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hey all. just wondering, i've got a B18c3 in my ef and ive been told that the rev limit in these are 8900rpm (well max power is achieved at 8900). does anybody know where rev limit is suppose to be as i had a miss shift at 8900 the other day and my tacho showed all the way to 10000 and the needle was bouncing, i have since taken it to 10k and it makes good power even at high revs. any suggestions?
what mods u done to ur motor to make power that high???
i never knew the EF tachos went to 10k
yeah they dont. but my autometer does. i figured that i would be needing one once i had the b18.
what computer (ECU) are you running ?
*cough* bullshit.
9500rpm sustained (not mis-shift) is nearly catastrophic failure for a Type R motor. More so, there is no need to take it that high (although, in a NA engine, the higher the revs, the better, at the cost of relaibility)
They develop max horsepower at like 8200rpm stock I think.
what do you mean by *cough* bullshit? im not lying to anyone mate if thats what you are saying. the motor that i have has come from japan and im just trying to find out more about it. thanks mate.
no offence, I rekon its bullshit too, what ECU are you running?
It could be that your autometer is incorrectly calibrated.
the ecu that came with the motor is stock but has a spoon sticker stuck to the bottom of it, hence me not knowing what the rev limit is as it doesnt seem to have one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
and the autometer stays with the stock tacho all the way to 8k which is where the stock tacho stops.
ah OK
those spoon programs tend to set the redline really high, possibly up to 70,000rpm as a way to override the redline.
Personally i'd take it to a dyno to get a readout of a/f and peak torque.
From there you should be making decisions around redline.
Do you know of the motor has been built at all?
Any further info would go good here too
might have an unknown sleeper.
A mate of mine got a ca18 imported to put into his car. Turns out that it has mines internals, ecu and eerythin. Can rev it out to 11,000 RPM and has done so on a few occasions while drifting.
I was under the impression that in softwares that modify the oem code were limited at a max redline of 9999rpm due to the rpm spot in the code being only 4 digits?Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
when we had the cam cover off we found spoon cams, double valve springs and titanium retainers. i had it dynoed and got 149kw at the wheels. a/f was good although it did lean out really bad at around 9200rpm. we ended up putting a malpassi fuel pressure reg into it to increase fuel pressure but it now runs a little too rich. hopefully all of this is ironed out this weekend when i put the apexi vafc in.
erm...noQuote:
Originally Posted by saxman
those 4 points are hexadecimal values, ie 00,01,02,03.......0A,0B,.....FF
can you post up a dyno plot of the original run without the malpasi?Quote:
Originally Posted by jezB18c3
yeah ive got to find the dyno sheet first. ill try to get it up asap.
ouch, talk about trying to fix a band aid with a band aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by jezB18c3
why not just get the ecu tuned? would be far better
lets see the a/f plot before we make any comments.
I have a feeling the a/f after 9200 is fine as peak torque would've been hit before then...
I'm not commenting on the a/f, I'm commenting on trying to fix it with a fuel pressure regulator, and then trying to fix the over compensation with a vafc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
yeah no problem, im just thinking ahead
149kw? Engine Dyno or at the wheels?
If you have a 149kw B18C motor, that has been fully rebuilt then lucky you - But it will last about 10,000kms before needing a rebuild due to cylinders going oval (if consistently kept at high rpm's).
If that is at the wheels, then you have got one of the more / most powerful B18's I have seen / heard of that isn't a drag racing motor (i.e. still streetable, and when I say streetable, able to drive under 4000rpm).
My B18C is stock and with I/H/E modifications I got 121kw@wheels. The extra 28kw being achieved at like 9200rpm is nearly unheard of (You need a 10,000+rpm motor with an AGGRESSIVE cam to make useable power above 9500rpm). I suspect you would need:
12.5:1 Compression (Unlikely since the car runs fine on a modified ECU with essentially the same ignition maps)
HARDCORE Porting / Polishing to the point where the car nearly becomes unstreetable. Plus all the valvetrain upgrades in the world (as you said you have already seen in the head).
Top of Range Headers / Exhaust / Intake combination - Almost need ITB's.
I don't know man. Show me a Dyno sheet for this monster - If you truly have bought a sleeper then congrats, otherwise something smells fishy.
Pro-ECU - Have you come across a B18C putting out 149kw@wheels?? Cost of build would be more than $20k.
