driving a manual - what and what not to do

ok ok, here's a super n00b thread...

so, i'll start off by saying that i CAN drive manual....i manage fine, but i am no pro at it...

my current car is an 06 accord euro, manual...it's my first honda, and my first manual car that i've owned...

one of the main questions i want to ask is....what are the big things not to do when driving a manual.....in particular, wearing out the clutch...

i know ppl have different driving habits in a manual, so i just want to hear how and what u all do....


feel free to also discuss other driving techniques such as heel and toe clutching (something i will try one day to master)...



to start it off, i'll ask this question.....

situation: driving towards a small normal surburban intersection to turn left....as i exit the turn i would obviously be in 2nd gear....on approach to the turn i am still in 2nd gear (as it was only a short initial distance to the intersection so i wouldn't be in a higher gear as i'm not travelling that fast)....

question: what i do is as i approach the turn (already in 2nd gear), i depress the clutch so that the engine doesn't 'shudder' or 'jump'.....and release it slowly as i exit the corner.....

who else does this??

other things i've seen ppl do is change to 3rd to avoid that 'engine braking/pullback, and then change to 2nd gear on exiting the corner....i don't see a use for this as it just wears out the clutch more, right??

another thing is ppl clutching it, shoving it into neutral, turning, then clutching again back into 2nd...

so yeh, what method do u guys use? does rolling the car with the gear still in and the clutch fully depressed (so like u're in neutral) hurt the car or anything?


lol, help out this newbie to everyday manual driving...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

question: what i do is as i approach the turn (already in 2nd gear), i depress the clutch so that the engine doesn't 'shudder' or 'jump'.....and release it slowly as i exit the corner.....

who else does this??

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Depends if the corner has stop/give away sign. I'll switch to 1st gear if there is.

If there is none, slowdown to 2nd gear prior corner. No clutching needed when cornering. I don't think it will jump if you press the throttle softly.

If your keeping it in second, as your releasing the clutch get onto the throttle a little bit and increase it as your releasing the clutch, make any sense lol?

This sight might help:

http://www.10w40.com/individual/100186.asp

practice makes perfect!

I dont know if its write either man but wat i usually do is slow down with second and stay in second up to the corner. If its taking too long and the car starts to shudder i dont ride the clutch i just clutch in fully. And i would go down to first and then take off.
I think if the car is shuddering in 2nd gear there is no point letting it out slowly cause ur obviously dont have enough speed to be going in 2nd so unless your going to accn then and there u have to go down 2 first gear and then take off again.
Make any sense.?

u cant stall on 2nd so no need for clutching at a turn unless u are going like 10kmh in which case u would have changed to 1st anyways.

jus as long as u come to a full stop in 2nd!
but i leave it in gear 2 thru a turn usually... it does 'shudder' a bit.. jus try not to slow down to like <5km/h

you shouldnt really drive the car in neutral let alone turn corners..
that includes rolling down hills..
it can be dangerous

This is a very good thread as people who just started driving manual can pick up good driving tips from the others. There might even be a few oldies who have been driving manual wrongly who can benefit!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

to start it off, i'll ask this question.....

situation: driving towards a small normal surburban intersection to turn left....as i exit the turn i would obviously be in 2nd gear....on approach to the turn i am still in 2nd gear (as it was only a short initial distance to the intersection so i wouldn't be in a higher gear as i'm not travelling that fast)....

question: what i do is as i approach the turn (already in 2nd gear), i depress the clutch so that the engine doesn't 'shudder' or 'jump'.....and release it slowly as i exit the corner.....

who else does this??

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If it is a left filter, I don't press the clutch. If there is a stop sign or a give way, I slow to a stop and press the clutch in (before the engine stalls). Check for traffic and go off in 1st. If it is a junction without signs where you can only turn left or go straight, then I stay in 2nd, don't press clutch and carefully take the corner, in case someone is crossing the road. 2nd gear is good for 15km/h. I rarely go back into 1st gear to corner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

other things i've seen ppl do is change to 3rd to avoid that 'engine braking/pullback, and then change to 2nd gear on exiting the corner....i don't see a use for this as it just wears out the clutch more, right??

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To me, it seems to be pointless as you can maintain light throttle to stay at the same speed in the corner. In addition, the amount of fuel saved in that 3 seconds is almost insignificant compared to avoiding a heavy throttle take off at the lights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

another thing is ppl clutching it, shoving it into neutral, turning, then clutching again back into 2nd...

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Never do this. Don't take corners with the clutch in or in neutral. If you MUST do this, don't go into neutral. Leave it in 2nd and hold the clutch in. Blip the throttle to rev match before releasing the clutch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

so yeh, what method do u guys use? does rolling the car with the gear still in and the clutch fully depressed (so like u're in neutral) hurt the car or anything?

