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Ok whats the better option to increase handeling, lets put the legal issues aside for now.
i can get a full cage for 2400 with the ceft. required, or i can buy some crazy strut bars (front n rear) for about 1k + shipping then need sway bars n tie rods.
just wondering what you views are on which way to go
IMO a "roll cage" will make the car handle worse...it needs natural flex thru the sussy and chassis to aid in cornerign and balance etc.
just a rear swaybar and rear strut bar + nice sussy / tyres / wheels is enough.
Unless you are doign it "to show off" then you can justify sticking a roll cage in there.
na dun wanna show off, jst make it handel well, y do u say jst rear strut and sway bar????Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
BTW its for a vti teg
why do race cars have roll cages then ?? just for show ??
they stiffen up the whole chassis so the car doesnt have much flex and can b stable at high speeds...
for a street car yes its just for show but if its for track then yes i think go the full cage...
Because most race cars are a tube frame and the roll cage is a part of the frame. What Cartoon is asking about would be an aftermarket roll cage. All it is made to do is go in and bolt wherever it can to help protect the driver. If he were in a really bad accident it wouldn't help as much as a roll cage built in to the frame of the car like in nascar. It might help keep him alive but not help the car one bit. Now if he is just wanting to make the car handle better then just upper and lower, front and rear sway bars will do it along with springs and shocks and a camber/caster kit to align the car. If he wants to build a racecar then the frame is built with 1.75"/+dia5/53"+thick chromoly and bent/welded to form the car. Cost for a 94+ teg about $30K for a rolling chassis.
roll cage is not for handling.......is for drivers safty.....dont mix it up.:)
roll cage will make your car a bit more understeer:D
i think hes right, wtf does a roll cage do? its only there to protect the roof from collapsing on a roll.. thats why they call it a ROLL CAGE. not a handling cage. its to protect driver. if you track your car and drive high speeds, i recommend it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry
All cars here in the U.S. that will be on the race track for street style racing and drag cars that go faster than 11 seconds have to have a 7 point roll cage. Any faster require more points. Now the rules may change at any time and my be different at each venue but that's avg. As for street cars they have nothing and it's illegal to drive a car with a roll cage on the streets.
If you are building a race car from scratch meaning all you have is a shell you would build in a roll cage. That would then and only then stiffen the car. It would all get welded in and become a part of the frame. But I believe what you all are talking about is taking a stock car and putting one in. This will do nothing except keep you safer in a roll, side impact, as well as a front and rear impact.
i agree that the roll cage isnt really necessary for road use, so yeah go the crazy 1k strut bars. what brand/kind of bars are they? miracle cross bar?
roll cages are just for that....ROLLING protection etc at speed. Nothing to do with handling :)
Anyway , to make your car handle better start with what i mentioned earlier -
Quote:
IMO a "roll cage" will make the car handle worse...it needs natural flex thru the sussy and chassis to aid in cornerign and balance etc.
just a rear swaybar and rear strut bar + nice sussy / tyres / wheels is enough.
Roll cage is for protection ....
But i dont see why it would help in handling
Making your chasis stiffer would definitly help handling.. if not, why not?.
I have read many posts about how a roll cage would impove handling about 100% in a 71 ke20 corolla (i use to have one - there chasis's are weak)...
I dont see why it shouldnt... Its almost like your saying seam welding your car does not increase handling...
Just my 2 cents... correct me if you think im wrong
The roll cage does stiffen the chassis, as a side effect to its main purpose of safety. I would think this would then put more stress on the tyres (more turning force or whatever put through them), so if you had tyres up to the job it would help handling too....
of course, this is just me thinking out loud.
Agreed,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondavirgin
but still they have performance qulaities.. not like as mentioned by a few of the previous post
the strut bars im looking at are passwordJDM 3point front and 4point rear. for 599 US u get some other part with them to lol
The roll cage i was looking at was welded into the car by mic's metalcraft (or a guy who comes out to him) a few of my friends got full cages but there cars are not on the road yet, in the end if i get a cage i will be getting sway n strut bars jst wondering which way to go first
:thumbsup: Tested and PROVEN!Quote:
Originally Posted by EG5[KRT]
Can't say I agree with that ben!Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
Sure it's there to protect the driver, however I can't see how stiffening up the body to reduce flex via a rollcage doesn't have a positive impact on handling.