On another note - I want an ECU :P
ewen....you're a fool.
I know it hard, but stop talking shit.
Riiight .. Let me know a B18 with 149kw@wheels at 9200rpm.
The knowledge on australian forums is pathetic at times. Attitudes even worse.
EDIT
ok ok -- Sorry. May be possible at 9200rpm. Would represent about 250-260 flywheel horsepower which is still massive for these motors on the street.
if you LEARN TO READ, he did not say he got 149kW @ 9200.
Give the guy a chance.
Ok - He said he'll post the dyno. I didn't flat out say he is lying, (well, not after my first post) but voiced my doubts. As such, I gave him a chance and I went on to say that if he has picked up a monster, then lucky him (seriously!).
You must have dyno'd 150kw B18C's before - What where the power peaks on them? Were they on the street?
any updates on that graph?
weres DYNO DAVE WHEN YOU NEED HIM HE will tell you bout some b18c hes done close to that figure
i wanna see some proof too
i wana see the dyno graph too lol and pics! an EF civic with a 150kw atw would be a rocket!
i heard about one of the queenslanders with a spoon crate engine making low 120's. kinda gives you an idea of how great spoon actually is... at the end of the day, aren't they just blue-printed oem bits and pieces?
Just ask weezer on this forum about his built B18C-R.Quote:
Originally Posted by ginganggooly
You will then realise that the claims in this thread are not entirely optimistic, but indeed an achievable goal.
sorry, but where did i say that the power output was 'entirely optimistic' for a built b18c?Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
I was just going off on a tangent, as i often do, commenting on the performance of spoon performance bits. i.e. they're not all they're cracked up to be.
i just usually hit "quote" and reply to the last post.....
i was just making a general statement, not necessarily in reference to you.
The guy with the spoon engine - His name is Jansen. I have met him in Brissie more than once. I can tell you the power output for the amount of money inputted isn't great really - But a very reliable motor.
The difference between 140kw@wheels and 150kw@wheels is massive with a 1.8l Engine - Even the B18C. It almost makes it a non-streetable car, or an engine that simply is useless under 4000rpm.
Flame away ProECU -- Don't Care. I want the dyno graph. What do you drive and what modifications has it got? What power output?
OZHonda, as much as I like the local factor, is full of people who either:
a) Own a decent ITR and can't drive or;
b) Own an ITR and think it puts out 190,000kw@wheels.
They are HARD to modify (without serious head work) and keep streetable at that power level. 135kw@wheels is ideal for a street, daily driven type r.
Damn I'm 1kw short lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
My ITR has 139.1hp@wheels (on very low reading dyno) and to get that much KW engine needs to be realy worked and tuned to perfection, it would take lots of $$$$ and time to do something like that
I drive a 2stroke 100cc yamaha go-kart, 15HP@Wheels.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
Mods are current spec exhaust, venturi plate before TBody.
Whats your point?
Leave the guy alone.... I believe him, but yeah, I'd like to see a dyno plot regardless, at least that way (regardless of power) I can point him in the right direction on his a/f.
You're just here to criticise and spin shit about the bloke.
*cough* Yeah, and some people think they own the place... *cough*Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
lol -- Not exactly. In fact this is probably the first thread I've actually posted to.
ProECU - Didn't mean that as a stab at you - Moreso, if you had first hand experience tuning one of these motors for yourself, what outputs have you found to be still streetable? (purely a question).
Nice -- What have you done to get that level of output? Where was peak power?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim80y
I am tossing up whether to do a K20r swap (instant 190-200hp@wheels) or work the B18. At this stage, the K20r swap seems to be the way to go (minor mods, high power and reliability). After all, I would imagine you have spent more than $8k (cost of conversion) getting to 134kw@wheels on B18C.
fwiw - I only have a tad over 120kw@wheels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
yes I have had first hand experience.
If a turbo car making twice as much HP as this is still streetable, why wouldnt something at 150kw. Suggesting otherwise is just plain stupid and suggests you have no idea how the concept of vtec (dual cam lobes) works.
good day.
I am not talking about 'turbo' or forced induction setup - I am talking NA.