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Nope, doesn't wear out anything other than the thrust bearing. And revving the engine with the clutch in puts more wear on the bearing than the act of taking the corner with the clutch pressed in.

What I do is as I approach the corner in 5th gear, 50km/h, I downshift by blipping the throttle (rev matching) to 4th, 3rd and then 2nd. You can go from 5th to 3rd as well, but it's more difficult to blip the right amount of thottle from the 5th to 3rd. I take the corner in 2nd like normal. If 3rd doesnt' stall the engine, I also take the corner in 3rd.

Rev matching preserves the clutch. When you press and release the clutch, do it in one swift and smooth motion. Of course, if you lift your foot off the clutch too quickly, then it'll be jerky. So do it swift and smooth. It takes about 1/4 a second for me to lift my foot of the clutch. It's fast, but not brutally fast.

Heel-toeing is difficult to do smoothly at low revs. It's best suited for 4000rpm downshifts, which is very rare, unless you are breaking a few traffic rules. :)

I'll let the others reply first before I go into my heel-toeing technique.

adding to what aaronng said about the thrust bearing, try not to be stopped at lights etc with the clutch depressed wainting to go as this will also wear the thrust bearing.

also dont drive along with your hand on the shifter as this can wear various parts in the gearbox prematurely.

yeh well i've driven manual since 2002 when i got my P's...i've just never owned an everyday car that was manual though...

but yeh, the only odd thing with me now is the cornering...

i'm talking about making a left turn when u don't have to give way to anyway...

i usually never go back to 1st coz it's just too fast for that gear....when i corner i'm always in 2nd gear...

the only weird thing i have is on approach to the corner (while still in 2nd gear coz i'm going slow), i sometimes depress the clutch a little bit to avoid that 'engine braking' on approach to the corner....and to avoid the 'engine shudder' on exit of the turn....

i've always driven like this and see it as the most practical thing to do...just wondering what others do that's all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

yi'm talking about making a left turn when u don't have to give way to anyway...

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You only have to give way to pedestrians, no matter how silly that particular one is crossing without checking for traffic. :) Once you knock him down, you are in the wrong, even if he wanted to commit suicide and ran in front of your car when you are in the surburban areas. http://www.acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/ugh.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

the only weird thing i have is on approach to the corner (while still in 2nd gear coz i'm going slow), i sometimes depress the clutch a little bit to avoid that 'engine braking' on approach to the corner....and to avoid the 'engine shudder' on exit of the turn....

i've always driven like this and see it as the most practical thing to do...just wondering what others do that's all

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Depressing the clutch a little bit means you are slipping the clutch. Well, it's fine as the clutch is a consumable item that is meant to wear down as you use it. But I prefer to use throttle control to avoid engine braking rather than 1/2 press the clutch. http://www.acurazine.com/forums/imag...es/biggrin.gif Plus, if you ever upgrade to a button clutch (assuming you start driving race cars), then you can't do the 1/2 clutch trick.

Now here's my own driving a manual question. When you press and release the clutch to change gears, do you let your heel rest on the mat or do you lift your entire foot above the floor?

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But I prefer to use throttle control to avoid engine braking rather than 1/2 press the clutch.

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what do u mean by throttle control? i depress it half way coz i don't want to change to 3rd gear, coz i'll just have to change it back again as soon as i do it...but if clutching it 1/2 way is bad, i'd like to find another way...i'd like to turn a corner without touching the clutch throughout the turn (besides for downshifting)

and me, i lift my whole foot off to depress the clutch...although sometimes when i'm wearing boots, the footrest sometimes gets in the way....


oh, and one more question, what is the 'thrust bearing'? :confused:

Basically, with throttle control you have 3 situations at a particular speed.
1) Zero or too little throttle: Engine braking
2) Just the right amount of throttle: Maintains speed
3) Too much throttle: Acceleration.

So with practice, you can be in 2nd gear, brake as you approach the corner (your foot is off the throttle, so there is engine braking now), enter the turn with your foot on the throttle with just the right amount (zero engine braking, zero acceleration) so that you don't slow down anymore, and once you are at the exit of the corner, accelerate again. Of course, your throttle doesn't have to be "perfect". Just roughly in the region that maintains speed with little to no engine braking.

It makes your right foot more sensitive to the amount of throttle you can give and eventually you can even coast around at 15km/h in 1st gear without being jerky! (Euro's electronic throttle is jerky in this situation).

Thrust bearing allows the clutch to be pressed in, while keeping the transmission spinning. It works like a ball bearing that lets you apply force from the axis to disengage the clutch.

cheers aaron, exactly what i wanted to know!

but yeh, my last car was an auto, so it's just a scary step trying to use engine braking through the turn, rather than stepping on ur brakes....

that's why i depress the clutch half way coz i'm not used to the feeling of engine braking.....and i don't use the throttle, but instead clutch it so the car doesn't travel too slow from engine braking.... :o

will try that when i drive home from work later...i finish at midnight tonight... :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aaronng

Now here's my own driving a manual question. When you press and release the clutch to change gears, do you let your heel rest on the mat or do you lift your entire foot above the floor?

