HELL NO !

Compared to the Turbos available today I would never recommended anyone use this turbo, there are much better turbos that yes do cost more money, but the performance gains you can get over using a better technology turbo on the same level of boost is amazing. It sounds like your in contact with DynoDave talk to him about what turbo he would use, I’m sure he will recommend and be able to source you a much better turbo which will me a much better solution and provide you with a result you will even be more happy with.


http://blkcrx.hondata.com.au/blkcrx/37.jpg

http://blkcrx.hondata.com.au/blkcrx/38.jpg

http://blkcrx.hondata.com.au/blkcrx/39.jpg

http://blkcrx.hondata.com.au/blkcrx/41.jpg


Regards James

James: Yeah looks to be the same turbo, i will speak to dyno dave on monday afternoon about that and associated problems :) Thanks for the information btw

Muz: Yeah stupid cats, custom high flow is the way to go, until i stop being a cheap arse and buy a good one ;)

I wouldn’t be blaming all the oil blue smoke from the high flow cat, yes new cats smoke for maybe 10min once they get hot the 1st time they burn the oil off, I most certainly thing your problems lie deeper than that.

Iv come across many smoking turbo Hondas with the same problem and its 99% of the time the way the oil drain is into the pan. Oil can ONLY flow downwards it can’t flow upwards and some peoples oil drains are so twisty / loopy and oil can never enter the pan, also the position of the oil drain in the oil pan is very important. If the oil can’t drain out of the turbo correct then the turbo will burn the oil and you will get large amounts of blue smoke.

The other problem could be the turbo its self it might need its seals replacing, or sometimes the build up of oil from the drain can also cause seals to go. There’s a theory that also high oil flow from 2 larger oil feed can hurt a turbo but personally im not a believer of this theory on garret turbos and most of they all have oil restrictors built into the turbos them selves, it’s the drain that is the problem

The other possible place you could be burning oil is for your engine, past the piston rings or via your guides, have / do a compression test, incorrect tuning with or without boost can very quickly cause problems, and also can be responsible for the car feeling very laggy which is one of you symptoms I believe… my advice drive the car like a granny until its diagnosed by a expert and your whole engine and setup is given the over all.

On a side note the standard Honda cat does a very very very very good job at hiding blue white and black smoke !! its very restrictive but very efficient hiding smoke ! iv noticed this time and time again, so problems will appear just by replacing the cat because now you don’t have the standard cat hiding the problem

Typically blue smoke = Oil
White smoke = Water / coolant
Black smoke = to much fuel (Which sometimes is a good thing )

Regards James

So James doesnt look like a retard, I edited my post before I saw him write a response to it :P

Checked the dipstick and the oil is a golden colour, checked for water under the oil cap and it is non existant, checked water level and its the same..

Does anyone know what the **** is going on

When I put my foot on the accelerator and let off on the gas, white smoke comes out..

Now the problem with this is

* The oil is nice and gold, not milky
* The car is not over heating
* The radiator fluid is nice and green
* Radiator overflow bottle has not 'overflowed'
* I have not used any water!! WTFBBQ

Too much oil pressure into turbo oil feed?

Did a compression test just then aswell, compression came up fine

As far as I’m aware and was shown by one of the best and recognized turbo builders around Kyp from advance turbo performance all garret turbos have a oil restrictor within the core chamber which is a brass fitting with a hole the size of a pin prick which regulates how much oil goes into the turbo. I believe your problem lies either in your oil drain not draining effectively enough, or the seals on your turbo are shot ( very possible considering it’s a 2nd hand turbo) iv seen seals go on turbos which are brand new, iv seen seals last for ever, and iv also seen bad oil drains cause turbos to go bad. When I mean bad I mean burn oil / produce smoke. Remember typically you will not notice oil levels drop as it takes a very very small amount of oil to burn and produce a large amount of smoke.

Also recognizing blue / white smoke can be very hard especially during the day oil smoke is white smoke with a blue tinge, remember also when you take your foot off the accelerator it takes a few seconds before you see the smoke out of the exhaust, especially if the car isn’t under load this kinda smoke is very typical of a turbo burning oil.

The other possibility is burning oil from the valve guides / stem seals but I personally have my money on it being a turbo problem



Regards James

Seals are gone, dropped the oil return off the sump into a container and it still pumped out smoke.

Its only happened since I bashed out the insides of the cat (for testing purposes only :)) so that would prove your point that you made earlier about the Honda cat being very good at hiding smoke.

I've also seen smoke showing up when you lift off the throttle as being a valve seal issue.

Actually just thinking about it..

Wouldnt the turbo still throw out a lot of smoke in boost? Why is it that only when I lift off the throttle a whole lot of smoke poors out? Valve seal issue like you just said saxman? :)

friend of mine with a jrsc b16 had the exact problem. Whenever he'd lift off the throttle after getting on it hard, it'd billow smoke out the back. Same with someone else I know with a turbo b16. Valve seals both times. Vacuum from suddenly shutting the throttle body + bad selas = no fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LVNIT

Why is it that only when I lift off the throttle a whole lot of smoke poors out?