I know exactly how it works, but 'usually' when you are wanting to make that sort of power you disable the vtec anyway and tune the cam timing (as you are probably aware). The change from a streetable primary lobe to a secondary much, much more aggressive lobe (that would make 150kw@wheels) would be spastic, and the longevity of the head components would be sacrificed. Generally anyone wanting 150kw at wheels would be happy to have it live between 6500 - 9500rpm on the trac and they wouldn't require the primary cam profile.
So - On an NA application, at what output did you realise that the car was no longer really streetable (i.e. the power band had shifted too high)?
There are B18C's in the US putting down 215-230whp however ask any of them and the car is basically useless below 5000rpm, due to extensive porting / head work, cam profiles/setup etc..
Good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
I have mates of mine runnin turbod cars with at least 320 kwatw. They have no problem on the street.
I've got a few friends with NA cars that are pushin the 150 kw boundries as well. They also have no problem.
Although their engines do not have VVT or any other VTEC equivelant.
What makes you think that 150 kw and above is not streetable ewendc2r??
Is it because of the aggressive swith between the two lobes??
he doesnt know...
just keeps throwing the term "aggressive" to describe a cam profile without actually knowing what he's describing.
Well lets say that the switch over point can give the car a bit of a jolt. its not gonna be able to make the car "unstreetable" is it??
Even if it does become a little bit of a problem in the wet lets say, it can always be ironed out with some descent tuning can't it?? And possibly create more power in doing so.....??
http://users.bigpond.net.au/jimenez/pics/dyno5.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
To get that figure I'm using pretty much everything Adrian has recommended in the Bang for Bucks DC2R Guide - Medium Budget:
Medium budget – Stop @ ECU
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec B camshafts / valve springs / adjustable cam pulleys / oil pump gear / fuel pump / fuel pressure regulator / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 128~134kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)
I've got everything bar the fuel pump, lower final drive and oil pump gear; stock has been fine for me. Adrian did a great job tuning it, the ignition timing is very conservative; advancing the timing more than what it's at now didn't really do much. With the cams you really do gain a lot in the midrange and a good bit of extra top end. Whether bumping up the compression and aiming for 150kw atw would decrease reliability and driveability - I don't know.
All up in parts it will cost between 8-10k (at most), but you will have a quick and reliable daily driver. IMO I would rather work the B18C, you've already got I/H/E, just work with what you've got. A K20 conversion would cost more than 8k I think.
Don't doubt you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
On one of the first swaps I've been fortunate to witness, B18C R into an EG, more than 10 years ago. We were already getting over 200hp ATW NA, after modifying and tuning. While we used it for rallies, it was also totally streetable.
I dont see why something with big power N/A isnt streetable.. its not just the top end that has the gains..
my K20A has heaps of midrange and bottom end power, plus I wouldnt say it has a slim power band and I dont think it has a vtec change over point from low to high cam either really, the motor changes tone but its not really visible in the tuning.. we had an issue with cam placement in this graph and have fixed it since but I didnt worry about getting another graph, peak power is at around 10,000rpm but I'm not revving the motor that high..
http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/water...tage_2-med.JPG
the only thing stopping this motor from being street driven is the car its in and the radiator size.. as for bottom end driveablity I drive the car on the road when I have to take it to the dyno, I drive the car down the return roads etc at the drags, 50kmh in town isnt a problem at all, just need to learn how to drive it slowly thats all, given 3rd gear on roadies it will spin at 50kmh under full throttle.
We have a couple of EF civic road cars running B18C's 160wkw they run 12.6 and 12.7 street trim on semi slicks.. over here..Quote:
Originally Posted by VTi_b0i
they have B16B pistons or better which makes about 12.5-13:1 compression, big cams (crane stage 2's and rocket motorsport stage 3's) one has a Hondata S300, the other a Link plus ecu, ported heads, stock valve size though. and good headers etc..
fark man thats fast :P i wish my car could do 13s :( lol
What fuel (OR) are they running or has ignition timing been retarded to compensate for high compression?
"retarded" timing... you refer to it as a bad thing ????
they run pump gas, the timing is set so the car doesnt detonate, retarded timing isnt a bad thing as ProECCU will tell you. It not a big job to tune a motor with over 13:1 compression for pump, you wont see the real benefits of going to the high compressionas much though
Well, its done mainly as Non Vtec says, to compensate for high compression / low octane fuel. It certainly isn't an ideal solution. The same result could possibly been achieved with lower compression, more advanced timing etc (at least a more efficient burn).