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depends on the driving situation. if was slow and relaxed i'd prolly have my heel on the floor (depends on which car too)

however if i was having some fun (on a track or private property ;)) then i may just have my whole foot up.... however i can't say i've ever thought about it before :confused:

meh, clutches are for grannies, if u drive like skaife u dont need to use the clutch.












just kidding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aaronng

Now here's my own driving a manual question. When you press and release the clutch to change gears, do you let your heel rest on the mat or do you lift your entire foot above the floor?

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My foot is on the foot rest until it comes time to press the clutch, then my foot doesn't touch the carpet until fully released.
I actually have trained myself to heel-toe a few years ago and now it's just second nature and allows much better control when driving quickly but can get a little tiresome in some vehicles. For example I drive a van during working hours and naturally heel-toe in it too, but when I'm tired it's not a perfect seating position to excecute this technique. I find when I drive an auto approaching an intersection I catch myself about to heel-toe but can't find a clutch for my left foot! :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FR33K

you shouldnt really drive the car in neutral let alone turn corners..
that includes rolling down hills..
it can be dangerous

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thats tru,, there is no traction in the wheelss... and kud b a bit sticky... has happened 2 me wen i was n00b

Depending on how im driving i do a few differnt things regarding my foot its position when changing gears.

If im just cruising along ill keep my heel on the mat most of the time, maybe coming up a lil bit just before engaging the clutch then back down so i can rock the heel as im coming off the clutch.

When im doing a bit of legal spirited driving ill have my foot off the mat for most of the gear change.

Heel-toe braking i very rarely use while im just driving normally, ill only use it when i come to a sharpish corner or give way sign or what not if im travelling at high speed. Other than that i use it all the time when im doing a bit of spirited driving.

mmm another note i got told, that i found quit good info.
dont rest ur foot on the clutch pedal... burns the clutch
isntead, rest ur foot on the foot rest.. :d

either way your gonna wear out the clutch,,,, how ever you wont need to change it till 40-80kms, depending on how aggressive you are with the clutch. the main things that wear out a clutch are fast take offs you can rest your foot on the clutch pedle but that just wears out your thrust bearing., really depends on how much you abuse your car in terms of shifting.

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dont rest ur foot on the clutch pedal... burns the clutch
isntead, rest ur foot on the foot rest.. :d

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that only happens when the clutch slips, again if anything will wear out the bearing and maybe the teeth of the pressure plate...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrwillz

mmm another note i got told, that i found quit good info.
dont rest ur foot on the clutch pedal... burns the clutch
isntead, rest ur foot on the foot rest.. :d

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lol i think that's why they call it a footrest...

when ever i'm not stepping on the clutch, my foot is on the footrest.....

i hate it on rainy days when your shoes are wet though....omg it gives a new meaning to slipping the clutch...lol :)

especially for those wet weather heros that drive low power RWD cars that do a bit of drifting lol!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

i hate it on rainy days when your shoes are wet though....omg it gives a new meaning to slipping the clutch...lol :)

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try that with metal pedals and no rubber bits :eek: my pedals are nasty in the rain, lol

anyway, interesting thread... best way to learn is to practise... and take note of how other ppl drive. wen i bought my first manual car (was dc2r at the time) and drove it home, i probably drove another manual car twice... lol. How? I used to watch and learn off every other person i rode with... :p

and with the heel-toe technique, don't bother trying to learn it until you've fully 'mastered' your manual driving technique... until it becomes second nature. try to have an understanding of how a manual gearbox works, and know how to match revs... then it'll become very easy ;)

I don't like to waste time breaking, so I would approach the corner at the speed limit and double clutch down to second, (tapping the accelerator in neautral until the revs roughly match what they will be at when downshifting to second), and just power through. This is probably the best treatment for your clutch (and breaks ^^), it's also good practice for racing if you ever do any track work. Less slowing down time means less slow overall! From the way my car responds, I would say Hondas are made for gear breaking!

Also Hondas generally already have very close ratio gearing, so downshifting to first while on the move is mostly unnecessary, (unless you really want to loose traction). If, when in second, you slow down to the point where you feel you can't go again without the car jumping around like a madman, then (you're a grandma :P) it's better to ease it out a bit with the clutch, rather than downshift (unless you end up stopping).

Speaking of grannies, I got stuck behind one last night. She was in some kind of Ford tank and sitting right in the middle of both lanefs ><

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dylanamus

I don't like to waste time breaking, so I would approach the corner at the speed limit and double clutch down to second, (tapping the accelerator in neautral until the revs roughly match what they will be at when downshifting to second), and just power through. This is probably the best treatment for your clutch (and breaks ^^), it's also good practice for racing if you ever do any track work. Less slowing down time means less slow overall! From the way my car responds, I would say Hondas are made for gear breaking!