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how is your PCV system set up?

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Originally Posted by saxman

friend of mine with a jrsc b16 had the exact problem. Whenever he'd lift off the throttle after getting on it hard, it'd billow smoke out the back. Same with someone else I know with a turbo b16. Valve seals both times. Vacuum from suddenly shutting the throttle body + bad selas = no fun.

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Why the **** would my valve seals suddenly take a dive? Hard to fix? Seriously im so over all this shiit

Tinkerbell: its all stock at the moment, ive heard changing it to an aftermarket setup has had results

i highly doubt ur stem seals are gone. i do agree its a turbo issue, and cats do hide alot of smoke.

did you get a leak down test doen when you had the compression test done?
Chances are your valve seals wouldn't just go unless there was a bit of a preexisting problem. i.e. it was starting to go, the cat was hiding it, changing the cat showed it.

I'd sort out the turbo issue, then go from there.

Spoke to Dyno Dave, seems to be a turbo issue, all good :)

dyno dave is a god

:wave: I'm new with the whole turbo on NA engines, i've spoken to some engineers and mechanics and most of them have talked about installing a T28 turbo of 8psi. One of them said that i need 2 drop compression to at least 8.5 but the last guy i talked to sounded like he knew wats up and said your honda is a high compression engine so its important to maintain high compression, if i were to drop it it shoudln't be any lower than 10.

I've read that some people have had trouble with turbos on their B16's, wat are some tips before I get started on turboing my car provided that the engine will made ready 2 take a turbo as well.

Its pretty clostly the whole thing but i hope its worth it! (if its done right) :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bboy_gadget

:wave: I'm new with the whole turbo on NA engines, i've spoken to some engineers and mechanics and most of them have talked about installing a T28 turbo of 8psi. One of them said that i need 2 drop compression to at least 8.5 but the last guy i talked to sounded like he knew wats up and said your honda is a high compression engine so its important to maintain high compression, if i were to drop it it shoudln't be any lower than 10.

I've read that some people have had trouble with turbos on their B16's, wat are some tips before I get started on turboing my car provided that the engine will made ready 2 take a turbo as well.

Its pretty clostly the whole thing but i hope its worth it! (if its done right) :cool:

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http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22651

have a read through that, and it will help u understand what u need to achieve your goals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bboy_gadget

:wave: I'm new with the whole turbo on NA engines, i've spoken to some engineers and mechanics and most of them have talked about installing a T28 turbo of 8psi. One of them said that i need 2 drop compression to at least 8.5 but the last guy i talked to sounded like he knew wats up and said your honda is a high compression engine so its important to maintain high compression, if i were to drop it it shoudln't be any lower than 10.

I've read that some people have had trouble with turbos on their B16's, wat are some tips before I get started on turboing my car provided that the engine will made ready 2 take a turbo as well.

Its pretty clostly the whole thing but i hope its worth it! (if its done right) :cool:

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There are enough guys on here now that have turboed there B16A engines with no problem's the ones that have had problem's are the ones that DONT LISTEN to the right people they read the threads on forum sites with info that makes no sence.A B16A with a good turbo setup with the correct turbo and manifold and everthing else will make good power for a long time as long as it is TUNED with a good ECU with the correct injectors (not something from a wrecker)will run for many 1000's of klms trouble free.The other reason they blow them up is they get bored with the power and try more boost and then its all over and time for a rebuild then the nice little setup you have is to small to support more power at higher boost pressures.So dude all I can tell you is to research some more and speak to people that have a good rep with this type of work and save your money.
Regards Dyno Dave

people like dyno dave?
lol

Yeh he is right though the more opinons on differing set ups the better.... some will agree with eachother and some will dissagree with eachother, the trick is to find out who is full of crap and who knows what they are talking about.

Thanks guys, I'll will keep on researching, just one query..

Is it better to turbo the B16A with a higher compression or lower coz a few guys I've talked to seemed like they knew wat they were on about but some have said if u run a higher compression u will screw your engine others say its made for that higher compression and you need that..

I can understand that you need that higher compression for the engine design but its a fair argument that it should be decreased for safety reasons... ahh confused!! :confused:

Thanks 4 that thread EGB16A!! :wave:

Thanks Dave 4 your post, haha i read through some posts on here and they talked about nothin but trouble wid turbos.. But if its been done by heaps of peeps and not a prob, then f*k yea i'm goin 2 save coin and represent wid the rest of every1, i'll let u'se all know how it goes!! Thanks again guys! :honda: :D

Hey mate could you start another thread, so i can sort out my shiit without having to go threw 100 different things :)

LVNITS thread ppls.... not bboy's.