Here's a site with some decent pics. Most after market roll cages will be like the 8 point. This will do little to help strengthen the flex in a car. It'll just keep the driver safe.
This one will help as it is built in to the frame.
Now this one is what you would need to make the roll cage help save the driver and make the car really stiff to make a difference.
I doubt you want to spend that much on a roll cage to help your suspension so I'd just go with some sway bars and springs and shocks. Tires/wheel size and type does make a difference too.
Finally people are coming to their senses..Quote:
Originally Posted by Slow96GSR
Although roll cages are created for flips and rolls they do provide stiffening qualities whihc are good for handling. As to their feasibilitly (cost/comfort) to be installed on a road driven vehicle is a whole new case.
If a bolted in strut/floor/chasis brace helps the car's handling why wouldnt a 8pt brace( aka roll cage) do the same and yet better......
roll cages provide handling characteristics.. i dont know why people are flaming this modification as an "All show Mod" ?:thumbdwn:
Well it depends on which one you get. There are a few out there that do nothing but sit there and look pretty and there are many that do something. But in order for one to be functional it needs to be a parts of the chassis. Whether it's bolted in or welded and in 4 or more spots. If it doesn't have cross members it will not help worth anything for the suspension also. Some of the 8 points don't bolt in to the suspension towers of the car. that it where the flex is as well as diagonal from each of them. See if they bolt in to the seat belt bolts and a set up by the kicks and a set on the back by the trunk you will still get roll. I'll see if I can find and edit in a picture of this.
Here Notice the rear suspension towers in the first picture... that is the correct way. That is functional.
Here is one that will help but notice no cross member on the rear tower support. This will allow a lot of flexing. A simple sway bar will correct this.
This one does no good at all. Not cross members at all connecting the uprights to each other at more than 1 point. This is what you would consider a just for looks roll cage. It helps a little bit for rollovers but that's it.
If you are not racing on the track either a drag style ot street style just get sway bars. If you are going to race get the full roll cage and make it really safe and the suspension secure.
the first one is crazy, that would cost so much lol
the ones my friends have are like the 2nd one but the the bar accross the door is angled
i do use my car for some activites where a roll cage may save my life lol is a cliff face lol
we are talking on the street in which any massive increase in body stiffness will have a impact for sure ~ hardly creating a better handling car thoQuote:
Originally Posted by wynode
(he was talking the option of installing only a "rollcage") So for the money there are much better options :cool:
Interesting tho , there is a "Body refresh" option in Japan and maybe other countries where you can take your car in and have it re-spot welded and reinforced to be as firm as new unlike the sloppy "layercake" cars we drive today.
thank for all the input guys, i appricate it greatly.
i have decided which path i will take n we will see how i go.
thanks again all
oh and bennjamin ya av. trips me out every time i look at it lol
I believe Wynode was disagreeing with this statement you made that Rollcages have nothing to do with handling :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
A correctly designed roll cage will improve your handling on the street and at the track, but I would get the strut braces and sway bars as the first step and this afterwards.
for those who keep saying it wont improve your handling have you driven a car before and after one has been fitted? :confused:
Terry: what rollcage did you have in your car which made it understeer? are you sure it's not for handling as well? :confused:
As for race car, improve handling can be done by welding.......not for roll cage.:) If just look for performance side.....get strut bar and sway bar (fount and rear) and strip the car to do welding.....
Roll cage will make the car understeer cos there is more weight located in the center of all four wheels.
What I said was rollcages key design is safety and protection :thumbsup: - handling whether good or bad after is another thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by kOncept
I have been passenger in a dodgy Yaris and a couple of other "performance" ( ie riced up cars) in Japan and by gosh the full roll cage didnt absoutley nothing for the way the thing cornered ! Felt even more like a bus than usual. As I said included before there are much more effective things to do before getting a roll cage.
ben: yeah was probably incorrectly designed.Quote:
Originally Posted by kOncept
I go and get some sleep:D ......haha i wonder how many more post will be tomorrow night...:)
they where " off the shelf" items ( similar to thoseQuote:
Originally Posted by kOncept
half cage" ones but with dodgy welding - i guess the cars owner did it in his back yard) - but the massive "icky" factor was it was on chopped springs and stock everything else ( plus hideous bodykits). Not fun at all lol.