Also Hondas generally already have very close ratio gearing, so downshifting to first while on the move is mostly unnecessary, (unless you really want to loose traction). If, when in second, you slow down to the point where you feel you can't go again without the car jumping around like a madman, then (you're a grandma :P) it's better to ease it out a bit with the clutch, rather than downshift (unless you end up stopping).

Speaking of grannies, I got stuck behind one last night. She was in some kind of Ford tank and sitting right in the middle of both lanefs ><

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Mate when you're racing you kinda need the brakes, engine braking just won't suffice. Take a leaf out of a racing drivers book and simply use heel-toe tecnique, it's not hard.

I wouldn't call taking a street corner at 60 racing... Obviously breaking is necessary when slowing down rapidy in a race, but no one needs practice breaking as they already do it every time they drive (minus a few exceptions :confused: ). That's the only reason I suggested double clutching as "practice". I didn't think heel and toe was a very relevant "technique" in response to the original post :) I can heel-toe quite well as I have small feet :cool:

Double clutching is used for trucks. You don't need to double clutch unless your synchros are worn.

If the corner can be taken safely at 60, then it's alright. Of course, if it is a surburban corner where there might be people crossing the road, then it's better to be safe than to have someone injured.

Its worth learning to heel-and-toe when you can. Always drive manuals like that and once you get the hang its too easy, less lurchy, seamless progress.

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This is probably the best treatment for your clutch (and breaks ^^), it's also good practice for racing if you ever do any track work. Less slowing down time means less slow overall!

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This part is what I was referring to actually, but hey that's cool man.;)

i cant figure out how you can keep your heel on the ground when using the clutch?????????? I mean, are you double jointed? my right heel touches the floor for the accelerator pedal but for the clutch my foot is totally off the floor as there is way too much travel in a clutch pedal to roock your heel on the floor to use the clutch properly.

You could try heel-toeing the break and accelerator with your right foot...

Hey buddy, this should help http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te...oeshifting.htm
Should save you a lot of repeated explinations that I foresee spamming this thread :P

thought i'd ask another question...

is there anything wrong with skipping a gear when changing? eg. like from 3rd to 5th? or from 2nd to 4th....or even from 2nd to 5th?

like sometimes i accelerate hard in 2nd up to like 70-80kms, and then i just shift into 5th and continue to cruise at a low rev...?

no i cant see anything wrong with doing that...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

thought i'd ask another question...

is there anything wrong with skipping a gear when changing? eg. like from 3rd to 5th? or from 2nd to 4th....or even from 2nd to 5th?

like sometimes i accelerate hard in 2nd up to like 70-80kms, and then i just shift into 5th and continue to cruise at a low rev...?

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It wears out your synchros. Your 2nd gear spins roughly at 5000rpm at 70km/h. You put it into 5th, which at 70km/h is 2500rpm. Your synchros will bear the brunt of slowing down the input shaft from 5000 to 2500rpm and wear out quicker.

You can stop it from wearing and still shift from 2nd to 5th. Just press the clutch pedal, shift from 2nd to neutral, release the clutch when in neutral and then press it in again and shift to 5th. The act of releasing the clutch in neutral will slow down the input shaft so that it is closer to 2500rpm and can help reduce wear on the synchros.

hey thought i include something i learnt manual from before i got my ek4.

www.standardshift.com

nice site with a forum and videos to teach you :D

gl with your manual driving boys.

ps. quick question, how much are thrust bearing and synchros to replace?

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Originally Posted by aaronng

It wears out your synchros. Your 2nd gear spins roughly at 5000rpm at 70km/h. You put it into 5th, which at 70km/h is 2500rpm. Your synchros will bear the brunt of slowing down the input shaft from 5000 to 2500rpm and wear out quicker.

You can stop it from wearing and still shift from 2nd to 5th. Just press the clutch pedal, shift from 2nd to neutral, release the clutch when in neutral and then press it in again and shift to 5th. The act of releasing the clutch in neutral will slow down the input shaft so that it is closer to 2500rpm and can help reduce wear on the synchros.

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oooh interesting...coz i sometimes feel buggered to change gears like 70km/hr in 2nd gear, then change to 3rd, then 4th, AND finally 5th....coz i didn't see a use for it if i was going to just be travelling at the same speed i was at the end of 2nd gear....

if u don't mind me asking aaron, how do u know so much about automotive mechanics?? i'm such a n00b when it comes to the workings of engines...although these forums are teaching me ALOT! :D

I Use all those techniques uve talked bout corn flakes, depends on the driving situation, sumtimes i get lazy though with the clutch and end up crunching gears... worst sound ever, its all about timing in manuals

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aaronng

It wears out your synchros. Your 2nd gear spins roughly at 5000rpm at 70km/h. You put it into 5th, which at 70km/h is 2500rpm. Your synchros will bear the brunt of slowing down the input shaft from 5000 to 2500rpm and wear out quicker.