I guess it all depends on what you guys consider streetable -- I am sure Croydon's GTR COULD be driven on the street (if legal) but hardly a streetable setup. Just as any car could be driven on the street, but suddenly a lot of other factors come into play that I would consider taking away from the easy ability to drive the vehicle around suburban streets.
Mate,Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
where are you getting this from? Are you making it up or what?
Can you explain how ignition timing actually works for the masses to understand your twisted logic?
Sorry I'm not a genious in that field (not being a smartass and if you can explain why I'd love to learn more in depth) -- I always thought that if you are pinging an easy solution is the retard the ignition timing (very very generalised) until the pinging/detonation/pre-ignition stops at the cost of power OR using a higher Octane fuel on the tune (and when its run). Is that not right?
The more advanced the timing, the more time the flame has to burn through the mixture of air & fuel before the cylinder reaches maximum compression at TDC. Of course, if this is too advanced, then the mixture will try and push the piston down before it reaches TDC (causing pinging). This can then be combatted with scavenging cam profiles that actually have an overlap for high rpm efficiency (to pull / suck mixture through the cylinder to ensure maximum saturation and usually suitable for NA cars I think).
I have also heard though at high rpm's due to increased engine temperature and resultant burn speeds that ignition timing can be further retarded to allow for a better burn without detonation. This would normally apply to high revving, high compression drag engines.
I am on the right track here?
EDIT: Did a bit of research:
EXAMPLE (Don't worry about the Figures etc - Just look at the maths).
Cylinder pressure of 1000 PSI at TDC, (FIG. 1), can drop to 500 PSI with less than 3/8" of piston travel, (FIG. 2). If you can manage to get 1000 PSI in the same engine after the 3/8" travel, (FIG. 3), the pistons will have to travel an additional 3/4" to lower the cylinder pressure to 500 PSI, (FIG. 4). Work is defined as a force times distance. An average pressure, (750 PSI X 12-1/2 sq. in.), times distance in feet, (3/8" divided by 12), equals 293 foot pounds of work. Our second example, because it has twice the chamber volume above the piston location, must move twice as far to lower the cylinder pressure by 1/2. Since all the other numbers, by our own definition are the same, the force multiplied by a distance twice that of the first example will equal twice the work done, 586 foot pounds of work. There is no free lunch in horsepower equations because to get 1000 PSI above the piston in the second example takes twice as much fuel and energy as the 1000 PSI in the first example. What this offsetting of the peak pressure does is allow us to use the extra fuel mix available to a nitrous engine without breaking and melting things. The system that allows us to postpone maximum cylinder pressure is ignition timing retard. To a lessor extent short rod ratios, lower compression ratios, high RPM, aluminum heads, a tight quench, a rich fuel mixture, a small carburetor and hotter cams tend to delay maximum cylinder pressure.
Understand that, in our quest to delay cylinder pressure's peak time, more is not necessarily better. Instead, consider that the ideal cylinder pressure would be just short of detonation pressure and this pressure would be maintained from top dead center, and as long as possible after TDC. If timing is really late, you won't build enough cylinder pressure to start the car, let alone drive it. The 1000 PSI pressure in the example is not the maximum allowable combustion pressure but, rather, a comfortable pressure for illustration of the work principle.
Furthermore (non-quote and from my understanding) I would imagine that because the burn process is delayed, the heat generated from retarding the ignition to compensate for the higher cylinder pressures would be greater (not a good thing obviously) -- Am I right?
dude shut up stop spaming the thread.
if u got a problem and pm one of the mods
or take every1's advice and shut up
this B18c sounds mean:thumbsup:
wheres the dyno sheet?
every single thread in ozhonda ends up being a massive argument
y are people so unkind?
Umm .. I was responding to a question in relation to this thread.. I don't know what you think spam is.Quote:
Originally Posted by [[d a n n y]]
My point exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by [[d a n n y]]
i wanna see this dyno sheet... and then claim its my own. hehe. i drove my mate 220whp teg r the other day, it redlines at 9500rpm. honestly i was to scared to open it up to the top because the bottom end was that good. apart from the obvious cams and high comp pistons, It has a serious amount of porting an bigger valve "openings"(??) and i would say it is more then streetable, it owns the streets.
btw. lets all woo saa for a second and stop being so "aggresive" as "ewendc2r" would say.
cheer fellas
so where's this dyno sheet?