Well in that case you can't exactly blame the roll cage for that!Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
But I gotta agree with slowGSR's post. It depends alot on the rollcage and which points in the car it is fitted to in order to increase body stiffness.
But I still disagree with your statement ben that a roll cage does nothing for handling. A properly build and installed roll cage will stiffen the body and reduce flex. But if you want handling only.......then yes, go for sway bars / strut bars as a cheaper more legal option.
EDIT: Typo!
i think everyone thinks/saying the same thing
Roll cages are deisgned for safelty.
but for performance
Regardless of how dodgey the design is.. it would still be better than not having it. (Might slow you torqueless wonder down in the str8 though)
Regardless of where its mounted it would strengthen something.. it would atleast reduce flex in the floor pan. and possibiliy a/b/c pilliars and maybe roof and strut tops depending on how its mounted in the vehicle......
Integrated Roll cages are more purposeful. Bolt in cages at the wrong point does little...(Ill say little... I dont agree on people saying it does nothing or makes handling worst... [with decent power and complementing suspension components])
Feasilbility of cost and legality makes the roll cage a bad choice using it as a bfyb suspension mod.
If it does nothing for handling why do ppl buy C-pillar braces?, strut braces etc, if reducing flex does nothing for handling?Quote:
Originally Posted by wynode
A roll cage has to improve handling to some extent through reducing flex, so long as your tyres/suspension are up to the task of handling the additional force being put through them, although i agree though, sway bars and strut braces will do a more cost effective job for a primarily street car.
Sorry I meant to say I disagree with ben's statement LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Hondavirgin
For a street car dont worry about a roll cage. Its very excessive for only street use. But if you are building the car for track then defiently get one.
Their primary use is for safety, but a well designed roll cage will defeintly be a advantage with handling. The stiffer the chassis the better.
But remember that if you do add a roll cage you will need to play around with your suspension a lot more. As it changes the way your car will handle and act, not much you can buy off the shelf for your car will be right anymore. You will need to experiement with different swaybar sizes, different spring rates, damper rates, etc.. to get it right.
Unless you are dedicated to track don't bother.
But roll cages defiently are a advantage to handling. You just need a well designed roll cage (which is attatched to the chassis at various points, not just at the bottom), and dont bother with the off the shelf items (eg. cusco), they are for looks, and dont do all that much. And remember you will need to setup your suspension right to take advantage of the extra stiffness of the chassis.
Its ROLL cage. Not HANDLE cage :)
TBH, without being bothered to explain, dont get a roll cage for street use. Get a set of good shocks/springs/swaybars/strut bars/cross bars (links seatbelt anchors).
With a cage, you will get reemed by cops.
ekslut is right, a cage will screw with your car heaps, so dont finish with a cage after suspension, get a cage, then work suspension, but as before, dont bother. For 3k, you will get
They are called a roll cage because that is what they were first designed for (driver safety); after they were built then people started realising the potential it could strengthen the chassis and car body. Also those Yaris rubbish Ben went in, wtf you just said they had cut springs, of course a cage will not help that, that car should be in a ditch.
However why would you really want a roll cage? Even before thinking of a roll cage you should have already updated to after market springs and swaybars which is a great first step, then update to fully adjustable coilovers, the next step would be to think about a C pillar bar or even a B pillar bar. Then if you are really serious go a cage.
Cages, seem welding, and putting foam urethane reinforcement into any hollow parts is also other ways on strengthening your vehicles chassis. If this weren’t a proven and tested way to fix the flex in the chassis why would JUN do it to their dc5 umm??? Any one of these are excellent ways to help improve chassis stiffness, however for the perfect balance to improve handling there is a limit to how stiff you want the chassis the use of a properly designed roll cage would not exceed this limit.
I think some of you should really be quiet when posting, what cars (not just Hondas) have you ever been in with a properly designed cage that is welded to the chassis? Not some rubbish mild steel or aluminum rubbish you found at cash converters.
a few of my mates have full chromemolly????? or how ever u spell it cages, went for a ride in one dam the chassie feels stiff.