You can stop it from wearing and still shift from 2nd to 5th. Just press the clutch pedal, shift from 2nd to neutral, release the clutch when in neutral and then press it in again and shift to 5th. The act of releasing the clutch in neutral will slow down the input shaft so that it is closer to 2500rpm and can help reduce wear on the synchros.

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Very interesting information - I did not realise that.

What sort of life shortening are we talking about? Ie how much wear is taking place to the input shaft?

Releasing the clutch in netural will give the input shaft the speed of the engine.

Instead of wasting your time letting the clutch out and press again, just WAIT a little bit while your on the clutch. The input shaft will slow down on it's own, you don't need to help it.

On another note, the clutch is a CONSUMABLE. The throwout bearing is CHEAP and EASY to replace. It's far more important to have correct driving style than bad manner to save a buck or two.

Why don't you stop braking so you don't use brake pads?

Don't press the clutch in a corner, stay in gear and modulate speed with throttle. And don't change gears in a corner either (unless its a slow corner from a take off for example).

here's another annoyance i found...


situation:

approaching a t-section (intersection) - you are the one giving way, you want to turn right...

now i don't come to a complete stop when i approach these intersections, so sometimes i continue to roll and just turn right staying in 2nd gear that i downshifted to when i approached the intersection...

what i find is that i get a bit of engine shudder in 2nd gear!

of course, i would have liked to be in first gear, but could not put it into first whilst still rolling that little bit as i'm about to make the turn...i would have crunched the gears if i pushed it into 1st...

so....2nd gear too weak to make the turn - engine shudder, so i ride the clutch a bit to avoid this

1st, can't get into, it will crunch...

so, does anyone have a solution? i don't want to come to a complete stop, nor do i want to ride the clutch or have any engine shudder...



also, how does engine shudder feck up ur car? what does it wear out y0?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

1st, can't get into, it will crunch...

so, does anyone have a solution? i don't want to come to a complete stop, nor do i want to ride the clutch or have any engine shudder...



also, how does engine shudder feck up ur car? what does it wear out y0?

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I just put it into neutral, blip the throttle and clutch in and push into 1st. This is double clutching. Using this, I can put it into 1st even at 40km/h if I wanted to (I have tried. LOL).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

what i find is that i get a bit of engine shudder in 2nd gear!

of course, i would have liked to be in first gear, but could not put it into first whilst still rolling that little bit as i'm about to make the turn...i would have crunched the gears if i pushed it into 1st...

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no you wouldnt have crunched the gears if you put it into first. unless of course you didnt have the clutch all the way in
what you will experience is what feels like a reluctance of the gearbox to go into 1st because the syncros are working too hard ie the input shaft is spinning too quickly for the speed of the gear you are trying to select (1st)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by corn_flakes

so....2nd gear too weak to make the turn - engine shudder, so i ride the clutch a bit to avoid this

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the GEAR is not too weak, the ENGINE is not producing enough torque at this rpm to move the car.

if your engine is shuddering, you shouldnt be in that gear.
you would have to be below 1500rpm to get serious shudder (thats just an approximation)

riding the clutch in this situation is not an effective way to solve the problem


there are two possible solutions to your problem:

1) come to a complete stop

2) double clutch into first. ie from second gear, depress the clutch, shift to neutral, release the clutch, depress the throttle, depress the clutch, shift into first.

its not as difficult or complex as it may appear

for situation like this... i rev match into 1st gear. for those that has been in car my when i do that will know that there has neva been any single crunch on my downshift. and i think its alot better in emergency situation or b4 taking turns... as u want to minimise the period of time car not full in gear. rev match is the best option

^i can vouch for that!

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Originally Posted by |N|

for situation like this... i rev match into 1st gear. for those that has been in car my when i do that will know that there has neva been any single crunch on my downshift. and i think its alot better in emergency situation or b4 taking turns... as u want to minimise the period of time car not full in gear. rev match is the best option

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If by rev-matching you are talking about simply matching the expected engine speed in the new gear with some throttle then your solution is idiotic for two reasons. If not, just for one.

a) Doing this is not saving your syncro's, nor making their job any easier. You are matching engine speed, not input shaft speed, which is needed to get into first gear at speed in tired gearboxes.
b) A double clutch into first executed by anyone with half a brain can be done before you can say who's ya daddy.

You havn't had any crunches because either

a) You don't drive as hardcore as you think you do
b) Your gearbox is better than everyone elses
c) All of the above

Good day.

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Originally Posted by string

If by rev-matching you are talking about simply matching the expected engine speed in the new gear with some throttle then your solution is idiotic for two reasons. If not, just for one.

a) Doing this is not saving your syncro's, nor making their job any easier. You are matching engine speed, not input shaft speed, which is needed to get into first gear at speed in tired gearboxes.
b) A double clutch into first executed by anyone with half a brain can be done before you can say who's ya daddy.