You wont get him to log in as he thinks this forum has turned to shit. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by MRJDM
ALLMTR996
Quote:
Originally Posted by shurman
where are all these cars,
why arent we hearing about these cars on tracks? i want to see a 220 whp integra in action
lol - me too!!! :P
Theres a lot of HONDAS out there that ppl in this forum havent heard about!!!
AND THAT IS BECAUSE AS SOON AS YOU PPL DO,
THEY ARE PUT DOWN STRAIGHT AWAY!!!!!
SOME PPL NEED TO GROW UP.
ewendc2r,
I have no knowledge whatsoever in this field but how you approached him (the original poster) at the start wasn't exactly too kind.
The COUGH BS type reply isn't the best attitude to have. Maybe if you didn't reason with that type of comments at the start people wouldn't be so reluctant to listen to you.
If you don't believe him when he originally posted there is no need to say its bullshit, as this will almost always imply that he is lying. You know what I mean... it just doesn't feel good to be accused of lying.
Anyway so lets wait for the dyno sheet and discuss away after that.
220whp...hmm...
ard 160kw atw..hmmm...very quick...hmm...
i just want to know, how many compression it's at now?
and is it 1.8R or 2.0?
i'm very curious...
Quote:
Originally Posted by locote
I never put the bloke down, i just dreamed of being put in the same position as him... im jealous...
it would be good if we could orgnaise a drag day, i know in the past track days have been rognaised, but what if we organise a day at WSID or something where all these monsters can come out. obviously it will have to be held in every state
i'd luv to see 220kw cars running in real life, i wanna hear the frigin things
todaek9, the car runs jun pistons (not sure on the exact ratio) and it is still a 1.8ltr.
Kuso,
It would be even better to back it up with a dyno. 160kw@wheels is HUGE performance from NA 1.8L - Over 55kw@wheels gain over stock. Would cost absolute thousands upon thousands and the majority of that would be in the head with porting, but with that you lose your mid end capability and gain top end, other words, lose driveability.
Have a look at some of the all motor setups on honda-tech in the allmotor forum. Those guys are building drag motors (which are all out max power rather than torque mid range track builds) and even then the numbers struggle to match the claims made here.. But they have dynos and when someone says cough bullshit, they either back their claim up with a dyno sheet or dissapear.. Not my loss.
All I say is it is a waste of time putting figures up that are ridiculously high with being able to back it up, because there will always be people that will doubt it unless proof is provided (and when it is, I will applaud the effort, don't get me wrong).
/end rant
ewendc2r m8 everyones right no need for those comments save those to say for person to person talk.
people are just posting to find out what they need help with and not people telling them there motors bullshit. etc..
ok.. buddy wheres the dyno sheet to stop all this ?
i think he is right but....
i dont see any dyno sheets coming of this engine....
i would be putting it up straight away being proud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
You ever considered the guy doesn't care about your approval or applause?
Way to dig up an old thread buddy.. Ever consider people didn't want to have to click to read an addition to a thread that was useless?
I have shut my mouth over this waiting for proof, and will continue to do so. No more posts from me in this thread. Close please.
Forums are made for arguements anyway.
Thanks to ewendc2r some of us may have learnt something about making power in small displacement, high reving motors. I think his point is, it's never easy making power with these things.
ProECU just seems to be picking at ewendc2r post but not explaining on technical terms. We all like to learn from someone who has had first hand experience on how to build 150kwatw B18c. Sayingisn't gonna help anyone.Quote:
ewen....you're a fool.
I know it hard, but stop talking shit.
Gaining big power from these motors is no easy task, let alone a cheap one. Though 50hp in a turbo car is the different betwee 8psi and 14psi of boost on a stock turbo. 50HP on a 1.8 N/A motor can be $2000-$3000. (Power @ the wheels)
You all throw hate at the one that's sceptical but till this day, there is still no proof. DUN DUN DUNNN!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigs
this is so true... DUN DUN DUNNNN...
and the rest ($$) :pQuote:
Originally Posted by nigs
EDIT: In fairness to you, I guess it depends 'which' 50hp you are trying to get hahah.. As in, the first 50hp or the second 50hp lol :)
And remember kids .. drive safe :P