You havn't had any crunches because either

a) You don't drive as hardcore as you think you do
b) Your gearbox is better than everyone elses
c) All of the above

Good day.

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http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...xton/owned.jpg

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Originally Posted by string

If by rev-matching you are talking about simply matching the expected engine speed in the new gear with some throttle then your solution is idiotic for two reasons. If not, just for one.

a) Doing this is not saving your syncro's, nor making their job any easier. You are matching engine speed, not input shaft speed, which is needed to get into first gear at speed in tired gearboxes.
b) A double clutch into first executed by anyone with half a brain can be done before you can say who's ya daddy.

You havn't had any crunches because either

a) You don't drive as hardcore as you think you do
b) Your gearbox is better than everyone elses
c) All of the above

Good day.

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You my friend, need a fcukn root!

































That is all!

everyone has their different styles, techniques adn ideas about whats right and wrong, if your really concerned best thing to do is to get a driving instructor to talk tyou through it whilst u drive, its hard to listen to be people left right and centre and remember it whilst your on the road! my 2c

Quote:

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Originally Posted by string

If by rev-matching you are talking about simply matching the expected engine speed in the new gear with some throttle then your solution is idiotic for two reasons. If not, just for one.

a) Doing this is not saving your syncro's, nor making their job any easier. You are matching engine speed, not input shaft speed, which is needed to get into first gear at speed in tired gearboxes.
b) A double clutch into first executed by anyone with half a brain can be done before you can say who's ya daddy.

You havn't had any crunches because either

a) You don't drive as hardcore as you think you do
b) Your gearbox is better than everyone elses
c) All of the above

Good day.

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a) yes i dun ... i dun hoon on the street as much as u
b) thats a good point... yea a stock d16y4 Gbox is better then most other gbox... good one.
c) u really need a root. for calling someone an idiot for posting their personally driving behaviour.
d) IMO i dun think double clutching can down shift quicker then heal and toe.



that is all

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Originally Posted by Mr_will

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...xton/owned.jpg

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do u know how to drive?
or just simply agreeing with someone?

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Originally Posted by string

If by rev-matching you are talking about simply matching the expected engine speed in the new gear with some throttle then your solution is idiotic for two reasons. If not, just for one.

a) Doing this is not saving your syncro's, nor making their job any easier. You are matching engine speed, not input shaft speed, which is needed to get into first gear at speed in tired gearboxes.
b) A double clutch into first executed by anyone with half a brain can be done before you can say who's ya daddy.

You havn't had any crunches because either

a) You don't drive as hardcore as you think you do
b) Your gearbox is better than everyone elses
c) All of the above

Good day.

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Not every gearbox needs to be double-clutched into 1st. Granted it will wear the synchros if only a rev match is used, but because 1st gear synchros are used less than the other gears, you won't notice the wear by the time your gearbox needs a recon. When you are stopped and go into 1st, the RPM change is only from 700 to 0rpm. Contrast that to the 2nd gear and 3rd gear synchros where the RPM change is from 3000 to 1500rpm. Plus, you usually shift between 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th gears more often than the 1st gear.

If you have a gearbox that can't get into first, it is usually a symptom of a problem other than the synchros. Synchro wear only shows up in 2nd and 3rd gears unless you track the car alot and downshift into 1st all the time. On the street, the number of times you downshift into 1st is not enough to totally wear out the synchros to the point where it needs a replacement.

Take a chill pill... No one is attacking you. Why do you want to attack them first? Just tell them your driving/shifting style, advantages and disadvanges. Then it is up to them to decide if they want to follow it.

hmm...

i wouldn't argue with douchebags...esp. on internet forums...

it just encourages them to reply with 'hardc0r3' reply postings...

there's a reason why they post stuff like that, they crave the attention they never receive in real life :wave:

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Originally Posted by Mr_will

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...xton/owned.jpg

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This is a noob forum for info. Not the lounge... No spam pls!

I'm just curious. What is the technical advantage of double clutching over just blipping when you have the clutch fully down? What is the practical purpose of being in neutral with the clutch fully depressed when you blip?

Reason I ask is because occasionaly I have a lazy downshift and just blip with the clutch fully down with the stick in neutral (as per the double clutching habbit), but don't actually allow neatural to be engaged (release the clutch) before blipping and then later shifting (the second "clutching"). - And I find this still rev-matches fine and still eliminates the drivetrain jolts associated with the absense of rev-matching.

This IS a noob section so all answers and comments should be written with that in mind. You don't see teachers insulting the intelligence of their students if they misunderstand something, do you?

Personally I don't shift down to 1st, unless I'm almost stopped, or stopped. I usually use 2nd gear for corners...unless I'm going fast, and know i can get around in 3rd....

I usually brake before corner change into 2nd turn corner - with a bit of throttle, and then start accelerating.

anyway keep practicing what works for you.

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Originally Posted by Dylanamus

I'm just curious. What is the technical advantage of double clutching over just blipping when you have the clutch fully down? What is the practical purpose of being in neutral with the clutch fully depressed when you blip?

Reason I ask is because occasionaly I have a lazy downshift and just blip with the clutch fully down with the stick in neutral (as per the double clutching habbit), but don't actually allow neatural to be engaged (release the clutch) before blipping and then later shifting (the second "clutching"). - And I find this still rev-matches fine and still eliminates the drivetrain jolts associated with the absense of rev-matching.

This IS a noob section so all answers and comments should be written with that in mind. You don't see teachers insulting the intelligence of their students if they misunderstand something, do you?

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If the clutch is down, then blipping it does not speed up the input shaft. So essentially you just rev matching. When the input shaft speed is not the same as the gear speed, then the synchros work to speed up or slow down the input shaft. Think of the synchros as a mini clutch that rides 1/2 way so it matches the speed before going into gear.

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Originally Posted by |N|

do u know how to drive?
or just simply agreeing with someone?

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i was pointing out that string owned someone. its not a difficult concept. really, it isnt.

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Originally Posted by Mr_will

i was pointing out that string owned someone. its not a difficult concept. really, it isnt.

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keep the spam away i think thats enf... some ppl r actually wanting to get other's options not to see keyboard hero flame ppl for wat they THINK is correct.

and ur post of that pic just looks simply like a spam unconstuctive post.
regards
nick

this and any forum is generally full of opinons , and not fact so lets not get carried away with " who owned who". Lets keep the replies constructive.

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Originally Posted by Dylanamus

I'm just curious. What is the technical advantage of double clutching over just blipping when you have the clutch fully down? What is the practical purpose of being in neutral with the clutch fully depressed when you blip?

Reason I ask is because occasionaly I have a lazy downshift and just blip with the clutch fully down with the stick in neutral (as per the double clutching habbit), but don't actually allow neatural to be engaged (release the clutch) before blipping and then later shifting (the second "clutching"). - And I find this still rev-matches fine and still eliminates the drivetrain jolts associated with the absense of rev-matching.

This IS a noob section so all answers and comments should be written with that in mind. You don't see teachers insulting the intelligence of their students if they misunderstand something, do you?

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The only purpose is to effectively nullify the work done by the syncro's.

Yes this is a noob section. If no one was here to harshly give the truth, you'd just have a whole pile of shit spat out all over the place and the forum would get stupider that it allready is. Also, insulting people on the internet is funny, especially when they do what qball and the other guy have done and go all e-thug on me and try to bring normal life into it. If you get so offended by words on a screen, i'd hate see your temper in the real world.

You guys should become psychics. It is amazing that you know exactally how I drive and my sex life, just from a few words on an internet forum! Brilliant work!

|N| I never mentioned my driving style, and this isn't about it. Double clutch not faster than heal-toe? They are two completely different techniques. Obviously a straight rev-match is going to be faster than a normal double-clutch. However, in a car where the syncro's are ****ed, you don't have a choice if you are keen for a decent speed gear change.

Your post stopped becomming personal driving style when you said that rev-matching was the best for the situation.

And in regard to your keyboard hero comment, you are as guilty as those you condemn. "You need a root" comes to mind. God damn you are a lady KILLER! One rev match and they suck your dick right?

who goes over speed humps in neutral?
and then when der wheel is over.. put on gear 1 and accelerate again..
heheh

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Originally Posted by TypeRice

who goes over speed humps in neutral?
and then when der wheel is over.. put on gear 1 and accelerate again..
heheh

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lol dont need to put it to gear one to go over a hump just leave it in wat ever gear ur in and brake and gear down tehn go over it

oh .. coz i stop till nearly 0km/h when i go over speed humps..
i gotta do an S shape movement to get over dem speed humps.. coz my car has bodykit and is very low.. so if i leave in gear and go over speed hump.. it feels like its gonna stall sumtimes.. so i put in neautral.. and den gear 1 and move it over a bit at a time ...hehehehe

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Originally Posted by TypeRice

oh .. coz i stop till nearly 0km/h when i go over speed humps..
i gotta do an S shape movement to get over dem speed humps.. coz my car has bodykit and is very low.. so if i leave in gear and go over speed hump.. it feels like its gonna stall sumtimes.. so i put in neautral.. and den gear 1 and move it over a bit at a time ...hehehehe

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If you have to go so slow that the car stalls in 1st, then it's fine to be in neutral since you are at such low speeds anyway.

The clutch is there for this purpose, so use it. You have much more control over where your car goes when you are in gear, not just rolling; I would certainly like to be in control if I had a big rice-kit to scrape.

If you are about to stall, put the clutch in before. Going to neutral is just wasting time as you are only doing more work.

ahh i wish my car would let me put it in first once im rolling.
anyone know why not?? i tried dbl clutching.
and even hard to go into first while im idle unless im on a up/down hill or rolling alil.
synchro? gearbox alignment??

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Originally Posted by EK4R

ahh i wish my car would let me put it in first once im rolling.
anyone know why not?? i tried dbl clutching.
and even hard to go into first while im idle unless im on a up/down hill or rolling alil.
synchro? gearbox alignment??

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You double clutched correctly? Test by getting into 1st with the engine off. If it is still difficult, then check your linkages.

May have been covered already but when approaching corners (I'm talking your regular suburban 90 degree corners where little kids or oldies could be crossing) slow down early and change down into second. You should try to be in gear as much as possible.

I'll tell you a story from my experience that made me realise the importance of this. Once I was approaching a corner that I needed to take. I was on the main road turning off so I put the brakes on, pushed the clutch pedal down and started to go around the corner, essentially in neutral as I had not down shifted and put the car into gear, as I was rolling around the corner a car from the small street I was turning into came out and as I was going a little fast without the car in gear I had no control of my car as I couldn't use the accelerator to pull the car around and it kind of wandered through the corner (major understeer). Luckily the other car saw me coming around the corner and slowed down to give me plenty of room to hall my hatchie around the corner, but it could have easily ended in a head-on collision. Had I been in gear I could have pulled my car around the corner much more effectively.

It's all well and good to be able to use advance driving techniques but best bet is to take it easy and try to prepare the car and your actions for the road ahead. When you think about it even the best racing drivers in their race spec vehicles have accidents so is it realistic to think that we, with all our driving experience, will be able to avoid an accident by using these race techniques on our crappy public roads with people around, in a car that isn't set up like these race spec machines? I'm not trying to dis anyone and my hat's off to any successful racing car drivers among us, but I'm a young driver who is well within the statistics for young male drivers and it is just too easy to have accidents.

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Originally Posted by aaronng

You double clutched correctly? Test by getting into 1st with the engine off. If it is still difficult, then check your linkages.

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hmm i cant get into 1st no problems with the engine off, clutch in and in with 1st but while im moving i cant and im pretty sure i dbl clutch properly (2nd > clutch in > N > clutch out > clutch in > 1st?)

also explain could anyone explain my idle problem?? cant get into first when im at a full stop. i have to put it into some other gear first then into first. feels super gritty if i try to put into first gear first.

what is double clutch???

r u meant to double clutch when changing gears ? =O ???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EK4R

hmm i cant get into 1st no problems with the engine off, clutch in and in with 1st but while im moving i cant and im pretty sure i dbl clutch properly (2nd > clutch in > N > clutch out > clutch in > 1st?)

also explain could anyone explain my idle problem?? cant get into first when im at a full stop. i have to put it into some other gear first then into first. feels super gritty if i try to put into first gear first.

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When at full stop, try pressing your clutch in, count to 3 and then put it into first.

As for your 2nd to 1st shift with double clutching, you need to revmatch once when the clutch is out in neutral before you clutch in and put it into 1st.

cheers will try both.
mind explaining why the 3 seconds??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EK4R

cheers will try both.
mind explaining why the 3 seconds??

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When in neutral and clutch out, the input shaft is connected to the engine and is spinning at your idle speed of 700-800rpm. If you clutch in and put it into 1st straight away, the synchros have to work to slow it from 700 rpm to 0rpm (the speed of the transmission).

Waiting 3 seconds with the clutch in allows the input shaft to slow down to almost 0rpm before shifting in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EK4R

hmm i cant get into 1st no problems with the engine off, clutch in and in with 1st but while im moving i cant and im pretty sure i dbl clutch properly (2nd > clutch in > N > clutch out > clutch in > 1st?)

also explain could anyone explain my idle problem?? cant get into first when im at a full stop. i have to put it into some other gear first then into first. feels super gritty if i try to put into first gear first.

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when i am driving stupid hard...and need to put it into first whilst moving/slowing down, say a u turn, this is what i do.

2nd
clutch in
heel toe (cos im on the brakes and dont want to stop braking)+ bump the accelerator, you have to bump it up quite high for first, not so much for the other gears.
shifter should slide quite easily into first if you have got the revs right
clutch out whilst revs still high
1st, then accelerate through...

and for the rest, what aaronng said, though 3 seconds might be a bit too long, it wont take long for the syncros to slow down so it doesnt grind...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aaronng

When at full stop, try pressing your clutch in, count to 3 and then put it into first.

As for your 2nd to 1st shift with double clutching, you need to revmatch once when the clutch is out in neutral before you clutch in and put it into 1st.

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tried that and my idle problem is gone!!! have to hold it for 2 sec or so.
damn thx alot aarong, helped me out again! :thumbsup: